At last I see the light

FrenzyFan · 02-15-2005, 11:22 AM

The difference between those those people and you (since we are now using \"you\" instead of the indefinite \"some authors\"), is that they are calling for Brooks\' head, Haslett\'s head, Riley\'s head, etc. They are holding those other areas of the team (that are most definitely a problem) accountable for their actions. They equally berate mistakes and bad play in every area of our team. Those other people call for the correction of those mistakes.

Aaron Brooks has had more time than most of the players on this team to rise to play his position well. Somehow you seem to feel justified in calling for the head of people in other positions after a much shorter time - but seemingly can give Brooks all the time in the world.

You absolve Brooks, but not the other problem areas.

GumboBC · 02-15-2005, 11:44 AM

The difference between those those people and you (since we are now using \"you\" instead of the indefinite \"some authors\"), is that they are calling for Brooks\' head, Haslett\'s head, Riley\'s head, etc. They are holding those other areas of the team (that are most definitely a problem) accountable for their actions. They equally berate mistakes and bad play in every area of our team. Those other people call for the correction of those mistakes.

Aaron Brooks has had more time than most of the players on this team to rise to play his position well. Somehow you seem to feel justified in calling for the head of people in other positions after a much shorter time - but seemingly can give Brooks all the time in the world.

You absolve Brooks, but not the other problem areas.

I don\'t \"absolve\" Brooks from ANYTHING!!

To be honest, there are growing doubts in my mind about Brooks.

I\'ve seen the good, the bad, the ugly. But I\'ve seen it with Brett Favre, Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Bulger, and many more.

The bottom line for me is ... Brooks, while he\'s had his own problems, he\'s had differnt problems to contend with every year.

I know you\'re going to take these as \"excuses\" but they are legitimate:

- Brooks tore a ligament in his shoulder one year.
- Deuce has gotten hurt for 2 years.
- Donte was injured for the better part of 2 years.
- Terrible offensive line play this past year.

Then there\'s the BIG thing. Our defense has sucked for 4-years.

All things considered, I can\'t hold Brooks accoutable for our records the past few years.

I can hold Brooks accountable for the \"mystery\" fumbles.

I can hold Brooks accountable for making a few stupid plays. And it was only a few.

I can hold Brooks accountable for trying to do too much and costing us turnovers.

Put Brooks behind a good offensive line (which we haven\'t had for 2-years!) and keep Deuce healthy, and I think he will be one of the better QBs in the league.

That\'s my opinion and that\'s simply the way I feel.

[Edited on 15/2/2005 by GumboBC]

GumboBC · 02-15-2005, 12:01 PM

The dispute here is not that we are a QB away from a championship -- for now AB is not near the top of the list of immediate needs. He is an above averga QB \\. He has the ability to win games on his own as well as lose games on his own. Can we win a superbowl with him -- absolutely -- probably not but --- My opinion -- give him a chance to grow with the rest of the team. If we improve in the other areas we need improvement on and he still is inconsistent etc then dump him -- but don\'t waste the effort of replacing him until we get the other pieces of the puzzle in place. And this is not an undying endorsement of AB -- rather it is a realistic view of where the Saints are today and how do we get to the next level.

That\'s one of the better posts I have read in a loooooooooong time!!

JKool · 02-15-2005, 12:17 PM

I actually wonder why the Brooks thing generates such anger?

As near as I can tell, most people think that atheletically speaking Brooks is pretty good, mentally he is fairly poor, and that overall he is no better than a middling QB. That seems to be well accepted.

People are so very interested in how much blame he should take, whether he is a serious or secondary problem, with whom he should be replaced (if anyone).

I have been a victim of the frustration that surrounds discussing Brooks, I am not going to lie. However, I don\'t know if I can undestang it just yet.

