USA Today's Saints team report
 

Inside Slant
Saints coach Jim Haslett has been an extremely busy man lately.
In addition to spending several days in Mobile, Ala., scouting talent at the Senior Bowl, Haslett filled two openings on his coaching staff and began a search for an offensive coordinator after Mike McCarthy departed after five seasons with the team.

McCarthy, who was hired by Haslett when he became the Saints' coach in 2000, left to join the San Francisco 49ers and first-year coach Mike Nolan on Jan. 27.

The Saints offered the position to former Miami Dolphins quarterbacks coach Marc Trestman, but he accepted a job as the offensive coordinator at North Carolina State just one day after McCarthy's hiring was announced by the 49ers.

Haslett then received permission from the Denver Broncos to speak with running backs coach Bobby Turner about the vacancy. Turner interviewed with the team on Feb. 1.

The 55-year-old Turner is the most tenured coach on Mike Shanahan's staff. He has been with the Broncos for the past 10 seasons and was part of Super Bowl victories in 1997 and '98.

Saints quarterbacks coach Mike Sheppard is also a candidate for the position.

There was considerable speculation about McCarthy's impending departure in the weeks before it became official as media and fans wondered if he had fallen out of favor with Haslett.

But McCarthy, who also interviewed with the Detroit Lions and Jacksonville Jaguars, said it was simply time for a change of scenery.

"It was just my time to go," said McCarthy, who turned down Haslett's offer of a two-year contract extension last winter. "I had my time here — five good years. This decision was based on personal growth, both professionally and financially."

During McCarthy's five-year tenure, the Saints enjoyed the most prolific stretch of offense in club history. They set 10 team records and 25 individual records, and the offense featured a 1,000-yard rusher and at least one Pro Bowl representative each of the five seasons.

NOTES, QUOTES

—The Saints added two NFL coaching veterans to their staff on Jan. 28 with the hiring of Willy Robinson to the newly created position of senior assistant/defense and Johnny Roland as running backs coach.

The hiring of Robinson, who was the defensive coordinator for the San Francisco 49ers last season, raised some eyebrows. But General Manager Mickey Loomis said Rick Venturi, whose defense ranked last in the NFL in yards allowed in 2004, will remain the coordinator of the unit.

Robinson is expected to work with the defensive backs and help compile the weekly game plan. Before coaching in San Francisco, the 48-year-old Robinson coached defensive backs with the Pittsburgh Steelers.

"We were looking for a coach who could bring a fresh perspective and a wealth of experience," Haslett said. "Willy gives us another set of eyes, and he has been involved with defensive game-planning in the NFL for almost a decade. His contributions to our staff will be as an adviser for every position group, particularly the secondary, and as a top assistant to Rick."

Roland, who spent last season with the Green Bay Packers, has coached Walter Payton, Emmitt Smith, Jerome Bettis, Wilbert Montgomery and Neal Anderson in 26 seasons as an NFL assistant. Both of his Packers starters last season — running back Ahman Green and fullback William Henderson — were chosen to the Pro Bowl.

—Negotiators for the state and the Saints wrapped up their first round of closed-door talks on Jan. 26 without resolving any of the issues standing in the way of keeping the team in Louisiana through 2025.

Dome spokesman Bill Curl said the two sides met privately for two days for a total of seven hours but no major issues were resolved.

"No firm timetable has been set for the conclusion of negotiations," Curl said. "Both sides have expressed the desire to reach a prompt conclusion. Numerous substantive issues were addressed."

He did not say what those points were and also refused to say when more talks are scheduled. He said Saints owner Tom Benson and Gov. Kathleen Blanco did not attend the first two days of talks.

—Ben Dogra, the agent for two-time Pro Bowl running back Deuce McAllister, said he plans to call Saints GM Mickey Loomis after the Super Bowl to begin preliminary contract extension talks.

McAllister has one year remaining on the contract he signed as a first-round draft pick in 2001, but he has said that he would like to get a new contract done during the off-season.

QUOTE TO NOTE: "We're not adding a defensive coordinator, Rick (Venturi) is our defensive coordinator. This is an opportunity to add a veteran coach who has a lot of experience, a guy that has a lot of knowledge and has been in the league for a good amount of time and had success." — Saints GM Mickey Loomis on the addition of former 49ers defensive coordinator Willy Robinson to the coaching staff.

STRATEGY AND PERSONNEL

After finishing last in the league in total yards allowed and giving up more than 400 points, the Saints will likely make some big changes on defense this offseason.

While the defensive line was considered the strength of the unit, the linebackers and secondary came under much scrutiny this season. But a young group of linebackers — including third-year pro James Allen and rookies Courtney Watson and Colby Bockwoldt — played much better toward the end of the season.

