3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Yeah, let\'s get back to some football discussion.

I\'ll keep this simple:

The Saints offense made 18.2 first downs per game - NFL rank=17th. Saints defense ranked 32nd!

The Eagles offense made 18.8 first downs per game - NFL rank= 14th. Eagles defense ranked 10th.

What do I draw from this conclusion?

The Eagles defense was good and ours sucked.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Glad you asked lynwwod. Took me some time but I got what you wanted. These stats are keeping in mind that our offense WAS NOT SCORING and was going 3 and out on the defense. Also I didn\'t add the turnovers the defense cause early cause it was too time consuming, but we were top 10 in takeaways and we had 3 alone in the first half of the Seattle game. Draw your own conclusions. Anyway, if you are looking for what I think you were, except for a few games you will be disappointed. I will also add the points each team scored against us 1st quarter while our offense was doing nothing.

SEA- 1st drive punt. 0 points first quarter given up.
SF- 3 and out 1st drive. 3 points first quarter
ST.L- 1st drive TD. 7 points given up 1st quarter
ARI- Brooks fumbles at the 1. D forces punt. 7 points total first quarter
TB- 1st drive field goal. 3 pts 1st quarter.
Minn-1st drive INT. 7 pts. 1st quarter
OAK- 1st drive punt. 6 pts
SD-1st 2 drives TDs. 14 pts.
KC- 1st drive TD. 10 pts.
DEN. 1st 3 drives score. 17 pts then Mike Lewis fumbles and they add a FG. 20 pts scored.
ATL- 1st drive 3 and out and punt.
CAR- 1st 2 drives FGs. Deuce fumbles. CAR adds TD. 13 points scored.
DAL- Berker kicks off out of bounds. Dallas 1st drive no points. 10 1st quarter.
TB- 1st drive TD. 7 for the quarter.
ATL-1st drive punt. Zero points 1st quarter.
CAR- 1st drive FG. 3 for the quarter.

As you can see, before the bye and early in the season, the D was doing a wonderful job in the 1st quarter while our offense was doing poo game after game after game after game. I didn\'t even include 1st quarter TOs unless they occured on the first drive. They went through a stretch of real bad games, then got better again. Offense still doing poo. In the games where special teams bailed the O out in the first quarter late in the season, they played very well again. Now who let who down again?

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Just to clarify, this means in the first quarter when our offense was doing NOTHING, the defense was giving up 7.3215 points. This is with the offense turning the ball over and going 3 and out. But I guess some want perfection from one unit while another is crapping all over them. And I even kept the fact that some turnovers by the offense or special teams led directly to points or that number would be lower if I had taken that out. Yeah, I see how anyone can feel it\'s all the D\'s fault. :icon_bs:

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Whodi, you keep talking about turnovers in the first game. How many did the defense create in, say, the next 10 games? Just curious. You use that ONE game as some sort of indication that our defense didn\'t suck. I think we all generally agree that they DID SUCK, or do you disagree?

I guess what I\'m getting at is are you really trying to make folks think the offense was responsible for the #32 ranking of the defense?

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Thanks for the info. I do believe that our defense would have at least kept us at least close in the majority of the games if our offense could have provided early points and some balance. What i was looking for was some type of comparison on what the other terams managed on their first drive. with all the field goals and bad defending field posistion i\'m not down on the defense at all.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Saintsfan do you think that our offense deserved the ranking it got not being able to score practically at alll in the first half? The offense and defense although separate are a team. one does feed off the other. with the offense crapping out in the first half we were lucky to hold other teams to the points we did. Not that our defense had flaws but not 32nd rated flaws. The defense \"performed\" better during the last four games could it be because our offense outscored our opponents 43-26 in the first half of those games?

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Deserved it\'s ranking? I\'m not sure I understand what you mean, \"deserved\". Team? Yeah, and throw in special teams too, they all determine the outcome, and I agree with this.

My thing is that it appears as tho Whodi is attempting to blame the offense for the completely crappy defense, and while the offense can at times put the defense in bad situations, that doesn\'t account for being DEAD LAST.

