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i\"d do a brooks for carr straight up..carr is a better qb on a much worse team.

i\'d love to land brees..but that isn\'t happening..

I think our best bet would be to get say henson and a pick or bledsoe/griese type and develop their replacement.

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So almighty Gumbo, tell me what our record would have been had we played 8 games without Horn? And then throw in McKenizie for three more. Wanna venture a guess what our record woulda been? I will, 4-12. You do know Moss was hurt for the Vikes right? He went down in our game. He STILL wasn\'t healthy for the playoff game. You do know their best secondary player Winfield was out 2-3 games right? Ouch is right. Hard to argue when you don\'t know the facts. But i\'ll keep giving them to you. Also, Vikes in the playoffs, us not. Yeah, I am sure they were jealous of us. :xxrotflmao:

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baron, I would trade AB for about half the league straight up, but definitely Carr.

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Well, we didn\'t have MM at the beginning of the year so it\'s kinda like we already missed our best secondary player for more than just 2-3 games.

Horn was injured for many games but didn\'t miss one.

I could only hope that Stallworth might have stepped up and made some more plays. Hope.

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We DO agree on that Scotty. Stallworth could have stepped up more, but with all the injuries he has had, this is honestly like his second year. I am glad he played the whole season, but he DEFINITELY needs to step up. Big time.

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Anyone who would not trade AB straaight up for Eli couldn\'t possibly be a true Saint fan, and, IMHO, doesn\'t know too much about football, really. Eli is from New Orleans, and just happens to be the son of a Wall of Famer. He is also the brother of Peyton Manning. If you are judging Eli by his record this year, then obviously you just read the scores in the paper and don\'t have a clue as to how he really looked. You also probably never saw him play once for Ole Miss. Some of the things I read in this forum are mind-boggling. But, if you are one of those who wouldn\'t want him here, you don\'t have to worry. There is no doubt in my mind that if NO would have had the first pick in the draft, that he would\'ve told them the same thing he told the Chargers...thanks, but no thanks.

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I agree with what you saod LB about trading AB for Eli straight up. If you don\'t wanna pull that deal, you obviously have not seen Eli play. He would put Brooks to shame. Give that kid a decent team, and he will surpass Brooks also, like Palmer and Carr and Leftwich and probably the rookies that are out there this year.

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Excuse me for having an opinion. It\'s just that I\'m not ready to annoint him a great NFL QB because of his lineage and his hometown. I don\'t now for sure, but you might be suffering from hero worship a little bit here. You did author that post that thanks Archie and Favre\'s dad, right?

Oh, the \"true saints fan\" argument. Really? You really want to be the one to define what a true fan is? I guess the next thing you\'re gonna tell me is that you\'ve been watching the Saints for 37 years and that gives you some kind of knowledge I can\'t possbly have since I\'ve only been watching since the 80s. That statement blows, LB.

I\'ve watched a couple games of Eli at Ole\' Miss and I wasn\'t really impressed. In contrast, I watched a couple games with Peyton at Tenn and saw a great college QB. I\'m not saying Eli wont be a star, but it\'s too early to tell.

Now, I didn\'t see Eli play one game this year, but I\'m pretty sure that even Aikman while going 1-15 in his rookie season (i know he didn\'t start them all) was able to hit at least one of his top WRs for a TD that first year. Did Eli? OOOHHH, I\'m sorry. No bonus points awarded.

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Now I am not one to question anyone\'s level of fanship to this team, as I feel we are all TRUE fans or we wouldn\'t be on this site. What I wish is that people would pause just two seconds before they post an argument. Scotty, do you think that throwing to HALL OF FAME WR Michael Irvin helped Aikman to throw a TD to a WR? The majority of their line was in place too. They got Emmitt the next year and he led all rookies in the NFL in rushing and TDs. You forget also Warner was under center for 9 games and he couldn\'t get a TD out of those WRs either. Eli only had 7 games to work a miracle with that crap, again, BECAUSE THE TEAM DI DNOT WANT TO GET WARNER KILLED. And they STILL were a decent defense from beating the number one team in the NFL. Come on man. You have better stuff than that. That was easy. ;)

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Nah, I think Emmitt and Troy made the Hall of Fame WR a Hall of Fame WR. Not to mention the refs completely ignored that he\'s the pushoff king of the NFL, but that\'s all for another thread on another forum. It might have been a bad example but it\'s the right sentiment.