Here is my current hypothesis: since everyone pretty well agrees on the facts, all there is to disagree about is how a given poster responds to those facts (i.e. his feelings about the facts). Since no argument can be made that hasn\'t been heard, the only thing left to do is to state ones\' feelings loudly and repeatedly. It reminds me of a bar fight: people who are too drunk to reason, have lost track of the point, and know that they feel differently about something have only one way to solve their dispute.

Just a thought.

By the way, we\'ve agreed that the Raven\'s Waterboy is the solution to all our woes - he\'s got heart, he\'s got skills, and he\'s been linked to Paris and Lindsey... get him, do it.

FrenzyFan · 02-15-2005, 12:21 PM

Those things you mentioned are excuses. They are also reasons. They most certainly affect Brooks\' performance. They also most certainly don\'t excuse his performance.

I am somewhat cheered to hear that you have \"growing doubts\" about Brooks. The point still stands that you only now begin to doubt him - while other players (with much fewer items of baggage) do not get the same benefit-of-the-doubt. Your posts about Joe Horn are a perfect example.

You call out Joe\'s lack of YAC, but make no allowance for the fact the Brooks almost always has a part in that lack of production. You also neglect the fact that Horn is our most prolific receiver and always covered by the best defender, and in most cases double-teamed. Why doesn\'t Joe Horn get the same level of forgiveness?

The difference between Horn and Brooks is that Horn produces when we need it, week in and week out. He is consistent and dependable - no matter how gimped and broken he is and no matter how \"old\". Joe Horn continues to pull our butt\'s out of the fire even when we are down 14 points and the other team KNOWS we are throwing it to him. Yet you cannot seem to find it in you to support him. We never know week-to-week what AB will do (or which AB will show up to play), and for some reason it\'s everything else\'s fault.

If you cannot see the inherent unfairness in that, I don\'t know how you can call yourself objective or realistic.

GumboBC · 02-15-2005, 12:33 PM

The point still stands that you only now begin to doubt him - while other players (with much fewer items of baggage) do not get the same benefit-of-the-doubt.

Surly you\'re not suggesting that I should evaluate a an offensive guard or tackle the same way I do a QB?! And if that\'s what you\'re suggesting, then, I see the game a little differently than you.

There\'s no doubt that QB is the most diffcult position in football !!

Victor Riley, might be salvageable. But we can find another offensive guard pretty easily. I don\'t think the samething can be said of the QB position.

Can we find another QB? Sure! But who? A rookie? Kurt Warner? Jeff Garcia? Is there some back-up out there that I don\'t know about? Or -- will anyone other than Brooks work? Seriously, tell me who?

The difference between Horn and Brooks is that Horn produces when we need it, week in and week out. He is consistent and dependable - no matter how gimped and broken he is and no matter how \"old\".

There\'s a much bigger differnce between Brooks and Horn!!

Joe Horn is a receiver. All he has to do is run routes and catch the football.

Aaron Brooks is playing the most difficult position in the NFL. The offensive line doesn\'t affect ol\' Joe that much. But, it sure affects Brooks.

I\'m not going to list the things that affects Brooks that have very little affect on Joe Horn. I believe you know all of this already.

It seems you just don\'t understand the differnce between the QB position and other positions. Or you\'re just not willing to look at the differences. Which might explain why we see things differently.

JKool · 02-15-2005, 12:38 PM

FF,

Here is another thought: why are you so concerned about what Gumbo thinks?

I can understand presenting him with arguments, trying to figure out what makes him tick, and so on - for the purpose of crafting better arguments, but if it is just because he thinks it, I don\'t see the point.

He just said that a whole bunch of things were Aaron\'s fault.

Furthermore, Joe\'s lack of YAC just happens to be a hot topic these days. People understand that part of that is on AB, but YAC is WR stat for a reason - it says something about what the WR does with the ball after he gets it, how open he can get and so on. If that isn\'t at least partly on Joe, I don\'t know what you are talking about.

It seems to me we get caught up in a problem between who is causally repsonsible (has a part in) and who is blameworthy (that is a kind of causal responsibility but not merely a causal responsibility) a lot.