That left the back end of the secondary as a source of concern, considering free safety Tebucky Jones and strong safety Jay Bellamy have not been big playmakers the last two years with only five interceptions between them in 32 games.

Bellamy turns 33 in July and is also an unrestricted free agent, which means the Saints might make a strong effort toward upgrading the safety spots in the coming months.

UNIT-BY-UNIT ANALYSIS

QUARTERBACK: Starter — Aaron Brooks. Backup — Todd Bouman.

RUNNING BACKS: Starters — RB Deuce McAllister, FB Mike Karney. Backups — RB Aaron Stecker, RB Fred McAfee.

TIGHT END: Starter — Ernie Conwell. Backups — Boo Williams, Lamont Hall, Zach Hilton.

WIDE RECEIVERS: Starters — Joe Horn, Donte Stallworth. Backups — Jerome Pathon, Talman Gardner, Michael Lewis, Devery Henderson.

OFFENSIVE LINE: Starters — LT Wayne Gandy, LG Kendyl Jacox, C LeCharles Bentley, RG Montrae Holland, RT Victor Riley. Backups — T/G Spencer Folau, G Jamar Nesbit, T Jon Stinchcomb.

DEFENSIVE LINE: Starters — LE Charles Grant, LT Brian Young, RT Howard Green, RE Darren Howard. Backups — DE Will Smith, DT Willie Whitehead, DE Tony Bryant, DT Johnathan Sullivan, DT Rodney Leisle, DL Kenny Smith (injured reserve).

LINEBACKERS: Starters — SLB James Allen, MLB Courtney Watson, WLB Colby Bockwoldt. Backups — MLB Orlando Ruff, SLB Sedrick Hodge, WLB Derrick Rodgers (injured reserve), MLB Cie Grant (injured reserve), WLB Darrin Smith, MLB Roger Knight, WLB Terrence Melton.

DEFENSIVE BACKS: Starters — LCB Mike McKenzie, RCB Fakhir Brown, SS Jay Bellamy, FS Tebucky Jones. Backups — CB Fred Thomas (nickel), CB Jason Craft (dime), CB Ashley Ambrose (injured reserve), SS Mel Mitchell, FS Steve Gleason, CB Monty Montgomery.

SPECIAL TEAMS: K John Carney, P Mitch Berger, H Todd Bouman, LS Kevin Houser, PR-KR Michael Lewis.

USA Today's Saints team report
 

:casstet:

USA Today's Saints team report
 

nice to read here rather than scanning around the net, tks.

---an uncoordinated coordinator at that

USA Today's Saints team report
 

Haslett\'s off-season analysis of the Saints is starting to come in to foucs a little more.

Let me all tell ya\'ll something:

For all of you that might think Venturi is the D-coordinator in \"name\" only and someone else is going to be calling the defense. DON\'T BE FOOLED!!

Haslett usually shoots it pretty straight every year and usually what ever he says is what he does.

Haslett tells us every year what he thinks the problems are on defense and what he\'s going to do. And he holds true to his word.

He told us the Ray Lewis\' of the worlds don\'t grow on trees and he felt comfortable in starting Orlando Ruff. And what did Haslett do? He started Orlando Ruff and left the MLB positon unaddressed!!

He told us he was fine with Ashley Ambrose and Fred Thomas as the starting CBs. And true to his word, they played the entire 2003 season and they got killed.

He told us the last couple of years that Venturi was one of the best defensive minds in the game. What happened? Venturi was still the coordinator and we finished 32nd in defense.

And if Haslett tells you Venturi is going to be the man calling the shots this year...you had better believe him.

So, addressing the saftey position is where Haslett is headed.

Sure, we need an upgrade at safty. But he might want to think about the LINEBACKER positon. Courtney Watson may go on to do great. But, I\'m FAR from being sold on this kid.

And I\'m FAR from being sold on James Allen.

And I\'m FAR from being sold on our DT Brian Young.

There\'s bigger needs on defense than safety, IMO.

And I think Haslett is making a mistake here.

But he always does when it comes to the defense.

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Write this down, for the first time in my history here I agree with you 100% Gumbo. Now, to follow that up, do you still think we should have kept Haslett?

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Man, you\'re putting me on the spot here. I try and be fair with all the coaches and players...........BUT..........

If Haslett doesn\'t address the linbacker position...then he needs to go.

And keeping Venturi is reason enough to go, IMO.

But, I\'ll see what happens in FA.

Maybe he\'s going to address the linebacker position in free-agency.

To be honest, at this very point in time, I think we will having a losing season next year. Or 8-8 again...

Benson, Loomis, and Haslett continue to baffle me.