Now, you\'ve realy got to explain this to me. If they were worried about Warner getting killed, why would they put in the future at QB to get killed? I would rather see Warner go down than Eli, if I\'m the Giants HC or GM.

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Why not? Look at David Carr his first year compared to his second. He got creamed every game and look what it did to his confidence in the pocket. Look at the progress he has made from year one to year two. Warner doesn\'t have it anymore, no point leaving your future on the bench when he could receive quality time on the field.

Eli is going to be a great quarterback, it\'s in his genes and he showed flashes of it throughout the season. He had a great college career also. One reason why he struggled so much was because Toomer was out for most of the season along with Shockey being hurt from time to time. Look at the receiver\'s he was throwing to at year\'s end. Can anyone name 3 of them without looking it up? I think not.

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I think you kinda missed the point. Being from NO is not going to make him great. But, you would think, that someone who is a Saint fan would kinda like the idea of having a hometown kid playing for them.

The thing is, I am not alone in my opinion of Eli. The GM of the NYG\'s gave up a bunch of draft picks to get him....but, what do they know. They probably should have checked with you before they made such a drastic mistake, right. Let\'s see, now what did we give up to get AB....maybe a cup of coffee and a doughnut...I can\'t remember. I wonder what we could get for him now?

I think you also missed the point of my other thread, also, but, that doesn\'t surprise me. I was merely pointing out that having the luck of the draw and growing up near NO, I was destined to be frustrated by a franchise that has done nothing but established itself as the worst franchise in professional sports history. If not for these guys providing me with someone else to follow, I would never be anything but disappointed. You can call it hero worship if you want...I don\'t have a problem with being called that when the person involved is someone the caliber of Archie Manning. Worshiping AB, on the other hand, now that is frightening.

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I didn\'t miss your point in the \"Thank You\" thread. I may have missed your point in the above post and made am incorrect correlation.

So, maybe the Giants are just desparate enough to take a chance on Eli even though they\'re not sure he\'s all that. They overpaid either way which indicates to me they were looking for star power as much as a good QB. I\'m not leaving anything to the \"professionals.\" 31 of them fail to win the superbowl every year...just like me. :D I\'m not alone in my opinion of Eli eiither so we\'re even.

You did, however, say that anyone who didn\'t want the Saints to get Eli isn\'t a true fan and doesn\'t know anything about football. To back this up 3 of your 4 arguments were hometown and lineage. I personally disagree with bringing in a local boy just cuz he\'s local.

For example, we had gubanitorial elections a year or so ago and there was a guy running that was from Northeast La, like me. Now, I wasn\'t going to vote for him because I believed there were better cnadidates available. Many of my friends though were going to vote for him. When asked why they\'d reposnd \"cuz he\'s from up here.\" To me, that\'s a rediculous way to pick a leader just as it\'s rediculous to pick a football player based on his hometown. It may sell tickets,but that\'s all.

Lastly, I hope you weren\'t accusing me of being an AB worshipper. I\'ve spent plenty of time pointing out his problems and deficiencies. I just don\'t get to do it because there are so many bashers it\'s not needed.

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I think it is pretty ridiculous to compare professional football to politics. I don\'t see too many people shelling out a hundred bucks to go sit in congress and cheer them on.

It is just my opinion, Scotty about the Saint fan thing. You see, there is no doubt in my mind that I am a Saint fan, hard core. Yeah, I know that I post a lot of negativity, but what good is there to say about the franchise. That doesn\'t mean that I won\'t be sitting right there every game next year, as always. You see, that is the reason that I would make such a statement. I can\'t imagine anyone being a Saint fan and not liking the idea of having Eli as a Saint....it goes all the way back to Archie, my hero, as you would say. But Archie is \"my hero\" because he was a Saint, and before that, a Rebel at Ole Miss. Why would I prefer someone from Virginia that has become an egotistical maniac over Eli. Yes, I am biased for my region of the country...I guess that\'s not the way it works nowadays. I would challenge you to give me one good reason why I should prefer to keep AB over Eli. Are we still riding the wave of the one playoff win. I will admit, that was huge, very huge, and like I stated before, at the time I was ready to write-in AB for president. A lot has happened since then, and not much of it has been good. But, look, I apologize. I should not have stated that you couldn\'t be much of a fan if you would prefer AB over Eli. I would have taken exception to that, myself, if I were you. I just hope you can half-way see where I am coming from. It is fine with me if we just agree to disagree on this particular topic.