AB is is causally responsible for delivering the pass and to whom, but it is a more difficult question who is praiseworth or blameworthy for what what happens after the ball is delivered (sometimes it is AB, sometimes it is whomever gets the ball).

FrenzyFan · 02-15-2005, 12:43 PM

You can accuse me of \"not knowing the difference\" between NFL positions. You can talk about Riley and the OL and their \"lack of effect\" on Joe Horn, though I made no mention of that in my last post. You can attempt to deflect from the point of my last post in any way you see fit.

The point remains:
1) You forgive ABs poor play by blaming it on other factors.
2) You tear down productive, pro-bowl players without making any allowances for how things might affect their output.

Now, go ahead and come back and attack me while ignoring the point. Maybe this time you can say something mean about my mother.

GumboBC · 02-15-2005, 12:57 PM

You can accuse me of \"not knowing the difference\" between NFL positions. You can talk about Riley and the OL and their \"lack of effect\" on Joe Horn, though I made no mention of that in my last post. You can attempt to deflect from the point of my last post in any way you see fit.

The point remains:
1) You forgive ABs poor play by blaming it on other factors.
2) You tear down productive, pro-bowl players without making any allowances for how things might affect their output.

Now, go ahead and come back and attack me while ignoring the point. Maybe this time you can say something mean about my mother.

FF --

Let\'s get something straight here.

a.) It\'s you calling me out and say I blame NOTHING on AB.
b.) I\'m the one who\'s having to defend myself!

The point remains:
1) You forgive ABs poor play by blaming it on other factors.
2) You tear down productive, pro-bowl players without making any allowances for how things might affect their output.

1. That\'s something you\'re dreaming up. I\'ve blamed all kinds of things on Brooks. But, it\'s simply not good enough for you. You think unitl I agree with you that I\'m some fool for bringing up other factors!!

2. Again, you\'re dreaming that up instead of reading what I really post.

What did I say about Joe Horn? I said he was a damn good receiver. I said he was in the top 10 to 15 receivers in the entire NFL. I also said he was last in YAC.

What have I ever said about Deuce? Deuce is a great runningback. Probably on of the 5 best. That is, when he\'s healthy.

It folks like you who I have to explain what I REALLY said and spend very little time actually debating what I really said!!

Go show me where I said ANY of the things that YOU are ACCUSING me of and we\'ll talk!!

Until that time, I really don\'t care to have to defend myself about something I NEVER said!!

Now, go ahead and come back and attack me while ignoring the point. Maybe this time you can say something mean about my mother

.

Attack you? Talk about your mother? I\'m sorry you\'re getting so upset. But, I haven\'t attacked you in any kind of way.

Agian, I\'m the one having to defend myself. I\'m just trying to stick with the topics you bring up. No need to go there.

FrenzyFan · 02-15-2005, 01:07 PM

I believe that if you check my posts above, prior to you responding directly to me - I did not mention anyone in particular. I am especially careful in my writings to ensure that noone is singled out. By your response above and your beginning to reference \"you\" (refering to me) in your posts, it became a dialogue between us, rather than commentary about posts, etc.

For the record, I am not upset. This is a message board. I don\'t usually get upset on message boards. I find them ironic sometimes, but they don\'t make me upset.

My point, that again you\'ve refused to answer (other than by saying \"Did not!\") is that you seemingly unfairly evaluate other players, in comparison to how you evaluate Brooks.

Again, I did not \"call you out\" as you put it. I wrote about my impression of \"some authors\" (look it up, I am not inventing this). You jumped right into me. Are you perhaps a little self-conscious? Perhaps you mistook me for someone else on this board?

This discussion appears to be upsetting you, so I will discontinue it. I plan to keep reading you. As I mentioned, I think you bring a lot of excitement to this board - though I believe you unfairly allow a lot of slack when it comes to AB and are extremely critical of other players (most especially those who have been critical of Brooks, it seems).

