3 and outs made our defense look bad?

GumboBC · 02-22-2005, 12:20 PM

So much has been made on this board about how our offense made the defense look so much worse than what it actually was.

It amazes me that ... well, let's just say I'm amazed! ;)

Anyone been watching the Saints very long?

Remember the Bobby Hebert/Carl Smith offense? How many 3 and outs did they have?

How did the defense look then?

Danno · 02-22-2005, 12:35 PM

I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad.

Saint_LB · 02-22-2005, 12:38 PM

I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad.

How many of those were there?

Saint_LB · 02-22-2005, 12:43 PM

quote:
-

I am only questioning whether the reason was a talent issue, or more an issue of fatigue and attitude. I certainly don\'t pretend to know which is the case, I just find it strange that the same personnel can look like two different teams from the first 12 games to the last 4.

How quickly we forget just how ineffective Deuce was the first part of the season.

Deuce game by game:

Seattle L- 16 for 57yds -
San Francisco W 3 for-1yd - Deuce got injured.
@Arizona L - Did Not Play
Tampa Bay L -21 for 102- fumbled twice and one was run back or a TD.
Minnesota 18 for 78yds
Oakland W 24 for 42 - Averaged 1.8 yards on 24 carries
San Diego L 17 for 43yds.
Denver L 13 for 42yds.
Carolina 7 for 22
Dallas W 30 for 83yds - Averaged 2.8 yards on 30 carries.
Tampa Bay W 25 for 89yds - Averaged 3.5 yards on 25 carries.

After that game Deuce got healthy and we went 4-1 during that stretch. The only loss during the last 5 games was to the Falcons. Brooks and the offense drove the length of the field for a TD leaving Vick under 2 minutes and they scored a TD at the end of the game to win.

So, by your own admission, it wasn\'t until the offense stepped up their game that the defense became better, unless I am reading this wrong.

What about this, Gumbo?

Danno · 02-22-2005, 12:44 PM

I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad.

How many of those were there?

From what I saw, it appeared to be as many as our opponents wanted.

Saint_LB · 02-22-2005, 12:47 PM

I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad.

How many of those were there?

From what I saw, it appeared to be as many as our opponents wanted.

Is this an assumption to make your side of the argument look better, or is it based on fact. I am not saying you are wrong, I would just like to see the actual facts, not, \"it appears\", or \"I assume.\"

Danno · 02-22-2005, 12:54 PM

Is this an assumption to make your side of the argument look better, or is it based on fact. I am not saying you are wrong, I would just like to see the actual facts, not, \"it appears\", or \"I assume.\"

No, its what I observed. I don\'t really have a side in this arguement. Take it for what it is, my observation.

The 3-and-outs made our OFFENSE look bad.
Our defense finished dead last.
Looks like two unrelated problems to me , in my opinion.

JKool · 02-22-2005, 01:00 PM

Here is an attempt at an argument, I\'m not sold yet, so let me know what ya\'ll think:

Our opponents had the ball almost two minutes longer than we did per game. During those two minutes per game our oppents got 52 more first downs than we did (that is 3.25 per game). That sounds a little high for two minutes; however, if the offense keeps the ball longer, perhaps it is only one extra first down.

More importantly though, in those two minutes opponents offenses out passed us by 300 yards (18.75 per game) and out rushed us by nearly 650 yards (40.6 yards), for a grand total of about 60 yards a game. Unless you\'re in a two minute drill (which in 8 games at least our opponents would not have been) 60 yards in two minutes is A LOT.

Thus, ignoring whether or not the score matters to what style of offense you\'re going to play AND that time of possession does not only belong to our offense (since it requires the defense to get the ball back), our defense allowed 3.25 first downs and 60 extra yards in a mere two minute difference. Notice also that unanalyzed this points to them giving up a lot of big plays (which is certainly not the offense\'s fault).

Sure the offense may have hung our defense out to dry occasionally, but when our defense was on the field (and it wasn\'t that much more than our opponents) they gave it up like a two bit whore...

dberce1 · 02-22-2005, 01:32 PM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
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I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad.
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How many of those were there?
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I\'d say the 1 or 2play, 80 yard drives made them look worse.

JKool · 02-22-2005, 01:56 PM

Alright, so I went back and counted the number of three and outs we had in the first quarters this year.

We had 19 three and outs, that is 1.2 three and outs per game in the first quarter. I have no idea if that is a lot, but that sounds reasonable to me at the start of the game. Our opponents had 14 three and outs, that is .9 per game. It seems to me relatively safe to say that 1 three and out in the first quarter is normal - so the Saints were slightly bad and our oppnents were slightly good on this criterion.

Of those 19 three and outs, at least 8 of them occurred in games we won.

You guys can take this information any way you\'d like, but to me it indicates that (1) we weren\'t that bad in terms of three and outs overall, and (2) three and outs in the first quarter are at best slightly correlated with wins and losses.