I don\'t think a defense that gives up near record yardage over the course of a season should attempt to blame too much of that on the offense.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

well points win games and we didn\'t score any. The coment about deserved was worded badly.We can look at any stat to prove a point but in the end points win games and the offense wasn\'t doing it. The defense was holding the opponents to 7.3 points according to some stats posted earlier. I just feel that what the offense did during the first half of games put our defense in a very bad spot and they still held oppenents to more field goals than touchdowns. If our offense could have produced something i thin kthe defense would have played even better as the game progressed. The defense played better the last 4 games but so did the offense by scoring more in the first half

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Exactly the point I was trying to make lynwood. saintfan, would you say by these numbers our offense DIDN\"T hurt the D? Really? NOONE said the defense wasn\'t bad. But if you have a defense that is 10th in creating turnovers, which we were, there is obviously a bigger story there. I really don\'t know how else to explain it. Offense gets the ball, does nothing. Other team\'s O gets the ball, does nothing, or maybe gets a field goal. Our offense gets the ball back does nothing, or turns it over. Defense has to stop the opposing team again, say they do or say worse case they give up a TD. Now you are down 7 or 10 depending, but your offense has had two shots and failed to even produce a first down, WHICH IS THE NORM. And we weren\'t playing Pittsburgh\'s defense every week, or even a team close. SO offense gets a 3rd try, 2 runs and an incompletion later, it\'s the 2nd quarter and not only have they not SCORED, they may not have a first down. So in your mind, the defense is responsible for not still holdung up after that? Wow.

Again, we were 10th in the league. NFL.com, go look it up. I even provided a link earlier in the thread. Before I repeat myself, This is what I said earlier.

And followed with this If you\'d like to read back. Please tell me how the offense wasn\'t at least halfway responsible for how poor our D showed. Please.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

So then you ARE trying to say the performance of our D is the fault of the O? Or not? I still can\'t tell. You say we ranked 10th and you give me the Seattle game. Ok. How many did we get in the 10 games that followed Seattle. I haven\'t looked, I\'m just curious. You see to be saying our defense gave the offense all the oppurtunity they should have needed, and I simply disagree with that. You say they ranked 10th in turnovers. Ok. I say they ranked 32nd overall. ;)

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Hmm, okay I said this See. That\'s not all the balme, that\'s half. I am not gonna go look up the stats for 10 games after the Seattle game, you can. We had 3 turnovers first half of that game, we had 33 total takeawys on the year. so even if we got ZERO the next 10 games, that means we had 30 in the last 5? Not likely huh? That is simple math. Again, you can work that out for yourself.

You can disagree, I don\'t mind that, but where\'s your facts? Any? I have used them for my argument, now where is yours? Show me how a team with a defense top 10 in turnovers that has an offense who not only doesn\'t score in the first quarter, but regularly goes three and out and turns the ball over didn\'t have their offense hurting the D? You want someone to provide you all the facts so you can disagree with none. Seems kinda unfair. The stats I provided can be seen by anyone who wants to at NFL.com. Why don\'t YOU tell ME how many turnovers they got in the next 10 games. Unless you wanna go with the they got zero theory, then that leaves 30 for the final 5 games. IF you are averaging 6 turnovers a game, your offense could stay in the locker room cause they wouldn\'t be needed.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Stats? People throw stats around here all day long. I don\'t need stats to tell me our defense sucked. Give me the Colts offense and our defense still sucked. You can spin it anyway you\'d like. The TEAM is responsible, and many team\'s offense left their Defense in bad positions from time to time, but ours was ranked DEAD LAST. I have a pretty good idea why you\'d focus on our offense here, but I\'m not buyin what you\'re sellin\'. They were DEAD LAST for a LOT of reasons, the least of which was our offense putting them in a bad position. They were Bad defending the Pass and Bad defending the Run. Your stats will prove that out. You don\'t give up the yards they gave up because you\'re defending a short field. You disagree? I guess you do. We simply disagree.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Huh? What does a short field have to do with anything? It\'s AMOUNT of possessions given to the opposing team. Our offense gave opposing teams far more possessions than the D can handle. Short field, long field, whatever. You should have said initially you had an opinion on this matter and nothing was gonna change that. I wouldn\'t have bothered then. But I will still try. Explain to me what is longer. One 80 yard drive, or 2 50 yard drives? Now if you agree it is 2 50 yard drives, what does that have to do with a short field. AMOUNT OF POSSESSIONS INCREASES THAT NUMBER. It\'s as plain as day. If we are going 3 and out on O, do you somehow see that as helping our D? If we are not scoring, that is somehow helping our D? Maybe the D should do both, score and stop the other team. That seems to be what you want. How does a D help their offense more than giving them the ball back more than 22 other teams? How does an offense hurt a D more by not only NOT taking advantage of this, but turning the ball over themselves?