Luck!

02-15-2005, 11:22 AM	#11
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	At last I see the light The difference between those those people and you (since we are now using \"you\" instead of the indefinite \"some authors\"), is that they are calling for Brooks\' head, Haslett\'s head, Riley\'s head, etc. They are holding those other areas of the team (that are most definitely a problem) accountable for their actions. They equally berate mistakes and bad play in every area of our team. Those other people call for the correction of those mistakes. Aaron Brooks has had more time than most of the players on this team to rise to play his position well. Somehow you seem to feel justified in calling for the head of people in other positions after a much shorter time - but seemingly can give Brooks all the time in the world. You absolve Brooks, but not the other problem areas.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

02-15-2005, 11:44 AM	#12
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	At last I see the light The difference between those those people and you (since we are now using \"you\" instead of the indefinite \"some authors\"), is that they are calling for Brooks\' head, Haslett\'s head, Riley\'s head, etc. They are holding those other areas of the team (that are most definitely a problem) accountable for their actions. They equally berate mistakes and bad play in every area of our team. Those other people call for the correction of those mistakes. Aaron Brooks has had more time than most of the players on this team to rise to play his position well. Somehow you seem to feel justified in calling for the head of people in other positions after a much shorter time - but seemingly can give Brooks all the time in the world. You absolve Brooks, but not the other problem areas. I don\'t \"absolve\" Brooks from ANYTHING!! To be honest, there are growing doubts in my mind about Brooks. I\'ve seen the good, the bad, the ugly. But I\'ve seen it with Brett Favre, Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Bulger, and many more. The bottom line for me is ... Brooks, while he\'s had his own problems, he\'s had differnt problems to contend with every year. I know you\'re going to take these as \"excuses\" but they are legitimate: - Brooks tore a ligament in his shoulder one year. - Deuce has gotten hurt for 2 years. - Donte was injured for the better part of 2 years. - Terrible offensive line play this past year. Then there\'s the BIG thing. Our defense has sucked for 4-years. All things considered, I can\'t hold Brooks accoutable for our records the past few years. I can hold Brooks accountable for the \"mystery\" fumbles. I can hold Brooks accountable for making a few stupid plays. And it was only a few. I can hold Brooks accountable for trying to do too much and costing us turnovers. Put Brooks behind a good offensive line (which we haven\'t had for 2-years!) and keep Deuce healthy, and I think he will be one of the better QBs in the league. That\'s my opinion and that\'s simply the way I feel. [Edited on 15/2/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-15-2005, 12:01 PM	#13
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	At last I see the light The dispute here is not that we are a QB away from a championship -- for now AB is not near the top of the list of immediate needs. He is an above averga QB \\. He has the ability to win games on his own as well as lose games on his own. Can we win a superbowl with him -- absolutely -- probably not but --- My opinion -- give him a chance to grow with the rest of the team. If we improve in the other areas we need improvement on and he still is inconsistent etc then dump him -- but don\'t waste the effort of replacing him until we get the other pieces of the puzzle in place. And this is not an undying endorsement of AB -- rather it is a realistic view of where the Saints are today and how do we get to the next level. That\'s one of the better posts I have read in a loooooooooong time!!
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-15-2005, 12:17 PM	#14
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	At last I see the light I actually wonder why the Brooks thing generates such anger? As near as I can tell, most people think that atheletically speaking Brooks is pretty good, mentally he is fairly poor, and that overall he is no better than a middling QB. That seems to be well accepted. People are so very interested in how much blame he should take, whether he is a serious or secondary problem, with whom he should be replaced (if anyone). I have been a victim of the frustration that surrounds discussing Brooks, I am not going to lie. However, I don\'t know if I can undestang it just yet. Here is my current hypothesis: since everyone pretty well agrees on the facts, all there is to disagree about is how a given poster responds to those facts (i.e. his feelings about the facts). Since no argument can be made that hasn\'t been heard, the only thing left to do is to state ones\' feelings loudly and repeatedly. It reminds me of a bar fight: people who are too drunk to reason, have lost track of the point, and know that they feel differently about something have only one way to solve their dispute. Just a thought. By the way, we\'ve agreed that the Raven\'s Waterboy is the solution to all our woes - he\'s got heart, he\'s got skills, and he\'s been linked to Paris and Lindsey... get him, do it.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-15-2005, 12:21 PM	#15
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	At last I see the light Those things you mentioned are excuses. They are also reasons. They most certainly affect Brooks\' performance. They also most certainly don\'t excuse his performance. I am somewhat cheered to hear that you have \"growing doubts\" about Brooks. The point still stands that you only now begin to doubt him - while other players (with much fewer items of baggage) do not get the same benefit-of-the-doubt. Your posts about Joe Horn are a perfect example. You call out Joe\'s lack of YAC, but make no allowance for the fact the Brooks almost always has a part in that lack of production. You also neglect the fact that Horn is our most prolific receiver and always covered by the best defender, and in most cases double-teamed. Why doesn\'t Joe Horn get the same level of forgiveness? The difference between Horn and Brooks is that Horn produces when we need it, week in and week out. He is consistent and dependable - no matter how gimped and broken he is and no matter how \"old\". Joe Horn continues to pull our butt\'s out of the fire even when we are down 14 points and the other team KNOWS we are throwing it to him. Yet you cannot seem to find it in you to support him. We never know week-to-week what AB will do (or which AB will show up to play), and for some reason it\'s everything else\'s fault. If you cannot see the inherent unfairness in that, I don\'t know how you can call yourself objective or realistic.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