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I\'ve got 9 reasons and none of them are playoff wins. AB has proven that he can quarterback a team to nine wins. Eli has not. Let me be clear...I do not know that Eli will not be a good QB. There are many experts who would say he wasn\'t worth a #1 overall pick and wont be Peyton\'s second coming. We\'ll just have to see, but we have seen Aaron get 9 wins and 8 twice with a horrible D in tow. That should mean that even as stupid as he plays, if we had a better D we should expect 10 wins. Just my opinion.

As for the politics reference, it wasn\'t a comparison but an illustration. You may find it rediculous, but I find it rediculous to attach added value to a player simply because of where he\'s from or who his family is.

Let me put it this way. If we could quanitify Eli into # of wins, say 9 per year, and we had an opportunity to get a 10 win per year QB (anybody but AB.) I get the feeling you still take Eli just cuz he\'s from N.O. and Archie\'s son and give up that win each year. Wouldn\'t you?

It may be rediculous but I want the guy who\'s going to produce more wins.

Let\'s not agree to disagree....that takes all the fun out of the debate. ;)

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Whodi, the funny thing is that if I were to come in here and use AB\'s stats to help argue how good he is, you\'d quickly refer to the team\'s record and say something like \"he\'s still a .500 QB\". Yet you wanna use Daunte\'s MVP-like stats to try to convince me how much better he is than AB, when he also finished the regular season at .500 and didn\'t even earn his way into the playoffs. Furthermore, you forget that AB\'s best weapon (Duece) was hurt for MORE than half of the season. I guess that counts for absolutely nothing in your book...


Answer these questions for me Whodi:

Between Cullpepper and Brooks, who has a season inwhich he threw more INTs than TDs?

Who has two seasons inwhich he threw less than 20 TDs?

Who has posted the worst record while starting for a full season?

Who is more durable and has started every game since he took over the starting position?

Who has posted more wins over the last 3 seasons?


I think the answers may astonish you.

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There is absolutely no doubt that being Archie\'s son and being from NO is a huge part of why I said what I said. Isn\'t that what being a fan is all about? This is not some second-rate player we are talking about here, however. This is a kid that has broken just about every record that there was to break at Ole Miss. Don\'t tell me that that is not saying much, when you talk about players before him like Charlie Conerly, Glenn Griffing, Jake Gibbs, Norris Weese, and, yes Archie himself. This is the overall first player picked in the NFL draft we are talking about, and it wasn\'t me that called the Chargers and said, \"hey, man, I think you should pick Eli.\" It also wasn\'t me that called the Giants and said, \"Hey, I think you should trade away next years first roudn pick to get Eli away from the Chargers...because I like him so much.\" You say there are experts out there that didn\'t think he was worth a first round pick...who are these experts you are referring to, or did you just kinda pull that out of the air? I could counter that with people, such as John Gruden that said that they thought he was more talented than Peyton. I don\'t think your argument would hold much water if you were sitting on the panel with Bradshaw, Howie, JB, and the rest. In fact, I think they would probably laugh you right off the stage. I mean, have you really given much thought to what you are saying here. And, finally, you give AB so much credit for being a QB that has won nine whole games in a season. Only nine. I would think that that would be a negative thing to say about him...but, that\'s just me.

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Nice try Buddens. Has AB ever thrown 39 TDS in a season? Those stats you found were hilarious. Way to pick and choose. Now let\'s get to the important stats that matter. CAREER PASSER RATING - AB 81.5 or some such nonsense. CULPEPPER - 93.2. I wonder who is better? Daunte has 129 TDS and 74 INTS since 2000. AB has 106 and 67. Hhhmmm think I will take the 23 more TDS. AB - 16274 yards since 2000 Daunte - 18598. Edge Daunte again. Daunte 2329 yards RUSHING with 28 TOUCHDOWNS. AB 1129 RUSHING yards with 11 TDS. Yeah, I can see why you would pick AB over Daunte. That is just ridiculous. Dude please give it up cause this is too one-sided. You would get laughed off any other forum on the planet for saying you would take AB over Daunte. I would put money on that. AB can\'t hold Daunte\'s jock. The clincher, Culpepper also has more playoffs wins than AB and has been to a championship game. Dude, just come off it.

