2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

While I haven't finished my analysis, and I hope you considerate posters will help pose pressing questions that will get to more truth, I've discovered the following:

I'm going to focus on LOSSES only, because I'm going to assume that it was a joint effort in wins (on average) and that to get better, one must focus on where things went totally wrong.

In 8 losses,

1st drives had 2TD's, 2 FG's and 1TO
2nd drives had 4TD's, 1FG and 2TO's
Drives 1-5 had 11TD's, 8FG's and 8TO's
Drives 6-10 had 13TD's, 8FG's and 2TO's

Short Field Scoring
6 TD's (3 in 1st 5 drives)
5 FG's (2 in 1st 5 drives)

Offense gave up 2 TD's in 1st 5 drives

When down by 13 or more:
7 TD's
6FG
986yds Total Allowed (30% of all yards Allowed)

What I think this means:
When the game is close, the defense is pretty good. In losses that weren't blowouts, the defense showed up. In losses where the offense doesn't show up, the defense looks even worse.

I'm going to argue that points and yardage given up in the 2nd half when down by 13 or more points are irrelevant for evaluation purposes. There were four games AZ, DEN, SD, and CAR where the slow start and inefficiencies of the offense make this a reasonable assertion. In all four of those games, the offense gave up a score and/or a short field touchdown plus a field goal. That's an average of 16ppg that the offense caused in those 4 games. (not to mention the 4 red zone turnovers in those games)

Against MIN, 3 first half turnovers and 1 short field TD, and still down 7 means that the D was looking pretty good in that one, yardage aside.

So, in 5 losses, the Offense played for the other team, at least statistically, for half the time. Does that qualify to assess the offense 40% of the defensive blame?

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

What I think this means:
When the game is close, the defense is pretty good. In losses that weren\'t blowouts, the defense showed up. In losses where the offense doesn\'t show up, the defense looks even worse.



\'\'When the game is close\'\'...that pretty much equals the 1st quarter...

The D was HORRIBLE.....maybe one of the worst ever in the history of the NFL....I could care less about the final four games...It\'s like walking 3/4 of a mile in a race..then sprinitng the final lap..and expecting praise...

Venturi delivers the worst in players..and he always right on time...just enough to end our season..without any real threat of making the play offs...

Not to entirely blame the D...but..most of the blame for certain has to go to them...they were an embarrasment to the Franchise....

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

By the way..thats a great job of getting those numbers together...I didn\'t mean to come off harsh...

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Here\'s a typical 1st half for the Saints\' offense. This was in a game against the Falcons.


Saints offesne first drive:
1-10-NO20 (13:26) D.McAllister up the middle to NO 24 for 4 yards (E.Jasper).

2-6-NO24 (13:01) D.McAllister up the middle to NO 26 for 2 yards (C.Draft; E.Jasper).

3-4-NO26 (12:15) PENALTY on NO-J.Horn, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NO 26 - No Play.

3-9-NO21 (12:11) (Shotgun) A.Brooks sacked at NO 13 for -8 yards (sack split by D.Williams and E.Jasper).

4-17-NO13 (11:20) M.Berger punts 41 yards to ATL 46, Center-K.Houser. A.Rossum to NO 7 for 47 yards (T.Gardner).
PENALTY on ATL-S.Shabazz, Illegal Block Above the Waist, 10 yards, enforced at NO 47

Saints 2nd drive:
1-10-NO20 (7:36) D.McAllister right end to NO 24 for 4 yards (C.Lavalais).

2-6-NO24 (6:55) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to NO 33 for 9 yards (T.Hall).

1-10-NO33 (6:26) A.Brooks pass to B.Williams to NO 47 for 14 yards (B.Scott).

1-10-NO47 (5:48) PENALTY on NO-V.Riley, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NO 47 - No Play.

1-15-NO42 (5:22) A.Brooks pass incomplete to J.Pathon (D.Hall).

2-15-NO42 (5:17) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to 50 for 8 yards (D.Williams; K.Mathis).

3-7-50 (4:33) (Shotgun)
PENALTY on NO-M.Holland, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at 50 - No Play.

3-12-NO45 (4:17) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to ATL 47 for 8 yards (D.Hall).

4-4-ATL47 (3:44) M.Berger punts 38 yards to ATL 9, Center-K.Houser, fair catch by A.Rossum.
Atlanta Falcons at 03:35

Anyone starting to get the pitcure? Penalties are KILLING us.

