Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

I would be shocked to find out that any unit of last year's Saints was the worst AT EVERYTHING. Thus, while the defense was ranked LAST in yards allowed, it was not last in points allowed. Clearly our Offensive Line was not the WORST in the league, but it was still pretty darned bad.

This fact has generated a lot of poor arguments.

In order to see if we can get some agreement on anything, I propose we try and figure out where our effort should be placed in the offseason.

Let us say that we have 20 points of effort. Each point represents coaching, money to spend on FAs, scouting, scheming, drafting, etc. Where would you assign these and how much would you assign. Here is my quick list (which I reserve the right to modify after discussion ensues, since I basically just pulled it out of my azz):

MLB - 3 (We need one, and how.)
OT - 3 (Replacing Riley is the only way to get things done.)
OLB - 2 (We need a backup AT LEAST)
DT - 2 (This may not be necessary with new LBs, but it would obvioulsy improve us.)
S - 2 (We need a quality backup AT LEAST)
OT - 2 (Replacing Gandy would free cap space and an improvement here is welcome.)
RB - 2 (I like Stecker, but he doesn't inspire a lot of confidence as an every down back.)
CB - 1 (After MM, we drop off VERY fast.)
QB - 1 (At least a backup who is better than Bouman, please.)
OG - 1 (Our interior wasn't that solid, an upgrade would be nice.)
WR - 1 (After Horn, we're nothing but a lot of potential.)
TE - 1 (They were shakey at times, but with a bit more attention, I don't think they suck.)

I'm willing to drop the points spend on WR and TE and alot them to LB (either O or M) and OT, but I haven't decided yet, so I left it as is.

Thoughts?

[Edited on 6/2/2005 by JKool]

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

OLB-3-Ed HaRTWELL
OT-3-Riley Sucks
DT-2-wouldn\'t hurt to add someone
OG-2- we are not as solid as we think here
Cb-2-After MM we have nickel backs
S-2-Ball Hawk please
OT-2-Gandy aint gettin any younger
TE-2-They cant catch and aren\'t great at blocking either
MLB-1- I think Courtney is fine...need a backup
Qb-1-Bouman sucks

No points on RB..Deuce is a top 1o back and Stecker is a good backup
No points on Wr..Joe is a top 5 Wr...Donte will be great if his hands become consistent...Devery is a speedster...Jerome(if here) will be a good backup

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

hartwell is a MLB, no? anyways we need him and kendrell bell... i\'ll personally start collecting to try to pay them if benson won\'t... riley and gandy could go **** a duck as far as i\'m concerned... as a matter of fact, didn\'t they do that last year, b/c they sure as hell weren\'t playing good football out there... mckenzie is already one of my favorites, but he needs help and thomas isn\'t help (unless it\'s at nickel back)... b. young is really good, provided there\'s a beast to occupy double teams that allow him to shoot gaps in the line... i think his name says it all, \"te-sucky\".... bellamy is aging and i think ss should be a priority this offseason... boo williams thinks that we\'re calling his name, but really we are booing him (he sucks, bad).... need a tight end or allow hilton to get some reps, b/c hey who knows he might be a stud

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

i honestly feel the only areas on the team that we are set at is rb and de... say what you want, stecker is a GOOD backup so we don\'t need to look for another one... i\'m all about trading d. howard to get some area of need filled... and carney, please do us all a favor and retire (or cut your foot off so you can\'t kick anymore)

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

JKool-

I know I\'m not sticking to your analysis, but I just want to say a couple of things.

I think the most pressing need is at OT and MLB. I really don\'t know which is more important. We need both.

After that, I think we need another DT and then a safety.

One other thing....

When I look at our record of the past few years, I don\'t think we had the same problems from year to year.

Take this year for example. I think Deuce being hurt and us finishing 26th in rushing really hurt. Our passing game is really predicated on the ability to run the ball on first and second down. Deuce\'s injury and the offensive line didn\'t allow that. And that was a whole new problem

Of course, we still had a sucky defense.