So if you don\'t need stats, why do you need to continually point out they were ranked 32nd? And why would you ask me to find STATS on turnovers in the 10 games after Seattle if stats aren\'t important to you? Like I said, it will be easier on both of us if next time you just advise me your opinion is already formed and won\'t be changed, you won\'t look up anything to support what you are saying, and I won\'t waste either of our time responding. There is really no challenging the \"this is what I saw with my own eyes so no matter what you find to the contrary I ain\'t believing it\" defense.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Let\'s put up this hypothetical and you\'re the D-Coordinator:

Say your offense is on and off the field in the blink of an eye.

Because they don\'t gain yardage, you are forced to defend a shorter field against a more aggressive offense.

You give up a couple of scores, but the Offense continues to struggle. Now what?

Do you:

A --- Continue doing what you are doing
B --- Become more aggressive, taking risks in the hope that you can force a turnover and limit downfield advance while knowing that you\'ll give up big plays.

I\'m going to say B, because that\'s what any good coach would do when behind by 10 - 14 points early and the Offense struggling.

So, given that more risks are being taken, what are the odds that those risks will fail, especially when the offense doesn\'t kick in? If you\'re going to lose, what\'s the difference losing by 3 or 30, unless you\'re not trying to win?

I\'m just posing this to explain why the Saints D was ranked 32nd. It also helps explain why they were ranked 10th in turnovers. Risk/Reward/Penalty. It seems like SOMEONE in the organization was trying to adapt. Too bad it didn\'t work.

I can\'t believe that I\'m defending Venturi. I need a priest.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

It can also be said that our defense hurt our offense. They knew that our defense couldn\'t stop anybody so they had an enormous amount of pressure on them. Therefore the early drops, mistakes, and mental errors.
Boy\'s, we better score a ton cause our defense sucks.
I wonder if this will get 67 various stats to agree/disagree with it?

This is getting ridiculous.
Our offense was average, and our defense was horrible.
Dammed that forest, I wanna see some trees.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Minnesota -- 425 yards passing (5 TD passes in that game)
St. Louis -- 358 yards passing
Oakland -- 350 yards passing
KC -- 311 yards passing
Carolina -- 307 yards passing

We did do pretty well against teams with Rookies or cast offs at QB tho. ;)

Seattle -- 170 yards rushing
San Fran -- 180 yards rushing
Arizona -- 240 was it...yards rushing
Minnesota -- 188 yards rushing
SD -- 251 yards rushing
Denver -- 200 yards rushing
Atlanta -- 186 yards rushing
Carolina -- 132 yards rushing
Dallas -- 121 yards rushing
Tampa Bay -- 169 yards rushing


I think they held the opposing team to under 100 yards rushing 5 times. I rekon they were just tired tho...you blame the offense for %50 of those numbers then? I\'d say we\'ve got a bigger problem. And yeah, I\'d say we disagree. Our defense was DEAD LAST whodi, and Brooks and the offense wasn\'t the reason, but you think like you wanna think. You ain\'t foolin\' me tho. ;)

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

You know what\'s REALLY funny?

These same guys that are trying to defend Venturi and the defense are the same guys who are bashing them in other threads!

We got some guys saying that the offense was at least HALF to blame for the 32nd rating. And other folks are trying to pin anything they can on the offense.

Running time off the clock certainly helps the defensive ranking. Running the football is the best way to run time off the clock.

Too bad our running game ranked 27th in the NFL this year. That might have a little something to do with it.

Yeah, we should have just pounded Deuce up the middle and went with a dink and dunk passing game.

We\'ve got folks defending the defense? The defense?

Good Lord!!

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

No just this one. How can the defense let down the offense when first game of the season they gave the offense to 3 turnovers IN THE FIRST HALF, and the offense only managed 7 points. All the while the defense held the opposing team to 14, while the offense turned the ball over(we know who) giving Seattle the ball in the red zone. First game of the season. Kinda sets the tone doesn\'t it?

Um, our offense was horrible in the first quarter of just about every game. While the stats show our defense wasn\'t in every game. But believe whatever you want. This IS getting ridiculous. \"Hey, screw the defense. Stats say they are ranked 32nd. I don\'t care if the offense didn\'t score a point all year, they shoulda held the opposing teams to zero too so we coulda had 16 ties, unless the offense decided to score at some point, then the defense can allow a score.\" That about right?