02-22-2005, 12:20 PM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	3 and outs made our defense look bad? So much has been made on this board about how our offense made the defense look so much worse than what it actually was. It amazes me that ... well, let's just say I'm amazed! ;) Anyone been watching the Saints very long? Remember the Bobby Hebert/Carl Smith offense? How many 3 and outs did they have? How did the defense look then?
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-22-2005, 12:35 PM	#2
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	3 and outs made our defense look bad? I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad.

02-22-2005, 12:38 PM	#3
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	3 and outs made our defense look bad? I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad. How many of those were there?
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894

02-22-2005, 12:43 PM	#4
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	3 and outs made our defense look bad? quote: - I am only questioning whether the reason was a talent issue, or more an issue of fatigue and attitude. I certainly don\'t pretend to know which is the case, I just find it strange that the same personnel can look like two different teams from the first 12 games to the last 4. How quickly we forget just how ineffective Deuce was the first part of the season. Deuce game by game: Seattle L- 16 for 57yds - San Francisco W 3 for-1yd - Deuce got injured. @Arizona L - Did Not Play Tampa Bay L -21 for 102- fumbled twice and one was run back or a TD. Minnesota 18 for 78yds Oakland W 24 for 42 - Averaged 1.8 yards on 24 carries San Diego L 17 for 43yds. Denver L 13 for 42yds. Carolina 7 for 22 Dallas W 30 for 83yds - Averaged 2.8 yards on 30 carries. Tampa Bay W 25 for 89yds - Averaged 3.5 yards on 25 carries. After that game Deuce got healthy and we went 4-1 during that stretch. The only loss during the last 5 games was to the Falcons. Brooks and the offense drove the length of the field for a TD leaving Vick under 2 minutes and they scored a TD at the end of the game to win. So, by your own admission, it wasn\'t until the offense stepped up their game that the defense became better, unless I am reading this wrong. What about this, Gumbo?
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894

02-22-2005, 12:44 PM	#5
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	3 and outs made our defense look bad? I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad. How many of those were there? From what I saw, it appeared to be as many as our opponents wanted.

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02-22-2005, 12:47 PM	#6
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	3 and outs made our defense look bad? I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad. How many of those were there? From what I saw, it appeared to be as many as our opponents wanted. Is this an assumption to make your side of the argument look better, or is it based on fact. I am not saying you are wrong, I would just like to see the actual facts, not, \"it appears\", or \"I assume.\"
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894

02-22-2005, 12:54 PM	#7
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Is this an assumption to make your side of the argument look better, or is it based on fact. I am not saying you are wrong, I would just like to see the actual facts, not, \"it appears\", or \"I assume.\" No, its what I observed. I don\'t really have a side in this arguement. Take it for what it is, my observation. The 3-and-outs made our OFFENSE look bad. Our defense finished dead last. Looks like two unrelated problems to me , in my opinion.

02-22-2005, 01:00 PM	#8
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Here is an attempt at an argument, I\'m not sold yet, so let me know what ya\'ll think: Our opponents had the ball almost two minutes longer than we did per game. During those two minutes per game our oppents got 52 more first downs than we did (that is 3.25 per game). That sounds a little high for two minutes; however, if the offense keeps the ball longer, perhaps it is only one extra first down. More importantly though, in those two minutes opponents offenses out passed us by 300 yards (18.75 per game) and out rushed us by nearly 650 yards (40.6 yards), for a grand total of about 60 yards a game. Unless you\'re in a two minute drill (which in 8 games at least our opponents would not have been) 60 yards in two minutes is A LOT. Thus, ignoring whether or not the score matters to what style of offense you\'re going to play AND that time of possession does not only belong to our offense (since it requires the defense to get the ball back), our defense allowed 3.25 first downs and 60 extra yards in a mere two minute difference. Notice also that unanalyzed this points to them giving up a lot of big plays (which is certainly not the offense\'s fault). Sure the offense may have hung our defense out to dry occasionally, but when our defense was on the field (and it wasn\'t that much more than our opponents) they gave it up like a two bit whore...
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

02-22-2005, 01:32 PM	#9
dberce1 Chuck Liddells Right Hand Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Prairieville, Louisiana Posts: 1,227	3 and outs made our defense look bad? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I\'m guessing the numerous 12 play 80 yard drives are what made them look bad. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How many of those were there? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I\'d say the 1 or 2play, 80 yard drives made them look worse.

02-22-2005, 01:56 PM	#10
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	3 and outs made our defense look bad? Alright, so I went back and counted the number of three and outs we had in the first quarters this year. We had 19 three and outs, that is 1.2 three and outs per game in the first quarter. I have no idea if that is a lot, but that sounds reasonable to me at the start of the game. Our opponents had 14 three and outs, that is .9 per game. It seems to me relatively safe to say that 1 three and out in the first quarter is normal - so the Saints were slightly bad and our oppnents were slightly good on this criterion. Of those 19 three and outs, at least 8 of them occurred in games we won. You guys can take this information any way you\'d like, but to me it indicates that (1) we weren\'t that bad in terms of three and outs overall, and (2) three and outs in the first quarter are at best slightly correlated with wins and losses.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks