Why trade Horn?
 

I don't understand why there are so many proponents for trading Joe Horn. Yeah, the guy's a jackass, but I tell you what, he hasn't degraded his teammates, he doesn't show up to camp out of shape, and he flat plays on Sundays. I know he's getting a little up there in age, but I'm telling you, if we get rid of the most consistent performer we've had in the last 5 years, it will just be another move that will bolster the reasons for the top free agents in the NFL not to come here. They guy has been lights out 4 of the past 5 years. I really think he's the kind of guy that's going to play hard wherever he is. I'd rather him do it here for another 3 years than somewhere else.

Why trade Horn?
 

I\'m not sure what you\'ve been reading, but I\'ve seen maybe 2 people that think trading horn is a good idea.
This would be the complete opposite of what our team needs.
If we trade Horn the Management is saying to all of us that they do not care about winning.
This would be a major step backward for our team.



:( It would not at all suprise me if the saints trade him. :(

Why trade Horn?
 

Um, the Vikes talked about trading Randy Moss. The 49ers allowed TO to go to the Eagles. This is football, not I don\'t wanna see my favorite player go. Joe is getting older, which is the ONLY reason I cam see for trading him. If he had a contract for another two years, I would be all for keeping him another year. But this is the last year. That\'s why I suggested getting Coles, who is a pro bowl receiver himself, and 7 years younger than Joe. We are NOT in a position to make a Superbowl run next year, why strap ourselves with a long contract for Joe for the next 4 years, when he will be almost 40. What if he doesn\'t wanna retire at that point and we have to trade him and take a cap hit?

Why trade Horn?
 

i\'m not for moving joe especially. if it translates to younger and/or cheaper with as much production tho it should be considered. learn the realities of the cap. do you know the titans are still obligated to 4mil cap to eddie george for this coming season? dallas and sf were the first power teams decimated in the process of cap education. the redskins are still hurting by overpaying for star but declining veterans. it\'s all about bang for the buck. thus a lawyer milloy or ty law, among the elite at thier positions, are shown the door if they cost more than they can produce. that is why shrewd front office people like scott pioli (ne vp)are having incredible offers made to them.

as far as the team in general, when you have a stretch of 7-9, 9-7, 8-8, and 8-8 with no playoffs and is labeled the most underachieving team from pundits across the country, then i do think overhaul can be appropriate. remember brady was a cinderella story to start with. the veteran leader bledsoe was moved as soon as a younger, cheaper, and still only rookie looked like he could do the job. bettis had to take major paycut to stay in pitt. john lynch and warren sapp, two loved and vital cogs to a world championship team, had to go for cap management.

i\'d love to see joe here if things turn brighter and the team contends. but just as much as the team taking care of him, he will have to take care of the team in salary structure ala rod smith in denver.

Why trade Horn?
 

I would hate to get rid of Horn, still productive, still a leader... Coles is a stud. I am all for getting Coles but not to sure I like getting him over Coles. Horn, Stallworth, Coles???

Why trade Horn?
 

This just in from the Skills Competion ...Horn just crossed the finish line in the 40-yd. dash competition. :facesjump: :clap:

Why trade Horn?
 

Good one LB!! Rumor has it Joe stopped in his dash to make a phone call to his agent.

We don\'t want to lose Horn but business is business, especially when it comes to volatile, show-boating wide receivers who think they are worth more than they are.

SPEED MATTERS!

Why trade Horn?
 

The reason I want to keep Joe is we need to accept our tradition. Not we would like our tradition to be but what it has evolved to become. The tradition of the New Orleans Saints is that the organization is a loser. Plain and simple. We can try to church it up all we want, but there it is. At some point this team has to start DEMANDING excellence from everyone in the organization. The way I see it, Joe Horn, though he is a loudmouth, has been excellent since he\'s gotten here. He makes the tough catches, plays injured, you don\'t hear of any off field problems with him. The only problem with him is that he\'s a big mouth. At some point this organization has to reward excellence and rid itself of subpar performers.

We can\'t be compared with New England because they have a couple of things we don\'t. First off, players want to go their because they know there\'s a good chance of getting a ring before they retire if they go there. Second, Belichick is now widely considered to be among the best coaches in the history of the league now. That demands respect. And the demand for excellence throughout that entire organization has gotten the point that it is almost self-sustaining. We don\'t have any of these things.

Now, I believe that getting rid of Joe shows that we don\'t reward excellence. I mean, cmon, friggin Sullivan\'s still on the roster eatin up money AND the snack bar. Stinchcombe hasn\'t done anything either. Joe Horn has played whenever this team needs him. In short, he\'s been excellent. When does this team start rewarding THAT?

Why trade Horn?
 

I agree with this, totally. I may joke about his speed, or lack of, but that\'s all it is...a joke. Horn leaves everything on the field every time, and is probably the best receiver this organizaation has ever had. Sorry Danny A...but Horn brings just a little bit more to the table. I may not be too crazy about his antics or comments...especially the one about the fans and moving the team if we don\'t get in line, but it is a lot easier to take when the guy goes out there and gives it all up no matter what.

Why trade Horn?
 

Geez.
Does anyone see anything wrong with a little show-boating??? I don\'t. So what a player adds a little excitement to a game... big freakin\' deal! As long as you are into the game and produce for the team, let me add as well a team player.
As long as its not in the face of a player and outright flaunting in the face or near proximity of an opponet, then is all good.

Why trade Horn?
 

I don\'t think I\'ve heard ONE person say that we needed to get rid of Joe Horn.

Also, you don\'t build a winning organization because you want to hold onto players to try and build some kind of \"tradition\".

The bottom line is: Does a player help your team win? Can he get it done? The only other thing that would factor into the decision is the \"salary\".

If Joe wants to be paid like the best receiver in the NFL, then he\'s not worth that, IMO. I really think Joe is just jockeying for leverage in future negociations. We\'ll see...

Why trade Horn?
 

I agree Euph. I don\'t care about his antics on the field or any other players for that matter. I care about one number, 34. His age. That\'s it. That\'s why I mentioned Coles. He is faster than Joe, younger, but is basically the same receiver. HE makes tough catches, goes over the middle, and gives possessions to a terrible Redskins offense. He is a stud. If we could get Mike Williams in the draft if Joe was traded, I would be estatic at that possibility too. I love Joe. Love him. But when you keep aging players too long, sign them to new contracts and then have to cut them cause their production drops or they won\'t retire, you end up like the 49ers and now the Titans. We don\'t need that. We need to adddress this while Joe has value. We trade Joe to a team say like the Ravens and get a defensive player from them. Or we trade him for a decent pick. We get Coles, Mason, or Williams in the draft to replace him. If we get Coles or Mason, we still have an extra pick and a pro bowl receiver. If we get Williams, we still will have out other pick to use on defense. I don\'t see how it will hurt us that much.

Why trade Horn?
 

I don\'t see a problem with a little show boating. I am a little old school and remember the days when a player did his job, went back to the huddle and celebrated by doing it again!

You have to admit that the whole cell phone thing was a little bit silly and a whole lot embarassing, and that was what I was alluding to earlier.

Horn is an outstanding receiver and I do enjoy most of his antics.

Why trade Horn?
 

TRADING HORN IS NOT AN OPTION :exclam:
If we trade the only consitant, reliable, and productive player on our team, what are we saying to potential free agents?
That if you do a good job and make the pro bowl for 4 out of 5 years you suddenly become over the hill.
I mean come on. 4 out of 5 years.
Jerry Rice didn\'t slow down until 39 or so and he is still going today.
While I never could or will compare Horn to Rice, this shows that some players can remain effective even when they get older.
Come on, 4 out of 5 is amazing.
Plus their is the issue of potentail free agents.
The NFL is a buisiness.
That means when players decide where they want to work they not only look at the money, but the prestige, manager relationship, and long term possibility.
Many of these players have families which do not want to move from year to year.
If we get rid of Horn now, we are releasing our most prestigous player who has always been a leader.
We are telling potential Saints that they do not have a future in the organization no matter how affective they are.
We are telling everyone that we do not care about winning

Why trade Horn?
 

Trading Horn would be crazy, I don\'t see that to happen.
Horn is the best we have right now, Brooks likes him and gets the ball to him as often as he can, Horn is the real deal, he\'s a complete package, I wouldn\'t trade him for Randy Moss in a straight up deal, call me crazy but that\'s how much I like Horn, he\'s a team player, his mouth gets him in trouble at times but I can live with that.

Why trade Horn?
 

