Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Offending line play

Throughout the league, the offensive line play is at an all-time low

I have never seen worse offensive line play in the NFL than I'm seeing this year. I have never seen so many bad offensive lines.

They're getting swarmed, overrun, inundated. Blitzing is coming back into fashion, not only by typical blitz-happy defensive coaches, such as the Eagles' Jim Johnson, but by anyone who smells weakness along the opponents' offensive front. And there are plenty of them.

Miami's offensive line, perhaps the worst in the business, got roughed up by Tennessee in the opener, and things only got worse the following week against Cincinnati. The Bengals, whose defense got hammered by both the Jets and Ravens, looked like positive monsters against those Dolphin linemen. And so did the Steelers last weekend.

Carolina's line couldn't handle the Green Bay blitz, and the Packers aren't known as a wildly blitzing team. Washington's defensive coach, Gregg Williams, always was considered a sound fundamentalist, but not a guy who pulled out all the stops on his rush. During the three-year period in which he was Buffalo's head coach the Bills' cumulative sack total was below the league average. But this year when he faced the Bucs in the opener, he took a look at that Tampa Bay offensive line, which had been restructured and revamped for the umpteenth time, and sent people in from all angles.

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Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Does he ever menition our line? I am sure if he did you would have highlighted it for us. So if line play is at an all time low in the league, and pretty much EVERYONE has the same problems as AB, I wonder how other teams overcome? BAckwards passes to linemen, or under-handed to LBs? I wonder why there weren\'t more of THOSE highlights for other teams with bad line play. I didn\'t even see AJ feeley do that and they called Miami\'s line the worse.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Yea, and Aj almost led them to the playoffs :xxrotflmao:

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Good article Billy. Nice find.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Well Venturi, I was told if AB had a top flight D, he could take us to the playoffs. Miami is true that that ain\'t so. We have bad o-line and bad D. They have terrible o-line and great D. We both have one thing in common though, poor quarterbacking.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

i wouldn\'t say leon is a bad quarterback... he\'s an inconsistent-as-all-get-out quarterback... if you look at stats, he\'s in the top 10 best qb\'s right now... if you look at win/loss, he\'s not as good... consistency is his problem. for the last couple of years we\'ve all been hearing, \"well, once he finds his consistency\" which leads me to believe he isn\'t exactly looking hard enough... i think that if leon hasn\'t \"found\" his consistent play yet, he never will and it is time we look elsewhere for a qb who will.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

as for the line, the tackle position is where we have major problems... i can\'t say i find to much fault in bentley, jacox, or holland... well, holland is still a little green to pass judgement on yet... but gandy... stick a fork in his ass... riley... if we even in as much as consider to bring his sorry ass back, i\'ll rip off my own arm in anguish... we seriously need to consider bringing in one (if not two) tackles to contend for starting spots and provide depth if they lose out that battle...

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

8-8 with the worst D in the league...why are we even discussing QB? :popcorn:

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

I respond to a lot of the anti-Brooks posts on this board. I really don\'t take a lot of it too seriously. I just kinda have fun with it.....

But, it still amazes me how some folks try and pin everything on Brooks..

SOME of you, and you know who you are, blame damn near EVERYTHING on Brooks.

For example:

1. Poor offensive line = Brooks holding the ball too long.
2. Dropped Passes = Brooks can\'t throw touch passes.
3. Poor Defense = Brooks can\'t score and it hurts the defense.
4. Teams Record = Lack of leadership from Brooks.
5. Poor Running Game = Because defenses don\'t respect Brooks\' passing ability

And there are many more that haven\'t listed!!

For those of you who try and pin EVERYTHING on Brooks....Do you think anyone in their right mind is believing this stuff?

When you guys post stuff like that, there are only 2 alternatives that I can see in responding to that crap.

1. Ignore it.
2. Make posts that are the extreme opposite.

There is no reasoning with the Brooks bashers. So, you might as well have a little fun with them.

Now, back to what this thread is about.

I think speed is more of a factor for offensive tackles than ever in the history of the NFL.

Since most DE are of the smaller and quicker variety, you don\'t need Big maulers at OT. Instead you need someone who can get to the point of attack to stop the speedy defensive ends.

Of course, there is a trade off. They aren\'t as dominating in the running game and they can be at a disatvantage if they have to face a bigger DE.