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

I have absolutely no earthly clue what you are trying to say here.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Because they gave up 246 yards passing and 170 yards rushing.


I\'ll tell ya what the stats show definitively, and that is that they couldn\'t stop the run. It also shows that when they ran up against a QB worth a flip they couldn\'t stop the pass either. Spin it any way you want to Whodi, but that\'s what the stats show.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

MY GOD!! That is awful!!

Our damn OFFENSE couldn\'t stop anyone.. :P

[Edited on 23/2/2005 by GumboBC]

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Didn\'t you just say stats are thrown out all over the place? So I can just ignore these right? And who the hell is talking about Brooks? We are talking about the OFFENSE, or did you forget that? Gumbo, Mr. the offense doesn\'t hurt the defense just said this So even he agrees the offense was a problem, though it may be something different in a few minutes.

Here\'s some more stats for you, Saints 12 first downs against Seattle. Here\'s the drive chart:

New Orleans Saints

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 12:41 11:42 0:59 Punt NO 19 3 3 0 3 0 NO 22 Punt
2 11:09 8:05 3:04 Interception NO 29 5 8 0 8 1 NO 37 Punt
3 6:37 4:10 2:27 Fumble NO 32 6 40 0 40 1 SEA 35 Fumble
4 14:52 12:10 2:42 Kickoff NO 27 4 27 -5 22 1 NO 49 Punt
5 9:18 8:16 1:02 Punt NO 16 3 1 -12 -11 0 NO 5 Punt 6 6:38 2:54 3:44 Kickoff SEA 47 8 52 -5 47 3 *SEA 6 Touchdown
7 0:17 0:00 0:17 Punt NO 16 1 8 0 8 0 NO 16 End of Half
8 15:00 12:59 2:01 Kickoff SEA 47 3 22 -10 12 0 SEA 38 Fumble 9 11:53 9:05 2:48 Punt NO 20 5 35 0 35 2 SEA 45 Punt
10 4:45 3:40 1:05 Punt NO 16 3 3 -5 -2 0 NO 14 Interception
11 3:06 0:27 2:39 Kickoff NO 24 6 32 0 32 2 SEA 44 Punt
12 12:14 9:27 2:47 Punt NO 24 8 57 0 57 2 *SEA 19 Downs
13 4:41 3:53 0:48 Punt NO 24 3 -7 0 -7 0 NO 17 Punt
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah I can see how 7 points out of 12 possessions with 4 turnovers(including downs) helps the D.

Let\'s look at another one.

New Orleans Saints

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 15:00 8:52 6:08 Kickoff NO 20 11 79 0 79 4 *ARZ 1 Fumble
2 6:49 5:38 1:11 Punt NO 20 3 -1 -5 -6 0 NO 14 Punt
3 4:26 4:16 0:10 Punt NO 49 1 -14 0 -14 0 NO 49 Fumble
4 4:16 14:56 4:20 Kickoff NO 39 8 54 5 59 4 *ARZ 2 Field Goal
5 13:06 11:10 1:56 Punt NO 31 3 8 -5 3 0 NO 34 Punt
6 6:02 3:48 2:14 Fumble NO 1 4 20 0 20 1 NO 21 Punt
7 1:12 0:19 0:53 Kickoff NO 15 4 24 -10 14 1 NO 29 Punt 8 9:54 7:07 2:47 Punt NO 20 5 20 0 20 1 NO 40 Punt 9 1:29 14:54 1:35 Kickoff NO 12 3 13 -10 3 0 NO 15 Punt
10 9:44 8:12 1:32 Kickoff NO 8 3 12 -4 8 0 NO 16 Punt
11 5:02 3:52 1:10 Kickoff NO 20 5 22 -5 17 1 NO 37 Downs 12 1:54 0:00 1:54 Kickoff NO 22 6 28 5 33 2 NO 45 End of Game

It\'s so clear now. Why can\'t I see that 7 punts and three turnovers on 11 possessions has NO EFFECT on the defense? I was so blind this whole time. Give me a break. I could go on and on and on, but it won\'t matter. Believe what you want.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

I kinda figured you would.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Good. ;) Cause if 5 possessions with a turnover to start the game helps the defense in your mind, I really can\'t say anything else. If not scoring on 10 of 11 possessions and that one score being a field goal while turning the ball over 3 times helps the defense, I guess we define bad offense differently.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Even with our offensive issues, if you look at our defense and decide the offense is to blame then yeah, we define bad differently. Aren\'t you the one complaining about making excuses? :P

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

After much thought (about 2-seconds) I have a theory.. :D

Hear me out folks........