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I guess you\'ll have to tell me. You\'re the one defining what a \"true fan\" is and is not, remember?

If I find some time this afternoon I\'ll go look up some old articles where the review of Eli wasn\'t as glowing as the Eli-lovers would like. I did post that only from my memories of last year\'s conversations so right now it is kinda out of the air. Do you have a link to your Jon Gruden paraphrase or are you just pulling that out of the air?

Which was how many more than Eli? You admit that you want him here for other reasons than his playing but wont admit that those very reasons might cause you to value him more than you should. Right now, he is nothing but potential. I know he didn\'t start the whole year, but what excuse are you gonna give me when he doesn\'t make 9 in \'05?

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JB...I like the way you think, but you can\'t straighten these guys out. They blame Brooks for EVERYTHING...EVERYTHING...and it only makes sense to those card-carrying members of the \"anybody but Brooks\" club.

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Well Whodi, looks as if we\'re both picking and choosing ;) ...

But I still find it ironic that things like passer ratings, TD passes, rushing and passing yards only matter when comparing another QB to AB, and never when one wants to show how much AB has done since he\'s been here. Only WINS matter then huh? I see you keep an extra face in your pocket at all times...

Speaking of WINS, the facts that Daunte has finished with the worst record out of the two while starting a full season and AB has more wins over the past 3 seasons isn\'t important all of a sudden? FASCINATING! Tell me Whodi, why is it that Daunte\'s stats matter, when just like AB, it seems a hard task for him to help get his team to atleast a 10 win season and a RESPECTABLE playoff birth without help from other teams? How is one any different from the other in that respect?...

I\'d pick AB over Daunte? Where did you see me say that? Please show me. I could\'ve sworn that I\'ve only been here arguing how much they are of the same calibur. I didn\'t put up those stats to say AB is better. I put them up to say that Daunte isn\'t \'neccessarily\' better, as you think. I like AB. But honestly, if I had a choice I\'d pick NEITHER. Both are \'middle of the road\' IMHO...

And would I really get laughed off any other forum if I were to choose AB over Daunte, really? I can\'t understand why you\'d say that. Especially when ultimately, both are guys who have won ABSOLUTELY NOTHING and are just as inconsistent as the other. Forget about how many playoff wins Daunte has and his NFC Championship appearance (which he lost). Do you think he goes around bragging about his 2 or 3 playoff wins when he doesn\'t have a championship ring on his finger? Did these players aspire to get into the league just for playoff appearances? I didn\'t think so.

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None, I don\'t feel the need to make excuses. Neither does Eli. So far, in all the interviews I have heard, he has been humble. He has been perfectly willing to accept the responsibilty for losses, saying things like, \"I need to improve.\" Your guy, on the other hand, will blame everyone besides himself, always having an excuse. If that is the kind of guy you like having around, then you should be in hog heaven with AB as the QB. Personally, I prefer the ones who don\'t feel the need to make excuses, because those are the guys who will be capable of seeing their mistakes and improve upon them. IMO, it takes a confident person to be able to display humility. Someone who thinks he is incapable of error will keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again. Sound familiar. But you have a right to your opinion, and a right to support whoever you choose...just as I do. I have given AB plenty of time to eliminate his \"rookie\" mistakes, but they just keep on coming. I think it would only be fair to give Eli that same amount of time. If, after five years he has not proven that he is a great QB, I will be the first one to recognize it and admit that I misjudged him. How much more time are you willing to give AB before you admit that you might be wrong?

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Dude, this is too easy. Find me an article where Daunte calls himself great and says his team sucks. Then find me a false love article from Daunte. Then find me one where Daunte was fighting with a teammate on a plane after a loss. Not only does Daunte\'s stats put AB to shame, HE HAS MORE PLAYOFF WINS AND MORE CHARACTER. So since Peyton Manning had a 3-13 season and AB hasn\'t I guess AB is better than Peyton. What about Troy Aikman? He was 1-15 once. I guess AB is better than him. That is the most ridiculous criteria for a stat I have ever heard. So cause Daunte has A SEASON worse than AB, somehow that makes AB better? Okay Bud. Drew Brees was 4-12 last year as a starter. I guess AB is better than him too, yet pretty much anyone who support AB would dump him for Brees. Ben was 15-1 as a starter this year, so he must be better than AB right? A rookie? Dude, just give it up, seriously. If you can\'t look at Daunte\'s numbers, HIS PLAYOFF WINS, and the fact he has been in A CHAMPIONSHIP GAME, and see he is better than Leon, you are jaded. Straight up. Also, you do know Daunte\'s team has been in the playoffs more time than AB\'s right? And AB went with Jeff Blake\'s team. Tell me when this gets tough.