[Edited on 6/2/2005 by GumboBC]

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

i wasn\'t bashing him at all.... just pointing out his inconsistency... you\'re right you can\'t pin everything on him, but you can pin a lot on him... his stats don\'t lie, he\'s got that... but his win/loss doesn\'t lie either... good qb\'s find ways to get it done... if brady can complete a pass from the seat of his pants, i fully expect brooks to put on the numbers if he\'s standing up (which he rarely does, as we all know his balls are usually right at the ground or way too high, but rarely on the numbers)

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Whodi,

Hunh?

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Billy,

I\'ve got to disagree with you on Brooks bashers. I\'ve had several discussions recently that I thought ended with some good give and take. Patience is a virtue, after all.

I agree that it is probably best, in most threads, to just ignore Brooks comments altogether, as they often have little to do with the rest of the thread.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Kool, I was told give AB a top flight defense and he would have us in the playoffs. Miami has a top flight defense and them along with several other top flight defenses were at home for the playoffs. Buffalo, Baltimore. Seems like they were doomed by poor QBing, and none of them have a pro bowl receiver. MY point on Miami was no matter how good your D is, is you have a poor QB, you ain\'t doing squat.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Whodi,

I see what you\'re getting at now.

I\'m not sure what to think about that argument. Does it follow from that that if your QB is bad what your defense is like doesn\'t matter at all?

Is Jake the snake a good QB then? Without Denver\'s top five defense, I don\'t think that Jake and the O would have made the playoffs, do you?

I\'m willing to say that Denver\'s running game and defense are the reason that they made the playoffs. Is that unreasonable?

Heck their WRs are at least as good as ours, but I\'m still not willing to say that Jake is a \"good\" QB. He\'s middling at best, which appears to me to be what we have.

[Edited on 6/2/2005 by JKool]

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

If what you are saying Kool is Jake would not do any better here, I would agree with that. He is just as inconsistent as AB, although he puts up similar #s. I don\'t think at all their receivers are as good as ours though.

And yes pretty much I think it doesn\'t matter what your D looks like if your QB is gonna lead the league in red zone turnovers or fumbles or dumb plays or not even complete 60% of his passes in 5 years.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

But if Jake would do the same here, then doesn\'t defense and a running game matter to your success? Jake and Denver are the counterexample to your Miami claim, aren\'t they? Maybe I missed something?

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Apparently not. Did you see the way Denver got blown out of the playoffs the last two years? I don\'t think they counter anything. I think they prove the point as well.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Denver: mid-to-crumby QB, good D, good Running game = playoffs.

That is a counter example to: mid-to-crumby Qb, good D, good running game = never make playoffs.

If Jake = Aaron, then \"never make playoffs\" with good running game and good D is false.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

I looked at the stats, and Jake is actually better than AB the last two years. My apologies to Jake. Jake does not = Aaron.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Whodi,

Just because his last two years stats are better doesn\'t make him not inconsistent as you said - he\'s just had two banner years.

Jake isn\'t any better than Aaron on any given Sunday. He just has a better team around him - better D, better OL, and a better running game.

You\'re digging in for no reason. I suspect most will agree.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

No, I go wih the guy who has the least talent but puts up similar #s as AB. Jake has had a good running game the past 2 years, well guess what, the two years before this one so has AB. Jake\'s receivers ARE NOT as good as AB\'s especially with the retirement of McCaffrey and Sharpe and guess what, he posts better numbers than AB. He may be inconsistent, but I would count on him more than I would count on AB. He took a for crap Cardinals team to the playoffs, AB can\'t do it WITH talent. So if me seeing the guy as better is digging in cause I disagree with your assessment of him, then dig dig dig. Jake at least is still willing to scramble if his teams needs it as well. This I gotta be a pocket passer at all times crap from AB is getting dumb.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

I guess we disagree on Jake. I don\'t think that\'s a big deal, though.

Let me ask you this: what would could as evidence that with a running game and a defense a \"poor\" QB could succeed?

It seems to me that:
(1) You\'ve set it up so there can be no counter-example. A QB with a running game and a D will have better stats (since I think that the passing game is related to a strong running game and a strong D), generally than one without, so you\'ll just say of whomever anyone puts forward as an example that they aren\'t \"poor\".
AND
(2) No one will have all the same problems and stats as AB, so you\'ll just say that the comparison can\'t be made.

Thus, \"AB + good running game + good D = never win\" can never be contested (in fact, it seems impossible to contest based on how you evaluate QB comparisons), since there is NO ONE who can be substituted for AB.

In science that is called an insulating strategy - nothing can show that your theory is false - and it isn\'t good form.