But there\'s a lot that can happen between now and training camp.

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Man, you have your tap dancing shoes on today. :dance:

But, if that if as close to making a firm decision as you are gonna get, I will take it. Honestly, I wanted him gone a year ago. But not firing Venturi has to be the dumbest move ever. The Packers D-coordinator got fired last year for ONE PLAY(4th and 26) and made Atlanta\'s defense better as soon as he got there. Not getting rid of Venturi or at least demoting him has to be grounds for immediate dismissal. I have no faith they will pursue the best LBs in free agency, or even ones anyone would normally consider good.

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ok-so let\'s trad eup and get a good player-say trade into the top ten and try to get johnson or smith..and then suffer a loosing season where we develop guys and then have another top pick..and then have a great season.

I\'m tired of 8-8 barely making the playoffs but not getting good draft picks.

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You are preaching to the choir my friend.

If I had to list our LB\'s in order of how sold I am, I\'d put Watson 1st and Allen 2nd.
Is Ruff better than either? NO
Is Bockwoldt? A 7th round rookie? Yea, right.
Is Hodge? Hardly
Knight? Rodgers? There are pitiful.
I\'m sold on one LB. Courtney Watson. Allen and Colby are keepers, at worst for back-ups. The rest are replaceable with street free-agents as far as I\'\'m concerned.

He\'s the only DT I think is worth his weight. Leisle? Green? Sullivan? Bryant? Smith? Whitehead?
C\'mon. Of all the wasted space we have at DT, you state Young as the guy you\'re not sold on?
Correct...
I wanna see 4 new LB\'s, 2 Free-agents and Two Rookies.
I wanna see a decent Free-agent 2-gap DT to team with Bryant.
Then I wanna see a ball hawking Free-safety
Then I wanna see a slobber-knocking strong safety.
Then some young CB to develop.

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saintwhodi --

Let me tell you a little story... ;)

For 2 years in a row, I believed our defense was going to be very good.

Year before last we signed Sully and had Grady Jackson as the other DT. Then we already had Charles Grant and Darren Howard.

That sounded like one hell of a defensive line to me.

I knew we needed a line-backer and Haslett beleived in Orlando Ruff. Okay, Haz, good enough for me. I was sold.

But Grady just quit on the team, or something. Howard got hurt. Orlando Ruff couldn\'t get it done. And Ashley Ambrose got burned far too often.

To top that off, Tebucky couldn\'t taclkle a blocking dummy.

But I think half of our starting defense missed over half the year.

So, I gave Ventui and Haz the benefit of the doubt..

Well, then came the 2004 season. Haz drafted Courtney Watson and Will Smith (which was surprising to me) and Haz left the CB position unaddressed.

I thought Fred Thomas would be okay. But I wasn\'t real happy with the way Haz addressed the defense.

But, still, I was optimistic..

Haz made a bunch of promises about the defense.

What happened?

We finished last in total defense..

Fool me once..........shame on you.

Fool me twice.........shame on me.

There won\'t be a third time.... :exclam:

We got McKenzie which was huge.

We still haven\'t addressed the DT position properly, which I think is the most important postion on the entire defense.

We haven\'t addressed the MLB spot properly.

We need saftey help....... I think.

Lot of problems and I\'m not hearing a lot that\'s going to be done about them.

We\'ll see..........

[Edited on 4/2/2005 by GumboBC]

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first off you need to change the climate==which is why most of us who want brooks gone want it to happen...send a message to the players that mediocrity will not be rewarded as it has been for so long.

yes, a problem is benson..but don\'t say that mueller was the second coming either.

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Danno --

I think Brian Young is servicable.

But, you know how I feel about defense. While a lot of fans are enamored by the \"glamor\" spots on defense, like.......the cornerback position, I think the DT are where it starts.

I think the defensive tackles are the most important players on defense. Period!!

I think you start by having dominant defensive tackles. Brian Young isn\'t my idea of the way to build a defense and I think he\'s always going be a liability there. No matter how bad our other DTs may be.....Young is still the starter.

I\'m hopeful Sully will come around because at least he has the skills to be dominant.

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whodi-gumbo love... that\'s a first for me to see here LOL

i have to say as well i count that as the best gumbo post i have seen.

LBs- whew, think about it. watson is a smart good to grow guy but nowhere near a cornerstone. after that the chart falls off to virtual fill-in\'s on most teams. that is why i would.be happy if they paid high end market price to get someone like hartwell. then make do with the current cast of characters in the third slot with maybe another draft pick thrown in.

go ahead, get a safety but don\'t overpay. there\'s no one on the market that deserves it. the group there are veterans at least (vs. lb\'s). make or break it for mel mitchell.

i wanna hear more whodi-gumbo defense ponderings.