And when you couple our defense with a poor running game and a terrible offensive line, I think we were lucky to win 8-games.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

I\'ll play.

OT - 7
MLB - 5
WR - 2
DT - 2
QB - 4 -- A trade is the only way we\'re going to either address or afford the other needs.

Here\'s how I think Haslett with prioritize the offseason.

DT - 5 via the draft
WR - 5 via the draft
RB - 7 via the draft (Deuce, sit over there with Ricky Williams)
RT - 3 via free agency

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

BMG,

Thanks for playing (you too FV).

Are the 7 points at OT for two OTs or just one?

I\'m beginning to agree with you that cap space is going to be an issue. I\'m still not convinced that Brooks is the one who should go though; Gandy\'s contract is in the 4 mil range, and given his performance versus Brooks (who I believe is going to be near the 6 mil range), I think Gandy should go first.

Also if LKelly is right, if we dump Brooks, we\'ll take a cap hit for his remaining bonus (prorated over his remaining contract) this year, so I\'m not sure how much room we\'ll free up if we let Brooks go.

Guys, I\'m somewhat convinced by emotional appeal that our RB situation isn\'t that bad. I\'m willing to move it down to a 1. I still think if Stecker had to carry the load, we\'d be in trouble. I will in turn move my extra point to OT then.

BMG, why a 2 at WR? Stallworth isn\'t that bad is he?

Hartwell is a MLB. I agree that we should make him a priority. There are many LBs available, who aren\'t even super stars, who would improve our unit greatly (ha ha, I said unit).

Billy, part of the reason for dividing up points was to get people to really think about priorities and level of importance. Play the game dang it! :bugeyes:

The rest of you, I eagerly await your views - :popcorn:

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Okay, I\'ll give it a shot..

OT -5
MLB-4
OLB-3
CB-2
OT-2
DT-2
S-1
TE-1

I\'m going to have to go OT as the most critical.

We have Devery Henderson, so I see no need in bring in someone else.

I feel pretty good with Fakir playing behind our pass rush if we can stop the run. And we\'re solid with McKenzie.

I still feel we need a DT. If we face a power running attack like the Steelers or Panthers, I think Brian Young will struggle.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Kool, I ranked the 7 as both T positions. I\'m convinced we\'re going to need new guys on each end. I know this won\'t make a lot of friends here, but I suppose we could keep Riley cheaply and not have to replace both sides.

I figure that Riley has probably already cleaned out his locker and the front office will try and make Gandy work for another year and pay his HUGE cap number.

I listed WR as a 2 because I\'m not convinced that we keep Horn. I\'ve gotten the impression for a couple of years now that Haslett would like to drop him, but he\'s been too valuable and (in the case of this year) he was cheap. I think any sort of \"show me the money\" coming from Joe will mean he\'s gone.

I also figure that Pathon is gone with his big cap number. I\'ll revise my rankings if we manage to re-sign Joe, but Stallworth all by himself doesn\'t instill a great deal of confidence in me.

I\'m nervous about the RB situation honestly. I almost expect Haslett to give up on Deuce and draft a RB in April.

I\'ll be very surprised if we sign a quality LB in free agency.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Thanks Gumbo.

BMG, thanks for the quick reply. I see your Horn argument. I would increase my WR number if Horn were to go as well. You think that Stallworth is a fine #2 then? I\'m inclined to agree, but I bet that would be unpopular. I sometimes wonder if Stallworth doesn\'t suffer as a result of being the #2 (poo jokes aside) WR? If he had more deep routes, I think he\'d do better; also, he\'d see more passes, which may help his consistency.

As for Riley, I imagine your view is pretty unpopular. Why not let Folau play instead of Riley? He\'s just a cheap, and he did start the year before - and I don\'t remember him being as bad as Riley was this year?

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

There are plenty of good RT out there. Its not nearly as hard to find as a left tackle. That\'s why I ranked CB ahead of RT. Though I\'m okay with Fakir, he might not cut it and CB are much harder to find that a RT.