[Edited on 7/2/2005 by JKool]

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

If nothing can show it as false, then that must be the truth right? I guess I don\'t understand. When all the falsehoods are taking out of an argument, then that leaves the truth, or so I was taught.

The evidence that a poor QB can succeed with a running game and D is the Superbowl by the Ravens, probably the only one of its kind. It\'s an anomaly. It does not happen enough to warrant an \"it could happen\" discussion. That\'s like saying the immaculate reception could happen again and believing it. Sure it could, but some things are once in a lifetime. The thing about dilfer though is he had no receivers worth anything, yet he didn\'t committ the dumb mistakes. HE managed the game, which is all he had to do. HE didn\'t lead the league in team killing statistics. But again, it was an anomaly.

Also, I never said players can\'t be compared to AB, I just haven\'t found too many viable ones that are in similar situations with AB. The ones I do put forward have already been discussed in length. So just because a new QB is introduced it does not make that QBs situation the same. I don\'t think that eliminates disagreement, but the QBs who are in similar situations have outperformed AB in every way(Culpepper, Bulger). That\'s my measure.

Ab + good running game + adequate defense was the scenario last year as I outlined in another thread. So it HAS BEEN PROVEN that even with the good running game and better than average D AB still can not get it done. The reverse HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN. So I guess it is hard to argue against a proven point with a hope or a belief. That\'s like saying \"It is a fact there are other planets in the galaxy\" which is proven and then trying to say \"There are aliens cause there are other planets\" with no proof.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Whodi,

No.

It cannot be proven that it is false that there is a green, mutant alien on some planet in a very distant galaxy - does that make it true? It most certainly doesn\'t. I can give better examples, but I thought that one was fun.

What makes something true is that the world is one way or another (that is, what makes it true that I\'m typing at my computer is that I AM actually typing at my computer - that is kind of a poor way to put it, but truth is a question for a different thread). It is very hard to determine what is true, not very easy.

That can\'t be a proof since it assumes that next year\'s AB is IDENTICAL IN EVERY FOOTBALL RESPECT to last year\'s AB, which is false by your own admission (one year it was fumbles, the next it was turnovers in the red zone, etc.). Thus, no proof.

Furthermore, and I am not alone in this belief, there is some reason to believe that AB has improved over the years. Thus, instead of being identical he should be, even if only marginally, better. I know you don\'t agree, but we\'ve been unable to convince each other otherwise, and I don\'t suspect we will be able to.

Why would you accuse me of making an argument from ignorance? I did no such thing. I stated reasons for all my beliefs on this matter, even if you didn\'t agree with them. It is not like I infered from NOTHING that AB could get it done with a better line and a better defense (e.g. there are aliens in our solar system). Sheesh.

Here is an example of an insulating strategy:
No Linebacker will ever be as good as Rickey Jackson.
Someone says: LT was as good or better.
Reply: But Rickey played on worse teams with worse records.
Counter: One Year the Giants were almost as bad.
Reply: Did you say ALMOST. No proof.

Notice that is silly. Either things that are relevantly similar BUT NOT IDENTICAL can be compared or they cannot. If they cannot, then why bother, since NOTHING could change that person\'s mind. Btw, don\'t contest the facts in this last example, since I just made it up and I didn\'t check the facts - just make up an example you like (it shouldn\'t be too hard), if you don\'t like this one. I\'m sure you see the point.

Finally, fine point on the Ravens. I wish I\'d thought of that example. I will think on it.

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by JKool]

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

As arguments go, somethimes they last too long. I think this one has out-lived it\'s shelf-life as the particulars are being drowned out by the metaphors, funny as they are. So I will say this, while I appreciate the effort you put forth trying to knock some middle of the road into my get rid of AB brain, I have yet to be convinced enough to believe he could be anything but middling. On the flip side, I am sure I have done just as little to convince you we should get rid of him. I can accept that. But we are knocking ourselves out here. So I say this, if the D improves next year, and the line improves, and AB is just as crap as always, will you then, after 5 years straight of no playoffs, be ready for him to go? When he is still making dumb comments? Or how about this? What if he demands a raise this off-season? Do you think we should be rid of him at that point? I will answer one for you. If AB took a pay cut for the next season and decided he would let his performance earn him a new salary, I would shetup about him that very minute. I can accept the mistakes of a lower salaried humble player. Just some food for thought.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Whodi,

I\'m inclined to agree with you that some of this is needlessly agravating and seems to make little progress.

