LKelley67

i\'m disappointed. ya gotta spit out more than some numbers dewd, puny. we aint discussing a fantasy league.

GumboBC

What would you like to discuss. And that\'s all I\'m doinig is discussing.

Would you believe me if I said that our defense was worse than the Panthers? Or would you rather me show SOMETHING to try and prove it?

Would you beleive me if I said Mushin had a better year than Horn? Or would you rather me show SOMETHING to try and prove it.

What have you brought to the table other than trying to convince me that Saints had a superior team over the Panthers?

Seriously?

Jake had a much better defense. Whether you look at the defensive standings or you watched them on tv.

Mushin looked better than Horn this year too. As every stat will bear out. Mushin made some catches that Horn has NEVER made. And they made the ESPN highlight reel too.

What says you?

Danno

Wow, if Nick Goings had started all 16 games he projects to 1573 yards.
Thats better than every year of McAllisters carrer except one. And it only falls 68 yards short of that one.
Hmmm.
Could Goings be better than McAllister?
Should we trade Horn and Deuce for Goings and Muhammed?
Wow, stats are fun.

saintswhodi

Also, I hate to do this to you Gumbo, but check your facts AGAIN. Colbert was not a first round receiver for Delhomme, he was second round, Makes Jake\'s leadership look even better huh?

GumboBC

Well, Danno, I don\'t know about that.

But here\'s what I do know...

When Goings was inserted in the lineup, here\'s what he did..

vs. Arizona: 121yds
vs. Tampa: 106yds
vs. Saints: 122yds
vs. Rams: 108yds
vs. Tampa:127yds

Goings started in 8 games and rushed for over 100yds in 5 of them.


Deuce on the other hand started 13 games and had 5 one hundred yard games.

papz

Haha... you just made my day. :P

I\'m so happy you all agree safety is NOT our biggest need on defense also. Although we could use one, but we have more pressing needs on defense. *cough* shadowdrinker *cough* Trading up is out of the question. It\'s a deep draft
and we don\'t need to lose a second or 3rd rounder.

[Edited on 4/2/2005 by papz]

xan

OK Gumbo,

let\'s look at 3rd down conversions. I think that even you cannot legitimately argue that this isn\'t one of the most significant indicators of QB/OC effectiveness. It plays to field position and time of possession, both of which tremendously impact defensive performance.

Saints 33%
Panthers 40%

The Panthers converted 13 more 3rd downs, which essentially equates to 33 more minutes of posession over the entire season (assuming 50 seconds per play). That\'s 2 minutes per game. 3rd down conversions are more often than not passing downs, when the pressure is on. It also can translate into field position of up to 15 yards. And the Panthers had essentially one threat option, Muhammed. But it wasn\'t Muhammed who accounted for the 1st downs, it was check-offs in the progression to other options (you can actually do some homework here and look at the stats yourself as I\'ve not mastered the nuance of reprinting them in this format.)

Again, it\'s not a Jake vs. LEON comparison here. It\'s a system comparison. The OC and the QB have to have both a good system and the ability to execute.

The primal law of leadership is demonstrating good judgemnt. A leader, regardless of the system, will go the extra mile to learn to make the right decisions. A leader bends wills to fit his version of victory. No one is perfect as many threads have pointed out both Farve and LEON\'s often horrific lapses.

Show me how the McCarthy/LEON system has bent wills and I\'ll shut up. I\'ll caveat that by limiting that challenge to only positive will bending, not demoralized exasperation of teammates, fans and legislative powers. Be sure to include the last four years of Saints playoff games in your analysis.

If the Saints were a \"Six Sigma\" company, MCCARTHY/LEON would have been shown the door two years ago. Venturi 3 years ago. There\'s a penchant for this organization to have \"sacred cows,\" like LEON and several of the OL, and the secondary. But it seems like they have no problem getting rid of perrenial pro bowl performers if they don\'t toe the line.

What kind of line is that? Maybe Haslett doesn\'t recognize or want the kind of leadership that will get the Saints to the next level. It may mean sharing power. Loss of control can make one do some pretty stupid things. LIke accept mediocrity if it supports your point of view.

Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger."
Hobbes: "Common lament."

GumboBC

I\'m still not sold that leadership is the problem.

I think \"confidence\" is much more important than \"leadership\".

I believe when the chips are down and the stuff starts hitting the fan, the team must have confidence in Brooks.

I\'m not so sure they are worried about his leadership abilities. I think they\'re more worried whether or not he\'s giving 100%. And whether or not his 100% is good enough.

And I think that\'s true for all QBs.

You think the Eagles team is worried about McNabbs leadership when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter?

I don\'t think they are worried about his leadership. And I don\'t think they need his leadership to win the game.

I think they need to have confidence in McNabb and he can only prove that on the field.

Any QB, and I don\'t care who it is, if they haven\'t shown the ability to make plays, then their teammates have no confidence in them.

The same things go for the other positions. QBs don\'t need a leader at wide receiver. They need a WR who has proven he can catch the ball and make plays. What\'s good for the goose is good for the gander.

And WRs don\'t need a leader at the QB position. They need to have \"confidence\" that their QB can make a play. And that can only be done on the field through their play.

Success brings confidence. Confidence brings winning. And winning........well...........then the QB is considered a great leader.

Losing and leaders don\'t go hand-in-hand.

Not in my book.



[Edited on 5/2/2005 by GumboBC]

RDOX

FIRST OF ALL!!

Gumbo, since you have trumpeted this drivel, it is apparent to me that you know absolutely NOTHING about leadership. The definition of leadership is the ability of the leader to INSPIRE the individuals being led to have confidence in the plan and the execution of the plan to achieve the mission. This requires two different behaviors. First, the leader will be willing and able to do what he requires the other members of the team to do. Second the leader requires adherence to the plan and the execution of the plan.

Now, I am sure that you, Gumbo, have never been in a leadership role and that you have never been in the military. Your posts about leadership are glaring examples of your ignorance on this subject.

What Leon lacks in leadership is the ability to inspire confidence in the plan for the rest of the members of the team, because of his inconsistent execution of the plan. This
causes the rest of the team to regard Leon as a prima donna. His statements about his \"greatness\" and all of the other crap that he has pulled while being on the Saints team are indications of his weakness as a leader. This CANNOT be seen in statistics. There are a number of us that have consistently said that Leon has the physical tools to be a top 5 QB. He doesn\'t have either the heart (read passion) or the intelligence to get there.

To make a comparison, Sullivan is a highly talented DT. He is poorly motivated, selfish, lazy, and has lost the respect of coachs and teammates alike. Change the name and position from Sullivan to Leon and you have the same situation.

You have constantly trumpeted your suspicions about leadership and quite frankly you haven\'t any idea of what you are talking about. That\'s because you like to argue rather than reason. You like statistics because they are compact and easy to read. But statistics no matter how good, do not win ball games, take a hill under enemy control, or make a corporation make money. Statistics are indications of performance only. Statistics tell you in numerical terms what has happened. IBM, SHELL,EXXON, MET LIFE, and others look at only one statistic, profit. In the end, the NFL looks at one statistic, the W at the Superbowl.

Leon\'s lack of heart, smarts, and total selfishness will NEVER get us to the Superbowl. WHY? Because he\'s a poor leader, and until he changes that and if he stays with the Saints, then the Saints will hover around 8-8.

saintswhodi

From one grunt to another, nice post RDOX.