An AB Option???
 

So what you suggest is to trade Brooks, who is not an elite QB, for an elite QB? You can\'t even do that on Madden without giving away the farm with him. Ain\'t gonna happen. Hasselbeck IS Brooks without the 55 fumbles the last 4 years and the ego. How is that NOT an improvement?

An AB Option???
 

What I\'m saying is only trade Brooks for a QB that can out perform Brooks, if you can\'t do that then Keep Brooks

An AB Option???
 

I\'m not sure that Hass doesn\'t have an ego. The reason I might favor getting him and replacing Brooks is efficiency. AB has shown what our offense is capable of - even with someone as inconsistent as he passing. Thus, eliminate some mistakes and incompletions by inaccuracy and our O could be more efficient with Hass. However, the lingering question for me is mobility. If we do not properly address the OT position this offseason, Hass\' ability to be more efficient will be diminished.

I think this is all probably going to end up moot because he will likely re-sign with the \'Hawks because of loyalty to Holmgren.

An AB Option???
 

The difference in drops between Hass and AB is 13. As I recall, Seahawks WRs droped 38 balls and Saints WRs droped 25. That isn\'t a big difference, if you ask me. Sure it is a couple of first downs, maybe a TD or two, but in terms of raw numbers, I\'m not impressed.

An AB Option???
 

I saw on ESPN that Seattle LED THE LEAGUE IN DROPPED PASSES...

They were discussing the future of Hasslebeck and Alexander...

They also said that , of the 2, Alexander would be the one to go..If one were released..or traded..whatever...they expect that Seatlle will either..Tag Hasselbeck..or thier left tackle..I believe they said the LT had been tagged twice in a row..and they really didn\'t expect to see him tagged again..and..I agree...Hasslebeck is a very good QB...it\'s hard to determine just how much of an impact those dropped passes really had..a drop on 3rd down is far more costly then one on 1st...


But ..you can bet several of them came on key drives ( They did lead the league)...and might have contributed to his drop in production...

An AB Option???
 

... Brooks has a stronger arm than Hasselbeck..
... Brooks is taller than Hasselbeck....

..that\'s the \"talent\" Brooks has over Hasselbeck...

... guess when you are tall and have a strong arm you eally don\'t need QB skills..

..had to edit to add something about the drops:

The NFL doesn\'t keep an official \"passes dropped\" count.... what constitutes a \"drop\" can be subjective: did it hit the WR in the numbers, did it hit the WR in the hands, but it really was out of reach, ect.... However, according to the stats inc website, which would apply a somewhat even definition of a \"dropped pass\" to all teams, there are teams that had as many drops as Seattle, and one that had even more... KC and Miami are credited with as many drops, and Jacksonville is credited with more than anyone else at 42...

..yet, you didn\'t hear anyone mention how many passes the Jaguars dropped, or Miami, or even KC... it was always how many passes the Seattle Seahawks drop... and there is a reason for it... if you look at Seattle\'s dropped passes, you\'ll see that a lot of those hit the WRs right in the numbers, or in the arms, well within the WRs reach...

... speaking of the credited number of passes dropped, the number my seem low, but it really isn\'t , because of the range of pass play...

... and what more can be said about Seattle, after witnessing how they ended their season...

[Edited on 13/2/2005 by Tobias-Reiper]

An AB Option???
 

Excellent post Tobias. I mentioned elsewhere Seattle\'s season enden on ANOTHER dropped pass by one of their receivers, in the endzone, in the playoffs.

I also like your AB is taller and stronger point. Classic.

An AB Option???
 

So, basically what you are saying is THERE IS NO STAT FOR DROPPED PASSES AND IT IS SUBJECTIVE?

I see.

So, when someone says x or y had lots of dropped passes, there is no way to find out if it is true? In fact it is entirely possible that x had more or y had more...

Hmmmmm.

Interesting.

An AB Option???
 

..before I go on, I again feel the need to make clear that I am not a stats guy, even tough this wouldn\'t be a \"stat\" but more of a count...
now..

..what I SAID is that the NFL DOESN\"T KEEP AN OFFICIAL COUNT OF DROPPED PASSES.... but that is not to say that no one else does... there are plenty of numbers you hear out there which the NFL does not keep as \"official\" stats... Stats Inc keeps count, ESPN apparently keeps its own count... ESPN is saying the Seahawks led the league in dropped passes, while Stats Inc has Jacksonville as the one...

see? That\'s what I said....

... and I said that I didn\'t know the criteria used by those who do keep a count for considering a pass a \"dropped\" pass or merely an \'incompletion\", and that it could be subjective; and I also said thet even tough it may be subjective, when applied EVENLY to all teams, then it is possible to get a fair count from all teams...

..see? that\'s what I said...
I don\'t know if they count balls that hit the receiver in the chest only...
I don\'t know if they count balls that hit the receiver in the chest and/or arms..
I don\'t know if, as long as the ball hits the WR hands, they count it..
... but again, when applied evenly to all teams, it is still a valid measurement...

..so what I am basically saying is what you just read...





[Edited on 13/2/2005 by Tobias-Reiper]

An AB Option???
 

An AB Option???
 

Anybody got a tivo? Record any games? Want to see something that will settle this? Go look at where Hassleback hit his WRs when the dropped the ball vs where Brooks hit his.

There must have been 15 times this year that announcers called a pass a drop that made me see red. Boo goes on a 15 yard seam route and sits in the middle of the field b/w a zone. Brooks throws the ball 5 feet over his head - Boo goes up and gets his hands on it, but doesn\'t come down with it. The announcers say, \"That was a bit high, but it\'s a ball Boo is supposed to catch.\" Yeah, but then its a pass that Brooks is supposed to throw at the numbers. So that\'s the WR\'s fault. He\'s supposed to sell out and fully extend his body in the middle of the field b/c Brooks can\'t deliver a pass on-target. Everyone says that \"if it hits your hands you can catch it.\" Did anyone on this board play football? I played WR in high school. Not exactly the NFL by any stretch of the imagination, but do you know how difficult of a concept that is? Here\'s an idea. Go out in the back yard with a buddy, run full speed across his face and have him deliver a ball to you a foot behind your back shoulder and see how hard it is to catch that without anyone coming to take your head off. Or try having him throw as hard as he can from ten yards away at your front foot or knee, then try and go down and get that.

An AB Option???
 

Nice points Who.

An AB Option???
 

Who,

You know that lots of guys here played. We understand that the pass-catch mechanism is nowhere near as easy as the pros (even AB and Horn) make it look.

I don\'t know what your point is, but it does go to this: recording dropped passes will be too difficult, since some people think it is a dropped pass when a WR lays out and nips the ball (where that is more often than not merely a badly thrown pass or a route error), and others think it is a dropped pass when a QB nicks the WR shoulder pad causing the ball to go astray.

There is a reason that dropped passes aren\'t recorded - it is too difficult to say what constitutes a dropped pass. That is my view at the momment anyway.

As far as the pass-catch mechanism goes, it isn\'t exactly easy to put a ball between some defenders, onto a near full speed WR in stride, while somewhere between three and seven angry men try and pound you and your body is in a wide-open throwing stroke.

It seems to me this dropped pass stuff is far from resolved then.

An AB Option???
 

Who Dat, when I was a kid, I use to live next door to this guy who, at the time, was probably in his mid-thirties. Every time he would come home, he would holler to me, \"Where\'s the football?\" I would go in and get it, and he would throw me pass after pass after pass. I would like to think that I developed some pretty good hands because of him. Our favorite route to throw and catch was the sideline route, or, in our case, the ditch route. I would go down and out to the ditch and he would throw it so that I would have to tip-toe at the ditch to \"stay in bounds\" and still catch it. As fate would have it, while playing JC ball at Perk, I was playing CB one night and was covering a guy who was running a down and out. When the QB threw the ball, I broke on it and had a chance to use all that practice for one catch that required me tip-toeing the sideline as I caught it for an interception. Man, I loved throwing the ball with that guy.

Anyway, I don\'t know how I got into that story, but in response to your post, I agree that the throw you are talking about when you are going across the field and the ball is thrown behind you is probably the most difficult catch to make...and it doesn\'t help when you have to worry about being leveled just as the ball is hitting your hands. It is difficult enough to make the catch uncovered, but having that extra element added to it makes it almost impossible.

An AB Option???
 

... well, we can twist this a little bit...
...why is a QB credited with a completion when a WR twisted his body in mid-air and reached behind his back to make a grab?
...why is the QB credited with a completion when a receiver stretches one arm out out to tip a ball in mid air to even have a chance to catch it, and somehow ends up with the ball?
..why is a QB credited for throwing a TD when the WR got the ball 5 yds from the LOS and ran it 20+ to the end zone?

.... anyway, I guess there\'s one thing we can agree on: if we cannot use the \"dropped pass\" argument for Hasselbeck\'s benefit, then neither can we use it for Brooks\' benefit, o5r any QB for that matter...

An AB Option???
 

T-R,

Agreed. The stat doesn\'t help Hass, but it doesn\'t help AB either.