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02-15-2005, 12:33 PM	#16
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	At last I see the light The point still stands that you only now begin to doubt him - while other players (with much fewer items of baggage) do not get the same benefit-of-the-doubt. Surly you\'re not suggesting that I should evaluate a an offensive guard or tackle the same way I do a QB?! And if that\'s what you\'re suggesting, then, I see the game a little differently than you. There\'s no doubt that QB is the most diffcult position in football !! Victor Riley, might be salvageable. But we can find another offensive guard pretty easily. I don\'t think the samething can be said of the QB position. Can we find another QB? Sure! But who? A rookie? Kurt Warner? Jeff Garcia? Is there some back-up out there that I don\'t know about? Or -- will anyone other than Brooks work? Seriously, tell me who? The difference between Horn and Brooks is that Horn produces when we need it, week in and week out. He is consistent and dependable - no matter how gimped and broken he is and no matter how \"old\". There\'s a much bigger differnce between Brooks and Horn!! Joe Horn is a receiver. All he has to do is run routes and catch the football. Aaron Brooks is playing the most difficult position in the NFL. The offensive line doesn\'t affect ol\' Joe that much. But, it sure affects Brooks. I\'m not going to list the things that affects Brooks that have very little affect on Joe Horn. I believe you know all of this already. It seems you just don\'t understand the differnce between the QB position and other positions. Or you\'re just not willing to look at the differences. Which might explain why we see things differently.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-15-2005, 12:38 PM	#17
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	At last I see the light FF, Here is another thought: why are you so concerned about what Gumbo thinks? I can understand presenting him with arguments, trying to figure out what makes him tick, and so on - for the purpose of crafting better arguments, but if it is just because he thinks it, I don\'t see the point. He just said that a whole bunch of things were Aaron\'s fault. Furthermore, Joe\'s lack of YAC just happens to be a hot topic these days. People understand that part of that is on AB, but YAC is WR stat for a reason - it says something about what the WR does with the ball after he gets it, how open he can get and so on. If that isn\'t at least partly on Joe, I don\'t know what you are talking about. It seems to me we get caught up in a problem between who is causally repsonsible (has a part in) and who is blameworthy (that is a kind of causal responsibility but not merely a causal responsibility) a lot. AB is is causally responsible for delivering the pass and to whom, but it is a more difficult question who is praiseworth or blameworthy for what what happens after the ball is delivered (sometimes it is AB, sometimes it is whomever gets the ball).
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-15-2005, 12:43 PM	#18
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	At last I see the light You can accuse me of \"not knowing the difference\" between NFL positions. You can talk about Riley and the OL and their \"lack of effect\" on Joe Horn, though I made no mention of that in my last post. You can attempt to deflect from the point of my last post in any way you see fit. The point remains: 1) You forgive ABs poor play by blaming it on other factors. 2) You tear down productive, pro-bowl players without making any allowances for how things might affect their output. Now, go ahead and come back and attack me while ignoring the point. Maybe this time you can say something mean about my mother.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