I am willing to let AB go this year, though. I don\'t know if I was \"convinced\" of that, but I do think it now that many of us have discussed it (and not so much before).

I\'m willing to let him go for Brees or someone who is fairly clearly better. But not for any of the other names that have been bandied about as available, since they don\'t seem to me clearly better.

I am not willing to let him go for a rookie, since according to my analysis it is very unlikely a rookie could really help us more than AB at his current level for at least a year.

If Brooks sucks it up again this year, I say ditch him. Certainly the OLine and Defense can\'t get much worse. However, what it means to \"suck it up\", I\'d bet is an open question. I don\'t consider an offense that can win 8 games with the worst D in the league \"sucking\", and since I can\'t really see how to individually rate AB\'s role in the offense (or lack of role) in any real way, I guess I\'d just have to say he\'s part of our O that managed 8 wins despite some serious crap around them. That said, if we don\'t make the playoffs again, I\'m pretty happy to let AB go - if a reasonable (and I really just mean merely reasonable) replacement can be found.

If he holds out, I don\'t know what I think. That is a good question, and I will think on it.

I agree to set this aside for awhile. Perhaps some new stuff will come to light - a good QB suddenly becomes available, AB holds out, there is good cap sense reason to let him slide, etc. - until then I can agree with you to set this aside.

I have enjoyed this palaver very much. Thanks for the food for though.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Doesn\'t matter that I\'ve screamed that from the highest Mountain, \'cause nobody is listening anyway.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

I am. You must be posting it in one of the 8 zillion AB threads. That probably explains why you haven\'t seen me.

Its funy. This topic was about bad O-line play and the VERY FIRST REPLY is about AB, then it snowballs.

This is complete BS!

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Yeah, it is complete BS.

I\'ll be the first one to admit I let myself become entrenched in these AB debates.

But, even I\'m tired of it.....

Brooks is a big part of this team and there\'s nothing wrong with discussing him. And I believe because it\'s the offseason, it gives some of us something to talk about.

However, Brooks doesn\'t need to be a part of every thread that is started.

No one wants to come to a thread about the offensive line and hear all of this Brooks crap.

I\'ve started MANY threads that have nothing to do with Aaron Brooks and there are a few folks who want to talk about nothing but Brooks.

I know the mods are tired of it. And I know the mods want good intelligent discussion on this board instead of the same old tired AB discussions.

I\'m not saying I\'m never going to talk about Brooks. But, I\'m not going to respond to a post about Brooks when the thread had nothing to do with Brooks.

If someone wants to talk about Brooks, keep it in a thread that has something to do with Brooks!!

Here\'s what\'s been blamed on Brooks :

1. Screen Pass: Brooks\' fault.
2. Can\'t block blitz: Brooks can\'t recongnize a blitz.
3. Poor Defense: Brooks can\'t keep the offense on the field long enough.
4. Dropped Passes: Brooks isn\'t accurate.
5. 8-8 record: Mainly due to lack of leadership.

To some folks, EVERYthing is Brooks\' fault.

Folks, we get it. We get some of you think EVERYthing is Brooks\' fault. But, we don\'t need to hear it in every post. Discuss something else that are related the the problems the Saints have.







[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Wait, so the point of all this is, threads are gonna be made that DEFLECT ANY BLAME FROM BROOKS by belittling the players around him and and if you try to assign ANY of that to Brooks, you can\'t stop talking about Brooks and are ruining the discussion? Unreal. How many times in a BROOKS THREAD do people come in and say no it\'s the line and it\'s the dropped passes and penalties and defense? Be for real. You can\'t have it both ways. So if Brooks can\'t be discussed in an OBVIOUS don\'t blame Brooks thread, when someone starts an AB thread, NOONE should come in and Discuss ANYTHING BUT AB. No line, no dropped passes, nothing else. Fair?

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

saintwhodi --

I\'ve been as guitly as you in the past.

But, here\'s the deal....

We\'ve debated Brooks 1,000,000,000 times. Enough of the tired old Brooks\' debate.

We\'ve heard you blame Brooks for screen passes, dropped passes, bad defense, etc, ect...

But we don\'t need to hear it in every thread.

And I don\'t need to defend Brooks in every thread.

People are tired of this. Hell, I\'m tired of it.

Start a thread about Brooks and get it out of your system.

What have you NOT said about Brooks that you would like us to hear?

I\'ll stop defending Brooks if you\'ll stop bringing Brooks in every thread?