Riley needs to go. I can\'t handle another year of him. Start anyone but Riley............PLEASE!!

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

I think Stallworth would be better served running more deep routes. I think part of his problem is that he hears footsteps when he\'s in the middle of the field.

I\'m not opposed to Folau starting. My question is: who would we have left on the bench when the Stinchcomb experiment is over?

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

BMG,

I understand Nesbit can play all the positions? Does that inspire confidence?

I also understand your view on Stallworth, but I\'m not sure I agree (of course I could only see like 6 games this year). I thought he looked a lot tougher over the middle later in the year. He also made a couple of tough catches while covered. I don\'t really know what more to say about that.

[Edited on 6/2/2005 by JKool]

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

I have a question for both JKool and BMG...

Don\'t you guys feel that solid RT can be found pretty easy and on the cheap?

I think so. I\'m not sure who is availiable, but I\'d think RT are much more plentiful than LT.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Safety - 5 - top notch player
Cb - 5 - top notch player
LB - 4 - good player
OT - 4 - good player
QB - 2 - decent back up

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

OT 6: Both Riley and Gandy must go. (Gandy would be a credible RT, but at lesser pay).

OLB 5: I\'d like to stick with Watson in the middle for now and get better on the edges. This may mean coaching up Allen or Hodge and picking up soomeone new.

DT 3: Obviously we need someone clogging up the middle.

QB 3: AB has talent and athlietic ability. All 3 points should go into coaching and scheming. 2 major areas of focus: running when necessary and dumping the ball off when in trouble.

S 1.5: Tebucky looks ok. He could stand plenty of improvement in coverage. I really think we need to replace Bellamy with Mitchell or someone new.

WR 1.5: As with AB, I\'d like to see coaching at work here. A focus on understanding the playbook and focusing on assignments is a key here (lumpin catching the ball here).

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

How can you stand it?

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

sd, just so I can be clear, you think we only need one OT and one LB, and that those are both less important than getting a Safety and a Corner? That is a merely clarificatory question, so please don\'t take it the wrong way.

Billy, I do think that we could get another RT relatively cheaply. My view remains that we need to replace both OTs with better players than we have. However, I\'d be more in favor of dumping Riley and going with Folau if we don\'t get a better player. I\'d like to see us get Diem.

Scotty, I agree with you on our Safety situation.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Scotty,

It was pretty rough, but judging by everyone else\'s response to the games, I think my blood pressure thanks me.

I usually follow the games on the NFL.com site; I used to listen to the web-cast too, but now that the poopy NFL has prevented that, I\'m sad.

I get to see as many GB games as I want though... :weepy:

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

This is a really interesting thread.

When I look at what needs fixing on this team, I have to look at it like this.........

What are our weakest positions?
I believe that\'s where you have to start.

What positions on a football team make the most impact?
Even though we might be weaker at safety, we might be better served getting a CB, who I believe can make a bigger improvement even though we\'re weaker at safety.

How hard is it to find a solid player at a certain position.
If there are a bunch of right tackles avaliable and we can easily find someone, then I rank that position lower because of that fact. However, I don\'t know if this is true, just a hunch that there are a lot of RT out there.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Bill Parcells himself says CBs are less important due to the rule changes and I am inclined to agree. It is more important to be able to enforce the play of your D on another team\'s offense to cause mistakes than to count on your CB shutting someone down. That being said, a dominant DT, a serious LT, and a good, solid MLB should be addressed right off. Of secondary concern, S, QB, then CB.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

i think that outside of resigning the guys we need to resign that we need an o tackle and a d tackle. i would also like to see us bring in a qb or draft one to challenge brooks. even if not this year in the years to come

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

spk,

I can get on board with that, but how high a draft pick would you use? Would it depend on what we did in FA?

That is the reason for the ranking; it really makes you stop and think what kind of resources you\'d be willing to devote to such things. When I did mine, it made is slightly clearer to me where QB fell on the list of needs.

Whodi, good point. Rule changes to make CBs value drop a bit. I tend to be in the minority on my view of CBs value (I tend to be higher than most), but I do agree that CBs are decreasing in value these days. Do you have a ranking?

I\'ve recently heard it argued that we don\'t really need a stud DT, we merely need a run-stuffing wide body, what do you think?

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

i think the problem with awide body is that you have to worry about the weight all the time. i\'d prefer to just get someone that can get the job done. as far as the o tackle and d tackle i think how high we draft depends in part on what we do in free agency and what talent is available. i dont want to pick up a guy that is really a 2nd or thrid round pick in the first round because we need that position. regardless of need as far as the draft go\'s if someone falls even if it isnt a need i think you have to draft him. just like last year. you can never hgave enough good players. but if there was an o tackle worht our first round pick i would take him. we need a guy like that. im scared to take another d tackle. man i would just hope that sullivan would get it going this year. i doubt it but i guess theres always a chance. im not that concerned anymore with our cb spot. i think we are decent there if we keep mike. i like our lb,s right now especially bockwoldt but i would never mind seeing us bring in a veteran that can really play. as far as qb if we can get a good one in rounds two or three i say go for it. i hope i answered it a little bit better jkool

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

I would be estatic with a run stuffing DT. I don\'t need a Rod Coleman sack making DT. Give me a guy strong against the run, and at least disruptive on enough pass plays to make a difference. He doesn\'t have to have Glover type sack numbers.

What do you mean by a ranking on CBs? Not sure I follow. As presented in this thread or overall value in the NFL? I would be glad to expound on either.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

but also jkool as far as the wide body run stuffer go\'s, i would say that is in part true. but they have to be just that a complete run stuffer. i think that can be huge. i still go back to the fact that if your d line plays really well. your linebackers and cb\'s and safetys will be better. i mean even ray lewis didnt have his normal year this year. from what i have heard thats because the line wasnt as dominant as in the past.

hey i still think that no matter what that two most important parts of any team are your lines

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Whodi, I meant in the NFL (and by value, I meant importance to having a good defense).

spk, I think we pretty well agree. Thanks for the thoughts.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

In terms of an NFL defense, I think line is first and foremost the most important on defense. Everything starts up front. I would have had corners before LBs in past years, but not anymore with the rulses changes. I even feel safeties are more important than CBs now cause safeties see the whole field and are now either the ones making the plays, or being that extra run stuffer ala Roy Williams. I watched how the premiere corner in the league Champ Bailey got torched by Chad Johnson on MNF and that dimished my value of CBs some. He also had no safety help, and I realized how bad it would have been had he not been Champ Bailey.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Whodi, I\'m starting to agree with you on this.

Before these rule changes here was my ordering of importance per position.

DE
DT
CB
DT
OLB
MLB
DE
CB
SS
FS
OLB

I feel that my first CB would now slip behind the first OLB in terms of importance. Does this seem reasonable?

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

saintswqhodi i am 100% with you on the d line. i mean thats where games are won and loss on both sides of the ball. i dont care who your rb is qb is wr\'s are if you cant block you cant win. as far as d line if you cant get push up front everything becomes harder on the rest of the positions.
now dont get me wrong im not saying you dont need talent at all other positions offensive and defensive but it takes a lot of pressure off if you can dominate up front

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spk, I definitely agree.

Kool, and that seems more than reasonable. Although I value a good MLB over OLB, unless I am mis-reading what you have you may have the same.

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I did have some trouble deciding on that one. I think that the pass rush advantages and the advantages in pass coverage of a (usually) more agile and speedy OLB outweigh the more situational advantages of a good MLB.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Not much pass rush from an OLB unless thay are in a 3-4, which we are not. And we saw how much difference a good MBL can make in what Trotter has done for the Eagles. I lend more importance to that position.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

[quote:d05e7047fd]sd, just so I can be clear, you think we only need one OT and one LB, and that those are both less important than getting a Safety and a Corner? That is a merely clarificatory question, so please don\'t take it the wrong way.