Everyone knows our defense is very bad.

Yet, for SOME reason, SOME folks want the offense to take a good portion of the blame.

Who do a LOT of folks think the biggest problem with our offense is?

Okay, answer me this...

Whose fault is it that our offense made our defense look bad?

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Now we are getting somewhere. So the excuses are over for EVERYONE? :o

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

OK gumbo, I\'m going to go out on a limb and say

McCarthy

is to blame for the offense.

He knew he had a less than capable (brainwise) qb who couldn\'t audible out of a paper bag,
He knew he had a serviceable backup rb in Stecker,
He knew that the 2 TE formations weren\'t working and had an all pro FB in the making ready to roll,
He knew he had at least 2 WR who could outrun jackels to a rotting corpse.

Yet he still insisted in running a predictable, stilted, confusing offense.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

xan-

The offense certainly didn\'t sustain enough long drives to keep the defense on the bench. And the bench is the only time our defense looked worth a damn in the first 12-games.

So, if you want to blame the offense for not keeping the defense on the bench, you have a great idea.

There\'s only ONE problem with that idea though:

Deuce game by game:

Seattle L- 16 for 57yds -
San Francisco W 3 for-1yd - Deuce got injured.
Arizona L - Did Not Play
Tampa Bay L -21 for 102- fumbled twice and one was run back or a TD.
Minnesota 18 for 78yds
Oakland W 24 for 42 - Averaged 1.8 yards on 24 carries
San Diego L 17 for 43yds.
Denver L 13 for 42yds.
Carolina 7 for 22
Dallas W 30 for 83yds - Averaged 2.8 yards on 30 carries.
Tampa Bay W 25 for 89yds - Averaged 3.5 yards on 25 carries

It\'s mighty hard to run time off the clock when you can\'t run the fooball.

Also, that great Venturi scheme really hurt.

And it\'s hard to play good defense with some of the players we had on defense. That might explain why we need to upgrade this unit.

Here\'s my 3 biggest reasons why the defense sucked through the first 12-games.

1. Rick Venuri\'s scheme!
2. Deuce couldn\'t run the ball because of injury and a terrible offensive line.
3. Not enough talent at certain positions.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Ahhhhhhhhhhh ...

We\'re getting somewhere.

1. I NEVER said the offense didn\'t hurt the defense SOME!
2. Even though we couldn\'t run the football, it still didn\'t have a lot to do with it.

Other teams, like the Dolphins, were worse at running and throwing the football and still finished in the top 10 in defense.

If the Dolphins and other teams had worse offenses than ours and finished in the top 10, then we sure as heck shouldn\'t have finished anywhere near 32nd!!!!!!!

[Edited on 24/2/2005 by GumboBC]

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Just for fun, what is it that you think my argument is exactly? I bet you missed that entirely. Wanna bet?

CLEARLY, as Kool has said time and again, it\'s a TEAM game. CLEARLY a defense suffers because of what happens with both the offense AND special teams (nobody is saying otherwise that I\'m aware of), but if you\'re selling this \"our defense was bad \'cause of our offense\" crap, you and Whodi and anybody else on that bandwagon are gonna go broke.

So, You and Whodi think we couldn\'t stop a decent QB cause we were on the field too much? You two think we couldn\'t stop the run because we were on the field too much? I think you two were watching a different team to be honest.

We finished 32nd because we don\'t have the ability to stop the run OR the pass, unless we\'re up against a weak QB. Sure, the offense pinned their backs to the wall some, but that is NOT why they ranked 32nd. You think that if you wanna, and we\'ll just agree to disagree, cause I\'m growing tired of arguing with two people bent on ignoring the obvious.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Gator --

Come on dude, just admit the defense was the worst defense in the NFL and be done with it.

Who was worse than our D this year? Anybody?

Name the 3 worst defenses in the NFL?

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

Could not agree more. :clap: Pot, kettle.

3 and outs made our defense look bad?
 

They do something in New Orleans. Playing defense isn\'t one of \'em!! LMAO!

The Last Word: Our defense deserved every bit of their 32nd ranking. I couldn\'t think of a defense that deserved the ranking anymore than our D!!

Feel free to use that in your sig. Gator.. :P