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Number one, I didn\'t blame Brooks for screen passes, I agreed with those who did. If you assumed by me saying \"I wonder why we haven\'t been able to run one in 4 years\" I meant all cause of AB, you were mistaken. When I blame Brooks, I do it right out. Straight up. But when someone else did, I agreed with their assessment. I was blaming McCarthy and Haz also.

Number two, I don\'t blame Brooks for drops, I agree with those who say he doesn\'t know what touch is or drops are not as big a problem as bad passes are.

Number 3, I don\'t blame Brooks for a bad D, but I will point out when a QB takes almost a half to get going, more than likely the D will suffer.

The problem is, when ANYONE tries to give Brooks even a little blame for other parts of the team, it turns into a war when it doesn\'t have to be. Noone ever said the line is good, the defense is good, balls are not dropped, but to think AB has NO PART in effecting these other parts of the team is preposterous. He is not 100% responsible for these other parts, but if he plays bad, then the wheels are definitely coming off everything else. So if the notion that Brooks is blamed for everything was erased, we wouldn\'t have these long discussions cause NOONE SAYS THAT. What is said is that if there are probelms in certain areas, it is foolish to ignore Brooks as A PART of these problems. Huge difference in my mind. But whatever. Do whatever you guys like. Discuss AB or don\'t discuss. It means jack come opening day and we are here again with the same arguments.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

i totally agree whodi

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

WTF?

For a bunch of guys who are sick of discussing this, you sure don\'t act like it.

This thread bogged down into an AB thread. The two guys carring on the discussion called it a stale-mate. THEN a bunch of other people show up to criticize the already done thread for carrying on?!

Please. I get just as tired of having the same discussions over and over again. It is just my opinion, but there have been some interesting things said in these thread (usually not, but occasionally). I understand not wanting to read them, or even finding them inane, but criticizing people for something they didn\'t do... wtf?

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Like I said, Kool, I love you man. :heartpump:

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

They\'re are some interesting Brooks\' debates. I like debating Brooks with saintwhodi, WhoDat, JKook, etc., etc.,...

But there\'s a time and place for it, IMO. Like in a thread that\'s talking about Aaron Brooks.

Sure, Brooks affects all aspects of the offense. And all aspects of the offense affects Brooks.

All I\'m say is wouldn\'t it be better to not bring Brooks into every thread. At least by the same folks.

I can point to myself and admit that I defend Brooks way too much and don\'t talk about his negatives enough.

The Brooks debate is at a stand-still and no progress is going to be made. At least not by introducing Brooks in every thread.

Now, we\'ve made some head-way on the Brooks debate but it takes numerous posts about Brooks and I really don\'t think most members of B&G want to hear us debate Brooks in threads that aren\'t intended to be about Brooks.

When I start a thread about a 3-point stand, it isn\'t meant to be about Brooks.

When I start a thread about the defense, it isn\'t meant to be about Brooks.

Folks start a lot of threads that aren\'t intended to talk about Brooks but it always turns into a Brooks debate.

And I can tell you that the mods of this board don\'t want that. Now, I\'m not speaking for any mod for this board. I\'m just going on what I\'ve been told.

This board could be much better.. :mad:

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Billy,

I\'m on board.

I just thought it was strange that this came up here, where Whodi and I had already signed off on the dispute. It was dead.

My general view, and I could be wrong, is that Brooks stuff should not get to hi-jack a thread. Here is my suggestion for what it worth. By the third Brooks post in a thread, it should be suggested that that part of the discussion be bracketed and moved to a new thread. This way the discussion that is not about Brooks involvement can continue un-incumbered AND anyone who believes that the Brooks element is critical (which I never do) can discuss it in the NEW thread.

What do you think about that?

It seems to me that the Brooks point is overly polarizing. I don\'t understand why yet, but I agree that it is.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

I LOVE the idea. Folks come here to talk football. Not debate Aaron Brooks in every thread. I like the idea of moving the posts that are hi-jacking all these threads.

I think I\'ll make a request. :D

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

Sounds good to me... if I get a vote on such matters.

PS - Apologies for being part of the machinery that has been ticking people off. I never intended to frustrate anyone.

Bad Offensive Line Play by Dr. Z
 

JKool --

There is no apology need. I\'m not upset with anyone in particular. Heck, I\'m as guilty as anyone for carring on the Brooks\' debate.

I\'d just like to see some of this stuff cleaned up a little bit... ;)