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LMAO... :P

You know... I\'ve found the best relationships I\'ve got here at B&G come from some of the folks I\'ve gotten into it the most with.

I\'ve also noticed that when I say something completey negative about any of the coaches and players that there\'s a lot of folks who say.....

......... Geez, that was the best post Gumbo has ever made.

Of course it seems that way to some of you because you agree with it.

It\'s not that I disagree with some of you about the coaches, Brooks, etc, ect.

It\'s that I disagee with some of your \"reasoning.\"

Like.. Qbs are defined by win/loss records.

Or McCarthy\'s playcalling was the problem

Or, Haslett\'s players quit on him.

Or, leadership is the big problem

McCarthy might have needed to go, but I don\'t know about this play calling stuff. And I\'ve stated why.

So, I might agree with some of the overall statements, but man I sure do question some of y\'alls reasoning... ;)

And, of course, some of you guys need to hear the otherside on most of this stuff..... No need to thank me. Just frustrating you is thanks enough for me...LMAO!!

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It\'s that I disagee with some of your \"reasoning.\"

Like.. Qbs are defined by win/loss records.
--well, if your offense doesn\'t score in the first quarter even when you get to the red zone--because of the quarterbacks desicion making..and then the quarterback shows his AZZ to reporters and refuses accountability.

Or McCarthy\'s playcalling was the problem

not saying it wasn\'t...but was that the biggest problem or was it that he didn\'t have a offense to carry out his game plan.

Or, Haslett\'s players quit on him.
well winning the last four games shows us this didn\'t happen.

Or, leadership is the big problem
--EVERYBODY, and I mean everybody that has been asked about New ORleans has stated that this is their biggest problem. FOotball is the one game in which you must have leaders in order for your team to win..and those leaders are usually the QB, C and MLB...

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Me Too! This was one of the best threads that I have read since coming to this board.

Gumbo,

I disagree with you on Brian Young. I like his motor and his fire. He and Grant have stood up and kicked some tail. The problem is the same as when Glover and Hand were here. Sully should have been the stud that Hand wasn\'t. Sully, damn him, decided it was more fun to pig out at the media table than to play football. I blame Venturi, Hazlett, LoomBoom and Baby Mule for that debacle.

I also think that BaronM is right. Get rid of Leon, not because he doesn\'t have talent, but because he honestly doesn\'t inspire heart in his teammates. Grant has stepped up with the leadership role with the D. That\'s why I\'d trade Howard, who by all rights should be the leader of Hazlett\'s Defense, since he was the guy that Hazlett picked first.

Assuming that a decent safety comes available in FA as well as a decent LB or two, we should raise the bar with regard to defense. However, with Leon running things on offense, and not scoring in the first quarter, the Defense is gonna get tired from being on the field for long stretches. Had Leon and the Offense done a halfway decent job of staying on the field longer, I\'d be willing to bet that the Defense wouldn\'t have finished last. No, they were not great, but they might have been respectable, but we\'ll never know now, will we?

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I can\'t begin to tell you how many times I\'ve read here on B&G that the players quit on Haslett. I tried to tell \'em that they didn\'t quit. I suppose maybe that 4 game win streak put a halt to that talk.....

That\'s what some of you guys say. Delhomme\'s leadership got the Panthers to the super bowl in 2003. That\'s what a bunch of folks told me.

But, Delhommes leadership only got him 7-wins without that dominant defense and running game. Well, actullay they still had a damn good running game.

I suppose Mike Vick\'s leadership got them to the NFC championship game.

I suppose Culppepper\'s leadership got them in the playoffs and beyond.

I suppose McNabb has got to be one of the best leaders we\'ve ever seen. Afterall, he\'s gotten to 4 NFC championship games and a superbowl.

Every winning team has a great leader and hardly any of the losing teams do. Very confusing to me....

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gumbo, on that leadership thing i think there is a strong consensus not just on this board but otherwise that there is not a lack of talent on the saints offense but the intangibles that make them the league\'s most renowned underachieving team. before free agency took root some teams just won a plethora of talent that overwhelmed others. with parity now the difference between teams is less n less, a finer line. yes, you must have a certain level of talent but it takes those intangibles to go to the next level. this applies to the whole team but all the more to the qb and other leadership roles. i think this translates to quality of play, regardless of wins/losses beyond stats whether great or average. brady is compared to montana cuz of more than any stats. marino will probably shoo-in to the HOF with incredible lifetime statistics. as good as those are it was his overall leadership and quality of play that gets him in. beyond stats is what makes youngsters like big ben and leftwich look like the real deal. poise, presence, leadership, performance when it counts most, etc. this is the critique of ab. yes, he has moments but the moments seem to be getting less. and if not regression there is certainly no progress in those intangibles.