02-15-2005, 12:57 PM	#19
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	At last I see the light You can accuse me of \"not knowing the difference\" between NFL positions. You can talk about Riley and the OL and their \"lack of effect\" on Joe Horn, though I made no mention of that in my last post. You can attempt to deflect from the point of my last post in any way you see fit. The point remains: 1) You forgive ABs poor play by blaming it on other factors. 2) You tear down productive, pro-bowl players without making any allowances for how things might affect their output. Now, go ahead and come back and attack me while ignoring the point. Maybe this time you can say something mean about my mother. FF -- Let\'s get something straight here. a.) It\'s you calling me out and say I blame NOTHING on AB. b.) I\'m the one who\'s having to defend myself! The point remains: 1) You forgive ABs poor play by blaming it on other factors. 2) You tear down productive, pro-bowl players without making any allowances for how things might affect their output. 1. That\'s something you\'re dreaming up. I\'ve blamed all kinds of things on Brooks. But, it\'s simply not good enough for you. You think unitl I agree with you that I\'m some fool for bringing up other factors!! 2. Again, you\'re dreaming that up instead of reading what I really post. What did I say about Joe Horn? I said he was a damn good receiver. I said he was in the top 10 to 15 receivers in the entire NFL. I also said he was last in YAC. What have I ever said about Deuce? Deuce is a great runningback. Probably on of the 5 best. That is, when he\'s healthy. It folks like you who I have to explain what I REALLY said and spend very little time actually debating what I really said!! Go show me where I said ANY of the things that YOU are ACCUSING me of and we\'ll talk!! Until that time, I really don\'t care to have to defend myself about something I NEVER said!! Now, go ahead and come back and attack me while ignoring the point. Maybe this time you can say something mean about my mother . Attack you? Talk about your mother? I\'m sorry you\'re getting so upset. But, I haven\'t attacked you in any kind of way. Agian, I\'m the one having to defend myself. I\'m just trying to stick with the topics you bring up. No need to go there.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-15-2005, 01:07 PM	#20
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	At last I see the light I believe that if you check my posts above, prior to you responding directly to me - I did not mention anyone in particular. I am especially careful in my writings to ensure that noone is singled out. By your response above and your beginning to reference \"you\" (refering to me) in your posts, it became a dialogue between us, rather than commentary about posts, etc. For the record, I am not upset. This is a message board. I don\'t usually get upset on message boards. I find them ironic sometimes, but they don\'t make me upset. My point, that again you\'ve refused to answer (other than by saying \"Did not!\") is that you seemingly unfairly evaluate other players, in comparison to how you evaluate Brooks. Again, I did not \"call you out\" as you put it. I wrote about my impression of \"some authors\" (look it up, I am not inventing this). You jumped right into me. Are you perhaps a little self-conscious? Perhaps you mistook me for someone else on this board? This discussion appears to be upsetting you, so I will discontinue it. I plan to keep reading you. As I mentioned, I think you bring a lot of excitement to this board - though I believe you unfairly allow a lot of slack when it comes to AB and are extremely critical of other players (most especially those who have been critical of Brooks, it seems). Luck!
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg