How long does it take to build a champion?

saintswhodi · 01-25-2005, 12:15 PM

This is a key question to me. Many people say, we need to look at this position and this position and this one before we look at qb. My question is, how long does that process take? What we are talking about doing is getting a frugal free agency team to spend money on key positions AND to draft well when they have not shown the acumen to do so. SO let's say all goes as planned. We get Edge Hartwell, we get a decent LT, we draft a safety and away we go. These players are ALL learning a new system. If our coach doesn't get an extension, they may be learning another new one in a year depending on team success. The qb we have may be learning a new system. Meanwhile Joe Horn is getting older, Charles Grant needs a new contract, Stallworth needs a new contract, LeCharles needs a new contract, players that we did draft and who have performed will need to be extended. But we don't yet have a champion. So Joe Horn, who is right now the life of our offense retires. Because we are so keen on going after D, we have not addressed this need so it becomes a need in another season. McKenzie needs a new contract, but he is 30. Mitchell may or may not be the answer at safety so we may need to address that. So basically, we are talking about several seasons of fixing a D while offensive players retire or become cap casualties or get traded or whatever. SO then we have our D, maybe, but no O. And I would HATE to imagine Brooks without Joe. HATE IT. So we are looking at the minimum two seasons before we are fielding a respectable D as it appears Venturi may be hanging around for at least one more. We also need a DT, I forgot about that. So we will be addressing that after next seaosn if not this one.

Sorry about the rant, so here's my point. Why is it that whenever we talk about fixing this team, if anyone says QB he instantly gets reminded of 5 other positions someone feels there is a greater need for? I have a couple of people say we can win with this qb, I have heard NUMEROUS others say simply there isn't anyone else with his "talent" that we can get. But what I see is, for at least two more years we will be fixing this D. If McCarthy goes we get one new offense and if Haslett goes after another sub-par season we get another. Even supporters of our qb admit it is a scary proposition to have him learning a new offense and having us trying to win while he is doing that. So why wouldn't we fix qb sooner rather than later? While we still have Joe. While the draft is deep at key positions? I just don't understand. I don't see how bringing in two or 3 new players to our scheme will make us THAT much better in one year. Maybe some do. But I do see how fixing the qb position can make us a better TEAM immediately. No more false love, no more great qb sorry team, none of that. The locker room becomes a better place and people respect the players around them, not hear crickets while your qb speaks to the team before the most important game of the season but a newcomer,MM, gets a roaring response. Discension from you KEY position on the team has a trickle down effect. So someone tell me, if we don't address qb with urgency, how long will it take for us to build a champion?

dberce1 · 01-25-2005, 01:29 PM

Short answer: never.

The core group of guys we have now, won\'t be Saints in 4-5 years (if we still own the team). They will be retired, cut, traded, ect. With our GM and coaching staff, nothing will get accomplished. They keep \"building\" on this team, when pretty soon, the core they have been trying to build on is over the hill and underproductive. Then guess what time it is:

rebuild.

again.

fact-o-bake · 01-25-2005, 02:06 PM

Whodi. Aren\'t most teams in the NFL in similar situations. With free agency the way it is there are few players who stay anyhwhere for 5 seasons. There are weakneses on every team, and the good ones are able to get results with some average players at these spots with good coaching. I think there is a ton of luck involved with finding gems in the rough, and avoiding injuries. I guess my point is I don\'t think we\'re alone with these personnell decisions, and no matter how good you are, you will make mistakes in your pick-ups wether draft or free-agency.

FireVenturi · 01-25-2005, 02:15 PM

Whodi. Aren\'t most teams in the NFL in similar situations. With free agency the way it is there are few players who stay anyhwhere for 5 seasons. There are weakneses on every team, and the good ones are able to get results with some average players at these spots with good coaching. I think there is a ton of luck involved with finding gems in the rough, and avoiding injuries. I guess my point is I don\'t think we\'re alone with these personnell decisions, and no matter how good you are, you will make mistakes in your pick-ups wether draft or free-agency.

I agree, but i also feel we have more misses than hits!

saintswhodi · 01-25-2005, 02:38 PM

I think that\'s my point, to all of you. We keep talking about bringing in new guys at all these other positions but we ignore the one that has been a problem even when the other problems were minimal. The one who has made all the cuts. So because we didn\'t address it before now we ignore it? I also agree the core will not be hear another 4-5 years. THIS YEAR should have been a rebuilding year but people wanted to keep their jobs so they beat the teams we were losing to earlier. I even understand that. But if we know Joe is heading into his last legs, and we know players from recent drafts are gonna be coming up renewal, cut or trade, how does keeping a player that cause MORE turmoil on the team help us reach our goal? I agree with you dberce, if we continue this was, we will be rebuilding in 2-3 years. I also agree with you Venturi, much more hits than misses. So we get a few defensive players this year, then next year when we are 30th instead of 32nd, we again ignore Brooks and whatever problems he is having that year(cause there\'s always an excuse) and pick a couple more players, and watch key players leave. FOB, I don;t think most teams are in our situation. Name to me a team that has a qb who thinks he is great and isn\'t, but SAYS IT, and calls the team crap. Another team whose qb says theyare filled with false love. Anyone else in the league? I don\'t think so. Only here will that be tolerated from a player whose talent doesn\'t back up his mouth. So no all teams in this league do not have this problem. On the field play is not the only criteria to judge how much one player affects a team, if the people around the leader of the team don\'t wanna play with him, well, that is a huge problem for me that needs to be addressed, and soon.

GumboBC · 01-25-2005, 02:45 PM

if the people around the leader of the team don\'t wanna play with him, well, that is a huge problem for me that needs to be addressed, and soon

.

Got a link to ANY article that says that? Or even suggests that?

Cause I can find links to articles that say just the OPPOSITE.

You aren\'t going to win any arguements with things you dream up in your head. And unitl you provide SOME PROOF, that\'s what I think you are doing.

I\'m waiting on the PROOF, saintwhodi.

saintswhodi · 01-25-2005, 02:56 PM

All the PROOF I need was provided by A)Charles Grant wantng to kick his arse and B) the way he got ignored trying to give a speech before the Carolina game. WhoDat called that one. So if that isn\'t proof enough for you, well I\'ll leave it cause it could be painted on the side of the Superdome how much other players dislike the guy and you wouldn\'t believe it. How about Kyle Turley\'s comments about him after he left? Is that proof enough? You know what else I have proof of? We are mediocre with him. It has been a constant for the last 5 years, including the playoff year. I can recite the record before Leon again if you like. There\'s your proof. Where\'s your proof to the contrary?

GumboBC · 01-25-2005, 03:04 PM

No link? That\'s what I thought!!

Get back to me when you got some PROOF. Until then, happy flying......... :P

BrooksMustGo · 01-25-2005, 03:24 PM

No link? That\'s what I thought!!

Get back to me when you got some PROOF. Until then, happy flying......... :P

Not to put too fine a point on this.

I think the Charles Grant incident on the trip back from the Arizona loss that WhoDi is alluding to probably fits into the category of common knowledge for Saints fans and probably doesn\'t need to be documented since everyone who regularly posts here is well aware of the plane ride and Haslett even mentioned it in his weekly press conference.
But it shouldn\'t take 5 minutes to document either.

The Carolina team meeting is a little harder issue, but was reported in several souces and was discussed at length on this board.

I will agree that if WhoDi is making a claim, then the burden of proof is on him to provide evidence. However, any claims being made at to the current QB\'s elite-ness should also be similarly documented.

.02

GumboBC · 01-25-2005, 03:29 PM

The rift Between Brooks and Grant had NOTHING to do with ANYONE saying they didn\'t want to play with Brooks.

What happened was Brooks called out the \"defense\" and Grant took execption to that and then called out the OFFENSE, not Brooks.

I\'ve NEVER heard ONE player say they didn\'t want to play with Brooks.

Someone please provide me with ANYTHING and I\'ll be sure to check it out.

I\'m waiting???