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I have to say that I\'m actually a little impressed by the quality of the two coaches they have hired. I hope their winning attitude will rub off on the whole team.

Still worried about who they\'re going to hire for OC, though...

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LKelley67--

I know there are many who believe leadership makes a big difference in football. But.......I\'m not convinced.

Many folks thinks there\'s life on another planet somewhere, but I ain\'t convinced about that either...

Here\'s my arguement about the leadership thing as it relates to football.

If leadership is critical in the NFL. Then what does that make Donavan McNabb? He\'s been to 4 NFC championship games and one super bowl.

What\'s McNabb doing in the leadership department? All I see him doing is moon-walking in the endzone and joking around.

Jake Delhomme is considered to be a great leader by many on this board. And his leadership was listed as a BIG reason the Panthers got to the super bowl. But, unless Delhomme lost his leadership, it only got him 7 wins this year. Same leadership + less talented team = 7 wins.

That\'s only a couple of examples. I could have listed Mike Vick, Culpepper, or a bunch of others.

What I believe is players believe in what they see with their eyes. They believe their QB can make a play, or they don\'t.

Tom Brady hasn\'t showed me anything other than he can make some clutch plays. Does that mean he\'s a great leader? Not hardly. It shows me he\'s a good QB, but great leader?

Yeah, if you define leadership as the ability to make a play.

If I were a player, it wouldn\'t make too much difference about if my QB was a great leader. What would make a difference is if my QB could get me the ball and if he could make some plays.

If my QB couldn\'t get it done...........then.........I ain\'t much worried about anything else..

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so in essence you are one of those people that my granddad refered to by saying \"well, he just changed changed the minds of most of the fickle, espn loving fans and bought himself another year\" when he saw brooks make a last ditch drive to score after blundering through the rest of the game like ned in the first reader.

look man-yes you have to have talent..but talent means nothing if you can\'t do anything with it. Micheal jordan would\'ve been harold minor without the work ethic and leadership abilities he brought to the table.

I\'d rather have an average qb with good work ethic, deciveness and leadership skills than a great athlete who is a me first, lazy player that continually makes bad decisions.


either you ARE aaron brooks in real life, or have a definite hang up that precludes you from seeing the reality of the situation that seemingly everyone else sees..this is getting old. our qb is not getting it done..so i\'m not worried about any other position right now.

[Edited on 4/2/2005 by baronm]

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Touche\' baron. I was gonna quote that line too. :salute:

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Look guys... I\'m ready to be sold on this leadership thing.

Think of me as that big dummy with a handfull of cash and nowhere to spend it..... ;)

Come on.........sell me some of that leadership!! ;)

But, be fair about it.......

Tell me how great of a leader McNabb is.

McNabb must be one of the best leaders in the NFL? At least, according to y\'alls theory.

But I don\'t think McNabb is that great of a leader.

Apply y\'alls theory to some other QBs who are winners.. McNabb, Vick, Culpepper..

Then explain to me how Delhomme only won 7 games after reaching the super bowl the year before. Where was that leadership then and how much did it help?

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After losing key player week after week, Delhomme LED his team to one of the hottest finishes in the league. Again, I would like to see how AB would perform with all the injuroes Delhomme had. He also led his team to the superbowl and almost led his team to a victory if nto for a kicker\'s inability to keep the ball in bounds.

McNabb is a pure example of leading by example. He ALWAYS says the right thing, and even when his receivers were absolute crap, he didn;t complain. HE just LED them to NFC champ after NFC Champ after NFC Champ.

Vick\'s leadership is clear, the TEAM rallies around him, defense included. They ALL play so much better when he is on the field. It\'s no doubt who the leader of that team is.

Culpepper is another example leader. He has a volatile but talented personality on the field with him, yet he doesn\'t try to sominate him or take over the spotlight. Randy says throw me the ball 80% of the time, Daunte shows him there are other receivers on the team. and I HAVE seen him on the sideline when they were down trying to get the team fired up. Randy walks off the field, \"Daunte says how disappointed he is.\" That\'s a leader. Just cause Randy is the best receover in the league he ain\'t gonna give him a free pass, but he ain\'t gonna toss him under the bus either.

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I can and will tear this apart.... ;)

Even with all the injuries to the Panthers. They still had a better defense and a better running game than the Saints. And while Delhomme might have LED his team to one of the hottest finishes in the NFL... It was Aaron Brooks who LED his team to the hottest finish in the NFL which inclueded a Brooks LED win over the hot Jake Delhomme LED Panthers that knocked the Panthers out of the playoffs.