Let me find some other qbs who must be worse than AB cause they HAD ONE WORSE SEASON. Tom Brady\'s Pats went 9-7 two years ago. So since AB\'s team was 10-6 on the coattails of Jeff Blake\'s 7-4, AB must be better than Brady too right? Steve Young never posted a winning season in Tampa. So AB must be better than him too since he has right? I believe the Pack may have been 8-8 once under Favre. But since AB has been 9-7, that makes him better right? Screw playoff wins or even getting there, who cares about that? Look at the shiny stats AB has since he has been a starter. Dude, seriously. Come on. If you believe AB and Daunte are of the same quality, I really just ought to leave this alone. That\'s hopeless.

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See, this is where you keep missing my point. I am not in the pro-AB crowd. I\'m just not in the anti-AB crowd either.

As anyone who has read a majority of my posts can tell you, I\'m all for bringing in a viable alternative for Brooks. By viable I mean, available and talented enough to be similarly as effective as Brooks in \'05. Now, I\'m positive that we\'ll disagree as to what talent level that is, but it\'s moot until we see who is actually available anyway. But if we do bring someone in of that caliber and make an improvement on D, then I\'ll see our team at 12-4 or better if that QB is one that has \"it\". Out of all of AB\'s problems, to me this is the most serious.

I also agree that Ab has had plenty of time. Just like I think Haslet has had plenty of time. I think the comments AB made are being blown out of proportion and are moot anyway. The biggest problems are the ones you mention as far as his on field errors. But I temper my wish to replace him with the understanding that we cannot afford to take a step backwards at QB either.

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The Daunte versus AB thing isn\'t fair to AB. AB has yet to play up to that level. He lacks Daunte\'s passion and flair. Not that Duante doesn\'t have his own problems or that AB isn\'t capable of matching his skills. AB just hasn\'t.

Ya\'ll can post stats for days. What really matters is you\'re overall impression of each QB\'s playing skill based on your own observations.

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So, if I am reading this correctly, we should not take a chance of upgrading at that position for fear of getting worse, and be willing to accept mediocrity until AB can\'t drag himself onto the field anymore, or, sign a FA that we know is going to be better than him even though that person may not exist on the market right now. Tell me, who out there would you accept that we would have a REALISTIC opportunity to sign?

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So I guess you\'re all for destroying what little we might have a QB all for the sake of getting rid of AB and taking a chance on anybody else?

Even though it\'s too early to see which QBs are actually going to be available, I\'ll mention a few. First, I think Brees would be awesome. I might even be willing to trade AB AND Howard for him, but I\'d have to think on that a while.

Otherwise, Volek is a good prospect, but I\'d rather have him come in and have an honest competition for the job against AB.

I think moat of all i\'d like to spend a first day pick on getting a rookie QB. Who i don\'t know.

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Anobody else? Funny, I don\'t remember ever having said that. That\'s not the first time you have put words in my mouth since we started this debate, but, hey, that\'s OK. I, too, would be in favor of drafting someone, but not as a back-up, because if he is going to be drafted to be the man to replace an inconsistent AB, then we might as well put him out there ASAP. It\'s not like we are going to the playoffs every year with AB at the helm, so what, in reality, would we be risking? He is not going to learn anything sitting on the bench, and I am certain that he won\'t have the benefit of AB\'s insight, because first of all, he doesn\'t have any. Secondly, he wouldn\'t share it even if he did...that\'s the kind of guy he is.

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I suppose you\'re not guilty of adding to what I\'ve said. You\'ll probably even come back with asking me for illustrations of that sort of thing from you rather than admitting it, but like you say, \"that\'s OK\". So, out of the REALISTIC available QBs who wouldn\'t you have to replace AB, if anyone?

Exactly. It\'s all AB\'s fault we haven\'t been to the playoffs. Nevermind that the D has been horrible the last two seasons (and haven\'t exactly been great since Haslets arrival). So you\'re saying, and God help me if I\'m putting words in your mouth, that you\'d rather start a rookie which conventional logic and history suggests would most likely kill next year\'s chances of making the playoffs rather than fix the defense and keep AB and hope for more.

The facts are that no matter how bad AB played we won 8 games and there is no disputing the ineptness of the D. Improve the D and we make the playoffs, as is. Start a rookie or someone that turns out to be worse than AB, and we wont make the playoffs without a very strong D - which will take much improvement.

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Scotty, I KNOW it\'s unfair, to Daunte to even be put in that category. AB is not even on his level, and from what he has shown never will be. What I have a problem with is when people discredit other very good players just cause they aren\'t in Black and Gold. That\'s just jealousy. I am willing to bet the majority of the people on this board would take Daunte over AB and NEVER look back.

Also stats were used, cause Joe is fond of putting out there the numbers AB has put up as our qb. Since he didn\'t think Daunte was better, I was showing him how Daunte\'s number dominated AB\'s. I also mentioned Daunte\'s character and playoff wins.

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Well, I am glad to see that you finally admit it...j/k. I am tired of this argument, and this will be my last post on this thread. You keep going back to fixing the defense, and it is possible that if our defense got better that maybe we could\'ve made it to the playoffs. It is also entirely possible that if we fix the offense, that maybe the defense would be better. How many points did we score in the first quarter this year? (rhetorical comment, requires no answer) How many three- and-outs did we have in the first quarter. (Again, rhetorical) By the time the offense decided to get into the game, many times it was much too late. Again, there is always an excuse, but excuses are starting to wear pretty thin on me, and it seems that over the course of the last five years we have tried to fix everything but the QB position. Wasn\'t our first round pick last year a defensive player, and didn\'t we get rid of yet another QB prospect to bring in even more defensive help?(ditto) My final comment in this thread is that AB has done nothing to merit us continuously trotting him out there, and continuously year after year coming up short. He does have raw talent, and shows flashes of brilliance, but in crunch time he just always seems to come up short. His egotistical nature makes him a most unlikeable character, not only to the fans, but I would assume to his fellow teammates So I personally cannot see one good reason to keep this guy, and would welcome a change at that position. Being a Saint fan, I have become accustom to failure, so I am not afraid of it. At the same time, it is hard for me to accept that we are failing and not trying to do anything to prevent it. Now, you go ahead and post your final comment, and you can have the last word, because I really don\'t care that much that I would waste so much time arguing. I tried to end this debate a long time ago, but you were not content with me saying let\'s just agree to disagree...you wanted to keep it going. I will no longer accomodate you. Now, go ahead an have your last word and let\'s be done with it.

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Anybody that looks at the Saints and determines the main problem is something other than defense, in my opinion, ain\'t lookin\'. ;)

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Saints LB

Sure Eli will except all of the blame its what rookie QB\'s do because on most teams the rookie QB is the problem for the time being, he can\'t blame anybody else, Payton also was humble, he had no choice Payton threw like 110 freaking int\'s his first year as a starter, main reason I don\'t want no rookie QB .

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Now, LB, you know you coulda stopped anytime time. Agreeing to disagree gets us no where. If we all did that on every issue, we\'d just sit here and stare at blank screens all day.

I, for one, think we did a pretty good job of trying to get our arguments across and even though it was lengthy and tedious at times, I enjoyed it.

So, no. As far as our discussion, I\'ll let your words be the last. Let it be my gesture to you that during a debate I\'m going to be 100% into it and after hope we can be buds or friends or whatever moniker your geezer generation has for this. ;) Ever had a friend you could brawl with and the 15 minutes later while you\'re bruised and bleeding, you can laugh about it. That\'s how I like to finish things.

We are, after all, kindred in our bewildering love for this team! :cool:

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LongTime, Favre, Vick, McNabb, Peyton all accept blame when they mess up. They aren\'t rookies. Aikman, Marino and Elway did also. Hall of Famers. It\'s not just up to a rookie to accept blame, it is up to ANY QB who wants to gain the respect of the team, at least when they make a mistake. But to never admit blame and deflect it to teammates, well I guess you are saying that is the right of a veteran, whether he has done anything in the NFL or not. I disagree.

And the Giants were 4-12 last year WITHOUT Eli, hardly his fault they stick, whether he accepts blame or not.