01-25-2005, 12:15 PM	#1
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	How long does it take to build a champion? This is a key question to me. Many people say, we need to look at this position and this position and this one before we look at qb. My question is, how long does that process take? What we are talking about doing is getting a frugal free agency team to spend money on key positions AND to draft well when they have not shown the acumen to do so. SO let's say all goes as planned. We get Edge Hartwell, we get a decent LT, we draft a safety and away we go. These players are ALL learning a new system. If our coach doesn't get an extension, they may be learning another new one in a year depending on team success. The qb we have may be learning a new system. Meanwhile Joe Horn is getting older, Charles Grant needs a new contract, Stallworth needs a new contract, LeCharles needs a new contract, players that we did draft and who have performed will need to be extended. But we don't yet have a champion. So Joe Horn, who is right now the life of our offense retires. Because we are so keen on going after D, we have not addressed this need so it becomes a need in another season. McKenzie needs a new contract, but he is 30. Mitchell may or may not be the answer at safety so we may need to address that. So basically, we are talking about several seasons of fixing a D while offensive players retire or become cap casualties or get traded or whatever. SO then we have our D, maybe, but no O. And I would HATE to imagine Brooks without Joe. HATE IT. So we are looking at the minimum two seasons before we are fielding a respectable D as it appears Venturi may be hanging around for at least one more. We also need a DT, I forgot about that. So we will be addressing that after next seaosn if not this one. Sorry about the rant, so here's my point. Why is it that whenever we talk about fixing this team, if anyone says QB he instantly gets reminded of 5 other positions someone feels there is a greater need for? I have a couple of people say we can win with this qb, I have heard NUMEROUS others say simply there isn't anyone else with his "talent" that we can get. But what I see is, for at least two more years we will be fixing this D. If McCarthy goes we get one new offense and if Haslett goes after another sub-par season we get another. Even supporters of our qb admit it is a scary proposition to have him learning a new offense and having us trying to win while he is doing that. So why wouldn't we fix qb sooner rather than later? While we still have Joe. While the draft is deep at key positions? I just don't understand. I don't see how bringing in two or 3 new players to our scheme will make us THAT much better in one year. Maybe some do. But I do see how fixing the qb position can make us a better TEAM immediately. No more false love, no more great qb sorry team, none of that. The locker room becomes a better place and people respect the players around them, not hear crickets while your qb speaks to the team before the most important game of the season but a newcomer,MM, gets a roaring response. Discension from you KEY position on the team has a trickle down effect. So someone tell me, if we don't address qb with urgency, how long will it take for us to build a champion?

01-25-2005, 01:29 PM	#2
dberce1 Chuck Liddells Right Hand Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Prairieville, Louisiana Posts: 1,227	How long does it take to build a champion? Short answer: never. The core group of guys we have now, won\'t be Saints in 4-5 years (if we still own the team). They will be retired, cut, traded, ect. With our GM and coaching staff, nothing will get accomplished. They keep \"building\" on this team, when pretty soon, the core they have been trying to build on is over the hill and underproductive. Then guess what time it is: rebuild. again.

01-25-2005, 02:06 PM	#3
fact-o-bake 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 136	How long does it take to build a champion? Whodi. Aren\'t most teams in the NFL in similar situations. With free agency the way it is there are few players who stay anyhwhere for 5 seasons. There are weakneses on every team, and the good ones are able to get results with some average players at these spots with good coaching. I think there is a ton of luck involved with finding gems in the rough, and avoiding injuries. I guess my point is I don\'t think we\'re alone with these personnell decisions, and no matter how good you are, you will make mistakes in your pick-ups wether draft or free-agency.
fact-o-bake 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 136

01-25-2005, 02:15 PM	#4
FireVenturi Cold as Ice! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Da Big Easy Posts: 2,978	How long does it take to build a champion? Whodi. Aren\'t most teams in the NFL in similar situations. With free agency the way it is there are few players who stay anyhwhere for 5 seasons. There are weakneses on every team, and the good ones are able to get results with some average players at these spots with good coaching. I think there is a ton of luck involved with finding gems in the rough, and avoiding injuries. I guess my point is I don\'t think we\'re alone with these personnell decisions, and no matter how good you are, you will make mistakes in your pick-ups wether draft or free-agency. I agree, but i also feel we have more misses than hits!