Agreed. McNabb leads by his play on the filed. And he doesn\'t blame his teammates. Then again, he\'s been to 4 straight championship games. Not much reason to blame anyone when you\'re winning...

You\'re talking about the same Vick that said he was great. The same Vick who called out his offensive line and his coach?
The same \"me first\" Vick I\'ve been watching?

This is the same Culpepper who just got to the playoffs this year. The one who clowns on the field all the time? I don\'t see much in the leadership department. But, that\'s just me...

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it does get old but we can\'t hepp it i spose...

delhomme showed even more \"leadership\" this year than last to me. an offensive line decimated in the off season, both top rb\'s go out for the year, your top wide receiver gone, a 1-7 record with a 6 game losing streak... then to come back and even challenge for a playoff spot... impressive TEAMwork and the qb always does get a too much blame or credit, but regardless, he is usually the catalyst and does have more weight of success or failure based on his game. in this case, beyond any numbers you could identify \"leadership\". not just jake but the sum total of those intangibles that make teamwork success.

it isn\'t all leadership with whatever talent you might have that makes success. the contigent here doesnt think that. talent cannot be denied. moss is gifted, just like ricky williams. but you get not only non-leadership in those intangibles but you get negative or distracting issues to deal with. couple talent with leadership and you have a hall of famer like brett favre. that is why there is no question about peyton manning regardless of how far he has gone in the playoffs thusfar. he has both and get there one day, just like mcnabb has got there or how it took elway a while. beyond the wins and losses, beyond the stats, i do not see progress in ab regardless of what the supporting cast is doing. i see the same inconsistency or retrogression.

i have pointed out before there have been some wacky or inconsistent qbs in the superbowl before. but since the advent of free agency/salary caps in the mid 90s (i count the dallas and sf demises as the end of pre-salary cap) only good value leader sorts or the true franchise qbs have been there- no high ended salaried disappointments. my beef here isnt that we are coping with a talented inconsistent qb. it is that we are paying premium qb salary to do that. i think that is why others have chimed in that we could do this good with a kitna or rattay. they are not as talented. but they do seem to have some leadership qualities with serviceable skills that you could get for 10-15% of what you are paying ab. use that 5+mil to beef up some weakeness like lb or a db.

enough for now. have a good weekend ya\'ll

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Wait, you mean the AB who has Horn and Deuce and Grant and others while Delhomem didn\'t have Smith or Foster or Davis or Jenkins? Yeah, I see how that is fair.

I seriously doubt they had a better running game than what Deuce was putting up at the end of the year. Again high ankle sprain, played hurt. Imagine if we didn\'t even have Stecker? Or if Deuce was hurt the whole year? That\'s Delhomme.

On McNabb, yup not much reason to complain when you carry your teams to wins. I guess when you don\'t, you can complain away.

Show me some articles of Vick calling himself great. Please. I think you have him confused with his cousin. I really really would like to see an article. Also where he disses his team. By the way, he is considered one of the greatest athletes ever to play the game, has led his team to a few playoff victories as well. But I can see why AB egst to say it and not him. Again, show me an article.

Culpepper has been in the NFC Champ game in 2000. You may wanna recheck your info. Yes, he is a leader.

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saintwhodi --

Nick Goings put up over 100 yards in every game he played in except for ONE. And that was against the Saints.

Here\'s the bottom line. Jake had a 100-runningback for as many games as Brooks had, if not more. Delhomme had a better defense than Brooks. Even with the injuries. If you want to deny that........that\'s fine.........it\'s just not true. Julius Peppers, Dan Morgan, Mark Fields, etc. ect. And they ranked ahead of the Saints in total defense.

And Jake has a probowl receiver who outperfomed Joe Horn. And the Panthers had a first round draft choice at the other receiver spot.

And don\'t forget, the Panthers have one of the top coaches in the NFL in John Fox. And we got Haslett.

You tell me who had the advantage. Brooks? Or Delhomme?

Leadership my foot. I don\'t see where it helped a thing.

Yet, in spite of all that Jake couldn\'t win as many games as the Saints and the Saints knocked them out of the playoffs.

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Gumbo -
I\'m surprised that one would look at the 2004 Panthers and say that Delhomme failed as a leader. After getting absolutely decimated by season ending injuries for nearly 8 weeks, with NO talent left in receiver or RB, a weak O-line and a compromised D, they reeled off 5 straight wins. Good coaching - hell yes. Where was Delhomme in this? Playing exceptional football with 5 games of a rating over 100 and averaged 103.5 for the second half the year. He was one bad pass from being playoff bound.

Did anyone even hint that the Panthers gave up on either the coach or the qb? NO.