Okay, so when we are cutting Charles Grant and Will Smith and LeCharles because we play sentiments for Joe over good football business, are you then gonna say we shoulda traded Joe when we coulda got something for him? I mean take the sentiment out of it and look at it from a FOOTBALL standpoint. Does it make more sense to sign a 34 year old Joe Horn to a 3 or 4 year contract or get a Coles who is 27 or a Mike Williams who can be a star for 7 more years or longer?

Why trade Horn?
 

What, no love for Brett Perriman? Shame, shame, shame...

I\'m a Joe Horn fan. Lord knows we\'d be even worse than 8-8 every year if he weren\'t around. But he ain\'t gonna be around forever ... or much longer for that matter.

Then again, alot of folks were saying he was getting too old before last season. He responded by posting one of the best seasons of his career and topping it off with a visit to Hawaii. This \"getting old\" talk is sounding familiar.

Nevertheless, his increasing cap number cannot be ignored. Nor can his increasing age. It\'s a tightrope: there\'s always the chance Horn will continue to produce at a high level, and it\'s always nice to see an organization remain faithful to it\'s own. But there is no honor amongst thieves, and you can bet the farm Horn will be shown the door when his production fails to warrant his paycheck.

The only player who remains immune to that is ... well ... :P

Why trade Horn?
 

whoodi, what makes you think a team will give up an early first for horn.
It\'s as you said, whould you rather a 34 year old horn or a 20 year old mike williams.
Don\'t you think that every other tam has the same mind set.

Why trade Horn?
 

Never said anyone would give an early first for Horn. Mike Williams could fall, Edwards could fall. I would like us to get Coles, but I was just saying I wouldn\'t be disappointed if we got Williams. This is what I said:

I never said we WOULD get an early pick for Joe.

Why trade Horn?
 

posted on 23/2/2005 at 11:11
To me, having \"this other pick\" implies two first round picks. In that post you were talking about what we could get for horn.
If I misunderstood, I apologize.
I thought you were implying we get an extra 1st for horn.
my bad.

Why trade Horn?
 

Thought I\'d examine the \"age\" issue a little further just to see what I could come up with. Here\'s some stats from a few recent oldies, starting when they reached age 32:

Jerry Rice - Aged 32 in 1994. 841 rec, 11119 yds & 65 TD\'s from 1994 - 2004. That\'s an average of 76 rec, 1010 yds & 6 TD\'s. This also includes the 1997 season where he appeared in only 2 games. Will be 43 years old this year.

Tim Brown - Aged 32 in 1998. 495 rec, 6346 yds & 40 TD\'s from 1998 - 2004. That\'s an average of 71 rec, 907 yds & 6 TD\'s. Will be 39 this year.

Jimmy Smith - Aged 32 in 2001. 320 rec, 4377 yds & 25 TD\'s from 2001 - 2004. That\'s an average of 80 rec, 1094 yds & 6 TD\'s. Two of those seasons have been Byron Leftwich\'s training period. Just turned 36.

Isaac Bruce - was 34 this season. Posted 89 rec, 1292 yds & 6 TD\'s as the #2 WR in the St. Louis offense.

I\'m not trying to push an agenda. In fact, I never expected the stats to be this encouraging. Heck, Jerry Rice didn\'t even get started until about age 30! Obviously, Horn is no Jerry Rice, but there seems to be more hope than I previously thought...

Why trade Horn?
 

tho the posts aren\'t directly related i think i sense more unity from billy and whodi on this topic that i can recall elsewhere. namely, this is business. bang for the buck cap management is as vital to the patriots success as the players performance. i think everyone here recognizes the good qualities and game joe brings every week. as pointed out tho, he won\'t be increasing in productivity at this point of his career. jerry rice was probably the best receiver ever. but look up his numbers. after an injury in \'97 at age 35 there was a very noticeable drop off. even more significant is that he was one of the components that drove the niners to salary cap hell. there is a window of opportunity to push a team for a few years. then the salary cap starts to close it\'s teeth whether you have been successful or not. don\'t quote me but i believe the titans have over 30million of cap money obligated this year to players no longer with the team. what happens then? you cut an all pro cb, a top kicker, a starting tackle, the league\'s leading receiver, and more for zero- absolutely nothing. derrick mason (1000+ yds 4 yrs straight) was only obligated 4.7million and they couldnt keep him. excuse me if i rant too much... i could go for a lush extension for joe if we had come off a couple of superbowl appearances but you know the story here. think new england will keep ty law, one of the best cornerbacks in recent years, for the 14mil current cap number for \'05? about as much as they did lawyer milloy. i think this topic is folly somewhat because i cannot imagine this front office having the imagination or umph to do anything so drastic (32-32 for 4 yrs or not). still theoretically, i do believe a team needs to be willing and able to do whatever it takes to bring success. the same formula and result the past four years is a much more compelling statement than 4 games at the end of last season. keep joe with a favorable extension (see rod smith denver) or franchise him next year if no go. i\'d like to see him be a part of the second playoff win in 38 years. in any case, the jaws of the salary cap will start to close on this franchise soon. i am for ANY move for ANY player though that will result in seeing this beleaguered franchise experiencing winning at levels never before attained.