01-25-2005, 02:38 PM	#5
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	How long does it take to build a champion? I think that\'s my point, to all of you. We keep talking about bringing in new guys at all these other positions but we ignore the one that has been a problem even when the other problems were minimal. The one who has made all the cuts. So because we didn\'t address it before now we ignore it? I also agree the core will not be hear another 4-5 years. THIS YEAR should have been a rebuilding year but people wanted to keep their jobs so they beat the teams we were losing to earlier. I even understand that. But if we know Joe is heading into his last legs, and we know players from recent drafts are gonna be coming up renewal, cut or trade, how does keeping a player that cause MORE turmoil on the team help us reach our goal? I agree with you dberce, if we continue this was, we will be rebuilding in 2-3 years. I also agree with you Venturi, much more hits than misses. So we get a few defensive players this year, then next year when we are 30th instead of 32nd, we again ignore Brooks and whatever problems he is having that year(cause there\'s always an excuse) and pick a couple more players, and watch key players leave. FOB, I don;t think most teams are in our situation. Name to me a team that has a qb who thinks he is great and isn\'t, but SAYS IT, and calls the team crap. Another team whose qb says theyare filled with false love. Anyone else in the league? I don\'t think so. Only here will that be tolerated from a player whose talent doesn\'t back up his mouth. So no all teams in this league do not have this problem. On the field play is not the only criteria to judge how much one player affects a team, if the people around the leader of the team don\'t wanna play with him, well, that is a huge problem for me that needs to be addressed, and soon.

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01-25-2005, 02:45 PM	#6
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	How long does it take to build a champion? if the people around the leader of the team don\'t wanna play with him, well, that is a huge problem for me that needs to be addressed, and soon . Got a link to ANY article that says that? Or even suggests that? Cause I can find links to articles that say just the OPPOSITE. You aren\'t going to win any arguements with things you dream up in your head. And unitl you provide SOME PROOF, that\'s what I think you are doing. I\'m waiting on the PROOF, saintwhodi.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-25-2005, 02:56 PM	#7
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	How long does it take to build a champion? All the PROOF I need was provided by A)Charles Grant wantng to kick his arse and B) the way he got ignored trying to give a speech before the Carolina game. WhoDat called that one. So if that isn\'t proof enough for you, well I\'ll leave it cause it could be painted on the side of the Superdome how much other players dislike the guy and you wouldn\'t believe it. How about Kyle Turley\'s comments about him after he left? Is that proof enough? You know what else I have proof of? We are mediocre with him. It has been a constant for the last 5 years, including the playoff year. I can recite the record before Leon again if you like. There\'s your proof. Where\'s your proof to the contrary?

01-25-2005, 03:04 PM	#8
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	How long does it take to build a champion? No link? That\'s what I thought!! Get back to me when you got some PROOF. Until then, happy flying......... :P
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-25-2005, 03:24 PM	#9
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	How long does it take to build a champion? No link? That\'s what I thought!! Get back to me when you got some PROOF. Until then, happy flying......... :P Not to put too fine a point on this. I think the Charles Grant incident on the trip back from the Arizona loss that WhoDi is alluding to probably fits into the category of common knowledge for Saints fans and probably doesn\'t need to be documented since everyone who regularly posts here is well aware of the plane ride and Haslett even mentioned it in his weekly press conference. But it shouldn\'t take 5 minutes to document either. The Carolina team meeting is a little harder issue, but was reported in several souces and was discussed at length on this board. I will agree that if WhoDi is making a claim, then the burden of proof is on him to provide evidence. However, any claims being made at to the current QB\'s elite-ness should also be similarly documented. .02
	http://www.blackandgold.net/site/signature/buddysig.jpg

01-25-2005, 03:29 PM	#10
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	How long does it take to build a champion? The rift Between Brooks and Grant had NOTHING to do with ANYONE saying they didn\'t want to play with Brooks. What happened was Brooks called out the \"defense\" and Grant took execption to that and then called out the OFFENSE, not Brooks. I\'ve NEVER heard ONE player say they didn\'t want to play with Brooks. Someone please provide me with ANYTHING and I\'ll be sure to check it out. I\'m waiting???
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616