Did Delhomme throw himself on grenades intended for teammates. YES. At the same time the P\'s were 1-7, the Saints were 3-5. Which QB/OC would you say got the most out what he was dealt with when the season was on the line?

I\'m not boo-hooing the loss of Delhomme, I\'m lamenting over the maddening lack of character that you accept so slaveringly.

I agree with several posters ( whodi, baron, lkelley, etc) that leadership in key positions is critical. There must be a leader in each layer of the line-up. The qb must lead the entire O, but there needs to be a go-to guy on the O-line and one in the skill positions. There has to be a leader of the D-line, the leader of the LBs and one for the secondary.

I\'ve not seen but two guys embracing the leadership positions, Horn and Grant, out of the 6 needed. McKensie may well be a third next year and that does bode well for the D. I\'m not sure that having minimal O-leadership is going to work out, AGAIN.

Finally, it is too soon to tell whether any of this is going to matter until we see who is going to coordinate the O. That guy\'s going to have a fairly dramatic impact on the personnel on the field. I don\'t blame Trestman for taking a college OC position rather than the Saints\' considering the personnel he\'d be forced to deal with - Leon, a sieve for an O-Line, and prima donna, easily injured skill players. If I were a top flight OC, I\'d demand control of at least one high draft pick and guarranteed one high profile FA; who the hell wants to blow his career on THIS bunch?

ps. I got fed up with the frigid NE and flew in to NO this morning for a little Gras, and passed by the Saints\' facility on Airline. WOW. If that doesn\'t inspire the kind of commitment that the State and the Organization have for giving the players every opportunity to succeed, then we\'re paying them too much. Especially Sullivan.

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xan-

Here\'s the way I see it.

Rushing attack:
Saints: 26th
Panthers: 27th

Total Defense:
Saints: 32nd
Panthers: 17th

Receivers:
Joe Horn: 94 catches/ 1399 yards/11TDs
Mushin Muhammed: 93catches/1405 yards/16TDs

Now, you tell me who had the advantage?

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i\'m disappointed. ya gotta spit out more than some numbers dewd, puny. we aint discussing a fantasy league.

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What would you like to discuss. And that\'s all I\'m doinig is discussing.

Would you believe me if I said that our defense was worse than the Panthers? Or would you rather me show SOMETHING to try and prove it?

Would you beleive me if I said Mushin had a better year than Horn? Or would you rather me show SOMETHING to try and prove it.

What have you brought to the table other than trying to convince me that Saints had a superior team over the Panthers?

Seriously?

Jake had a much better defense. Whether you look at the defensive standings or you watched them on tv.

Mushin looked better than Horn this year too. As every stat will bear out. Mushin made some catches that Horn has NEVER made. And they made the ESPN highlight reel too.

What says you?

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Wow, if Nick Goings had started all 16 games he projects to 1573 yards.
Thats better than every year of McAllisters carrer except one. And it only falls 68 yards short of that one.
Hmmm.
Could Goings be better than McAllister?
Should we trade Horn and Deuce for Goings and Muhammed?
Wow, stats are fun.

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Also, I hate to do this to you Gumbo, but check your facts AGAIN. Colbert was not a first round receiver for Delhomme, he was second round, Makes Jake\'s leadership look even better huh?

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Well, Danno, I don\'t know about that.

But here\'s what I do know...

When Goings was inserted in the lineup, here\'s what he did..

vs. Arizona: 121yds
vs. Tampa: 106yds
vs. Saints: 122yds
vs. Rams: 108yds
vs. Tampa:127yds

Goings started in 8 games and rushed for over 100yds in 5 of them.


Deuce on the other hand started 13 games and had 5 one hundred yard games.

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Haha... you just made my day. :P

I\'m so happy you all agree safety is NOT our biggest need on defense also. Although we could use one, but we have more pressing needs on defense. *cough* shadowdrinker *cough* Trading up is out of the question. It\'s a deep draft
and we don\'t need to lose a second or 3rd rounder.

[Edited on 4/2/2005 by papz]

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OK Gumbo,

let\'s look at 3rd down conversions. I think that even you cannot legitimately argue that this isn\'t one of the most significant indicators of QB/OC effectiveness. It plays to field position and time of possession, both of which tremendously impact defensive performance.

Saints 33%
Panthers 40%

The Panthers converted 13 more 3rd downs, which essentially equates to 33 more minutes of posession over the entire season (assuming 50 seconds per play). That\'s 2 minutes per game. 3rd down conversions are more often than not passing downs, when the pressure is on. It also can translate into field position of up to 15 yards. And the Panthers had essentially one threat option, Muhammed. But it wasn\'t Muhammed who accounted for the 1st downs, it was check-offs in the progression to other options (you can actually do some homework here and look at the stats yourself as I\'ve not mastered the nuance of reprinting them in this format.)

Again, it\'s not a Jake vs. LEON comparison here. It\'s a system comparison. The OC and the QB have to have both a good system and the ability to execute.

The primal law of leadership is demonstrating good judgemnt. A leader, regardless of the system, will go the extra mile to learn to make the right decisions. A leader bends wills to fit his version of victory. No one is perfect as many threads have pointed out both Farve and LEON\'s often horrific lapses.

Show me how the McCarthy/LEON system has bent wills and I\'ll shut up. I\'ll caveat that by limiting that challenge to only positive will bending, not demoralized exasperation of teammates, fans and legislative powers. Be sure to include the last four years of Saints playoff games in your analysis.

If the Saints were a \"Six Sigma\" company, MCCARTHY/LEON would have been shown the door two years ago. Venturi 3 years ago. There\'s a penchant for this organization to have \"sacred cows,\" like LEON and several of the OL, and the secondary. But it seems like they have no problem getting rid of perrenial pro bowl performers if they don\'t toe the line.

What kind of line is that? Maybe Haslett doesn\'t recognize or want the kind of leadership that will get the Saints to the next level. It may mean sharing power. Loss of control can make one do some pretty stupid things. LIke accept mediocrity if it supports your point of view.

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I\'m still not sold that leadership is the problem.

I think \"confidence\" is much more important than \"leadership\".

I believe when the chips are down and the stuff starts hitting the fan, the team must have confidence in Brooks.

I\'m not so sure they are worried about his leadership abilities. I think they\'re more worried whether or not he\'s giving 100%. And whether or not his 100% is good enough.

And I think that\'s true for all QBs.

You think the Eagles team is worried about McNabbs leadership when the game is on the line in the 4th quarter?

I don\'t think they are worried about his leadership. And I don\'t think they need his leadership to win the game.

I think they need to have confidence in McNabb and he can only prove that on the field.

Any QB, and I don\'t care who it is, if they haven\'t shown the ability to make plays, then their teammates have no confidence in them.

The same things go for the other positions. QBs don\'t need a leader at wide receiver. They need a WR who has proven he can catch the ball and make plays. What\'s good for the goose is good for the gander.

And WRs don\'t need a leader at the QB position. They need to have \"confidence\" that their QB can make a play. And that can only be done on the field through their play.

Success brings confidence. Confidence brings winning. And winning........well...........then the QB is considered a great leader.

Losing and leaders don\'t go hand-in-hand.

Not in my book.



[Edited on 5/2/2005 by GumboBC]

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FIRST OF ALL!!

Gumbo, since you have trumpeted this drivel, it is apparent to me that you know absolutely NOTHING about leadership. The definition of leadership is the ability of the leader to INSPIRE the individuals being led to have confidence in the plan and the execution of the plan to achieve the mission. This requires two different behaviors. First, the leader will be willing and able to do what he requires the other members of the team to do. Second the leader requires adherence to the plan and the execution of the plan.

Now, I am sure that you, Gumbo, have never been in a leadership role and that you have never been in the military. Your posts about leadership are glaring examples of your ignorance on this subject.

What Leon lacks in leadership is the ability to inspire confidence in the plan for the rest of the members of the team, because of his inconsistent execution of the plan. This
causes the rest of the team to regard Leon as a prima donna. His statements about his \"greatness\" and all of the other crap that he has pulled while being on the Saints team are indications of his weakness as a leader. This CANNOT be seen in statistics. There are a number of us that have consistently said that Leon has the physical tools to be a top 5 QB. He doesn\'t have either the heart (read passion) or the intelligence to get there.

To make a comparison, Sullivan is a highly talented DT. He is poorly motivated, selfish, lazy, and has lost the respect of coachs and teammates alike. Change the name and position from Sullivan to Leon and you have the same situation.

You have constantly trumpeted your suspicions about leadership and quite frankly you haven\'t any idea of what you are talking about. That\'s because you like to argue rather than reason. You like statistics because they are compact and easy to read. But statistics no matter how good, do not win ball games, take a hill under enemy control, or make a corporation make money. Statistics are indications of performance only. Statistics tell you in numerical terms what has happened. IBM, SHELL,EXXON, MET LIFE, and others look at only one statistic, profit. In the end, the NFL looks at one statistic, the W at the Superbowl.

Leon\'s lack of heart, smarts, and total selfishness will NEVER get us to the Superbowl. WHY? Because he\'s a poor leader, and until he changes that and if he stays with the Saints, then the Saints will hover around 8-8.

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From one grunt to another, nice post RDOX.