We would need only one of each position..if we got good players to fill the spots...

In your 20 point scenario...I would much rather spend 5 points on a weakness..rather than just say..every position is in need..and assign 1 or 2 points to each...

know what I mean?...

Get a Great Safety..and a Great CB...ok..now we have a good backfield...

Get a good LB...we have two young guys...One of which I think will ultimatley start for us long term...we have several other guys who can fill in the weak lb position...

One good OT will anchor the line...Stinchcomb should be able to contribute...and if we had a solid LT...it would greatly improve our durability..and we could use rotation of players..to keep them fresh...

One decent backup QB - get a guy who can sit back one year and try to beat out Brooks next year....

No one scenario could possibly fix the team with one swipe of the hand...but..I think fixing the backfield this year..can be done...we have tried to fix the front 7 for 4 years now...Let\'s get some talent to back them up...

My theory is..get a good back field..and the LB\'s can focus more on the run...and won\'t be fooled by play action as much...

With the Lb\'s now more in tune with the run...we can blitz more..and give our D line some help...and make the opposing team adjust to the pressure..and put more blockers..and have less of those short passes...to RB\'s and TE\'s...

Plus..a physical safety is worth his wieght in gold...punishing recivers...and stepping up in the box..to blitz and stop the run...it\'s awesome to be ablr to do that...and we haven\'t been able to in so long...maybe some of you guys forot how much of an impact a player like that can make?...

did you see Harrison in the Superbowl?...dude was Defensive MVP..no doubt...heck...could\'ve been MVP overall...

having a top shelf safety is a must for a good Defense....I feel like we would be taking that first step to improving our D..with a Safety in the 1st round...

heck..we have bolstered the D line and Lb corps for 3-4 solid years now...and..nothing has helped....yet..we get one decent corner..and our d looks way better....It\'s clear to me where we need help the most....and Haslett is right in thinking so also...He\'ll fianlly do the team right this year...even if he has to drag you all, kicking and screaming towards the 1st round pick

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

WLB-4
DT-3
RT-3
SS-2
FS-2
TE-1
OG-1
QB-1
CB-1
RB-1
WR-1

Just my 2 cents,
I think we\'re gonna get one good free-agent LB. The biggest impact position is the WLB. Atlanta moved Brookings to WLB because thats the playmaker in Mora\'s defense.

I\'d much rather keep Watson where he is. He\'s the perfect size for a MLB, has excellent speed, is extremely intelligent and a hard worker. That position isn\'t nearly as shaky as the SLB/WLB positions.

At SLB we have Allen/Hodge. I think Hodge is over. He never developed past his 1st year. Allen has progressed some, especially late this past season. But I really don\'t think its wise to count on him because of 4 good games to close out the season. He looked POSITIVELY horrid starting the season.

At WLB we have Rodgers/Bockwoldt. Rodgers is aging fast, and Bockwoldt is a liabilty versus the run. He\'s going to need to get MUCH stronger to avoid being exploited by teams with power RB\'s. I\'m impressed with Colby, but he was a 2-3 year project when we drafted him. I think his success simply shows how bad our other LB\'s were. THIS IS THE POSITION OF GREATEST IMPACT VALUE.

I could live with moving Watson here if a stud MLB became available, but I\'d rather get a proven stud WLB if possible.

The 2nd area would be DT. Plugging in a 2-gap fat boy lets Brian Young do what he was brought here to do. He was never brought in here to be the clogger. He is an excellent role-player DT. But without a 2-gap, he\'s as useless as Deuce in the 2-TE set.

Just a WLB and DT would improve this defense tremendously. Then quality depth elsewhere becomes the main goal.

Riley? I don\'t know. His whole career has been good-bad-good-bad-good-bad.
If his pattern holds true, he could be OK next year. If he comes into camp in good shape, great. If he comes in fat again, cut him immediately.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

sd, I hear ya bud. I agree that we need another DB. I\'m just not sure we need two. I\'m actually starting to lean toward a SS.