[Edited on 24/2/2005 by LKelley67]

Why trade Horn?
 

Nobody really wants to trade Horn -- but few want to pay him the kind of money Owens, Moss and Harrisson is getting. I guess the argument is that Horn only is going to be a top receiver for another year or 2 and maybe we can get something really good for him.

Why trade Horn?
 

People said the same thing two years ago. 172 rec, 2,372 yards, and 21 TDs later, despite injuries, no real second threat to take pressure off of him at WR, an up and down running game, inconsistent QB, and defense that keeps him off the field and makes the O play catchup, and people are still saying the same thing. I wonder - if he goes to the Pro Bowl in 2005 and 2006, will people be saying in 2006 that he\'s done?

So long as the guy is producing like a top 5 WR (which he is), I don\'t see why paying him like a top 10 or 15 WR is a bad thing. Once he stops producing, then worry about cutting, restructuring, or trading him.

Why trade Horn?
 

I agree with that.

Joe isn\'t a possession receiver. He also isn\'t the type of receiver, like Stallworth, who has a chance take it to the house every time he catches the football.

Personally, I like a number 1 receiver that is more of a threat after he catches the ball. Given the amount of catches Joe makes, if he had that ability he would truly be an elite receiver.

But, I\'m happy with Joe being our #1 guy. He\'s good enough.

Joe\'s biggest asset is that he knows how to get open and he\'s pretty consistent at catching the football.



[Edited on 24/2/2005 by GumboBC]

Why trade Horn?
 

No, you are right Tay Tay. It did imply having 2 first round picks, but you said emphasis on the word EARLY, which I never said. If we get a late first, I would be thrilled. We would have two firsts, and possib;y two seconds depending on how a Howard trade went. Or maybe we could do Howard and the late first to move up and get Williams if we didn\'t get Coles or Mason. I hope that os clear.

Kelley, I am right with you. As I said before, I love Joe, but Joe ain\'t Jerry Rice. I am glad he made the pro bowl. And that he has done it consistently. But his age is killing me. We could give Joe a decent contract now but what if he then falls off? We are stuck. Look at Warren Sapp. Age struck him in a blink. Same for Tim Brown. One year you are good the next the fans are wondering what happened? Add to it the fact the deal will be for 3-4 years, Joe will be 37 or 38 and we won\'t be able to unload the contract. Then we fall into either having to let him play it out or cutting him, which basically equals dead money. If a younger receiver can come in and do what Joe did, what\'s the big deal? Coles could do it, I have no doubt. And Coles has the speed Joe doesn\'t. Mike Williams could be an upgrade, he is a stud. But like Kelley said, I am not one to want the team to have to sit here in two years and cut stars like Tenn and the 49ers cause we wanted to hold on to aging players too long. I don\'t know how you can be for the team winning if you want us to put ourselves in that situation.

[Edited on 24/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

Why trade Horn?
 

If we wait a couple of years, his trade value won\'t be at it\'s peak. It\'s better than not resigning him after the year and letting him walk without compensation. Horn for another 1st rounder this year would be lovely because the draft is so deep. But with the amount of quality receivers in free agency, tradeing Horn would be extremely difficult. So I guess we\'ll just have to take it a year at a time. Besides at 4.7 million this year, Horn is a bargain.

I\'m all in favor of trying to get Mike Williams in the draft. This guy is a beast. If we chose to select offense first instead of defense for this guy, I\'d have no problem with it.

Why trade Horn?
 

joe for coles straigh across! he is definitely a gibbs kinda guy if he can see past joe\'s horn. we negotiate that bonus problem, cure a wahington ill, and get 7 years younger.

Why trade Horn?
 

That for me would be ideal Kelley. Coles is a younger, faster Joe Horn. Win/win, well for us. lol