It just seemed to me that an OT and a LB were certainly more important to the success of a team than a SS. I do like your Harrison example though.

Danno, nice work as always. I guess, you and I agree on the value of an OLB over a MLB. Nicely argued from cases as well.

I note though that you don\'t think we need any real work on our LT. Here are three quick thoughts on that:
(1) Even if Gandy can hold up next year, he is middling at best. He won\'t make it two more seasons - this would reduce our window to next year.
(2) Gandy has a large cap number that we could eliminate.
(3) There are a number of quality LTs available in FA this year, so we could get a new, younger one for slightly less than we will be able to after next season.

I also see we disagree on Tebucky, since you list that as an area of need. I would have said SS first, since Bellamy is aging.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

ok-i\'m going to read the entire thread later-but just want to comment:

I think that LB is our bigest weakness because improved linebacker play takes some stress off the safeties.

so i gotta go LB first.

then offensive line-we need tackles. THe trenches is where it starts and ends.

then we look for depth. I think DL and DB goes next.
I think these will be most easily gotten in Free agency ala Hovan and smoot/rolle

then backup rb, gb and wideout. If we keep brooks we need a backup that will push him and would let us bench him if he gets erratic.

same with duece he needs a backup that will push him.

Now with wide out-I\'m wondering what we could get for horn? He is looking for Price like numbers and is worth it..but I don\'t think he can get it without killing the saints. we have too many other needs.

Howard should be traded as well. we could get some quality depth for him.

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

Since this discussion is about ranking our problems and discussing them, I\'m going to hit this from another angle..

9- Tom Benson not hiring a competent GM.
5- Not competing in free-agency.
3- Haslett not making changes.
2- Venturi\'s scheme.
1- McCarthy\'s game day plan.

Tom Benson: Winning starts at the top and that\'s where I place the most blame. It\'s clear by some of the decisions Benson has made that he doesn\'t understand what it takes to build a winner. A GM is where it all starts at, and until a team has one they will not win the big one.

Free Agency: You\'ve got to keep up with the Jones\'. One big name free-agent can make a big difference. While we\'re signing the Orlando Ruff\'s of the world, other teams are improving their roster by signing guys who are proven.

Haslett not making changes: Venturi is still here. That\'s enough said about that. And Haslett needs to step in and make changes during the game when things aren\'t going well. That is the coaches job isn\'t it?

Venturi\'s scheme We\'ve got enough talent to be much better on defense than we\'ve been over the past 4 years. I don\'t need to say much about how bad Venturi\'s schemes have been. I think we ALL agree with that.

McCarthy\'s game day plan: He sticks to whatever his plan was before the game. Not enough adjustments are made to counter what the other team is doing.


[Edited on 7/2/2005 by GumboBC]

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

I don\'t think the problem stops there.

I honestly think hasslett is a good coach-may an DC, and not a head coach..but I think he does the best with what he has to work with.

I think that mid game adjustments do need alot of work, though.

yes, the problems start with benson-then go to GM. but lets also look at the players.

there is no accountability, no leadership, no inspiration to do less than what is absolutley neccessary.

THat is mybiggest problem with this team and why I think brooks and duece need someone to push them-I think that hte new RB coach will do that with duece..but brooks needs to get over his \"i\'m micheal vicks cousin so therefore i\'m as good as he is\"....syndrome.

the problem is also with the fans-why should benson pay to have a contender when the fans are complacently satisfied with an 8-8 team?

Rank Our Problems and Discussion
 

I wouldn\'t go that far. The boo birds seem to escalate every year. Fans boo Brooks, cheer certain players getting hurt. The call in shows are absolutely lambasting this team and its owners. The local media rips them a new one constantly. I think the fans are sick and tired of 8-8 and have been for a very long time.

The only thing fans haven\'t done is stop buying tickets. But they aren\'t stupid. Stop buying tickets and the Saints will be headed elsewhere. Buying tickets does not equate to being satisfied with 8-8.