Now here\'s our next drive when we have no penalties:

1-10-NO24 (12:21) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to NO 31 for 7 yards (C.Draft).

2-3-NO31 (11:47) D.McAllister right tackle to NO 32 for 1 yard (K.Brooking).

3-2-NO32 (11:10) D.Stallworth left end pushed ob at ATL 42 for 26 yards (B.Scott).

1-10-ATL42 (10:36) D.McAllister right end pushed ob at ATL 29 for 13 yards (B.Smith).

1-10-ATL29 (10:12) D.McAllister up the middle to ATL 30 for -1 yards (R.Coleman).

2-11-ATL30 (9:36) A.Brooks pass incomplete to A.Stecker (T.Hall).

3-11-ATL30 (9:32) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass incomplete to J.Horn.

4-11-ATL30 (9:26) J .Carney 48 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-K.Houser, Holder-T.Bouman.

Here\'s the next possession after scoring the FG:

1-10-NO39 (8:17) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to ATL 35 for 26 yards (D.Hall).

1-10-ATL35 (7:40) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn ran ob at ATL 23 for 12 yards.

1-10-ATL23 (7:16) A.Brooks pass incomplete to E.Conwell (K.Brooking).

2-10-ATL23 (7:11) D.McAllister up the middle to ATL 20 for 3 yards (R.Coleman; E.Jasper).

3-7-ATL20 (6:30) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass incomplete to D.Stallworth (B.Smith).

4-7-ATL20 (6:26) J.Carney 38 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-K.Houser, Holder-T.Bouman.

What do you know, we score again when we have NO penalties!!

Here\'s the last possession of the 1st half:

1-10-NO27 (:38) (Shotgun)
PENALTY on NO-J.Nesbit, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at NO 27 - No Play.

1-15-NO22 (:38) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass intended for B.Williams INTERCEPTED by A.Rossum at NO 40. A.Rossum to NO 26 for 14 yards (D.Stallworth).

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Wow. That muct have taken some reasearch. Nice work. Unfortunately you are gonna run up against the \"the stats say we were 32nd\" crownd and probably the \"I don\'t care what evidence you have, this is what I saw\" crowd. But I agree with you, and I know more than just myself does as well. The offense did a horrible job of helping the D, and in fact let them down on more than one occasion, as you have also pointed out. The defense did it\'s loyal best by being 10th in the league in takeaways, but it seems not to matter much cause the yardage ranking shows them at 32. Keep up the good work xan. I think 40% is a nice figure, not too harmful in assigning blame to wards the defense\'s failure.

To shadow, I can post AGAIN what our defense did in the 1st quarter while our offense wasn\'t scoring. They gave up about 7.3 points per game in the first. Would you like me to do that? It\'s no problem. Don\'t forget our offense wasn\'t scoring and was also going 3 and out and punting A LOT.

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

And giving up over 7 points on average in the 1st quarter gives them bragging rights?....

Is that what your telling me?

Here\'s some numbers for you..not some situational stats either..just plain and simple facts...

New Orleans Saints Defensive Statistics

Total Yards - 6141.......dead last in the nfl

Yards per game - 383.8......dead last in the nfl

Rushing yards - 2253.....30th overall in the nfl...

Rushing yards per game - 140.8...30th overall in the nfl

Passing yards - 3888 - 28th overall in the nfl

Passing yards per game - 243 - 28th overall in the nfl

Points against - 405 - 28th overall in the nfl

Points per game - 25.3...28th in the nfl

you can\'t sugar coat those kind of results...without a doubt..even including the much acclaimed 4 game streak..they were one of the worst to ever play...had the final 4 went like the first 12..we would have been seated in the hall of shame once again...

The only reason we even won 8 is due to our Offense

[Edited on 25/2/2005 by shadowdrinker]

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Can\'t really blame either offense or defense as the reason for a disappointing season - it is a team game!. We have seen teams win 13 games with the second worse defense in the league and we have seen teams win Super Bowls with one of the worst rated offenses in the league.

No question that the offense underachieved and forced the defense onto the field way too often. But the fact remains that the defense was really inept at stopping anything for the first 2/3 of the season. Blame should be equally shared but less excusable to an offense that should have been one of the top in the league. The defense was just about where most prognasticators said they would be.

[Edited on 25/2/2005 by 4DSaints]

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Verses Seattle:

New Orleans Saints

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 12:41 11:42 0:59 Punt NO 19 3 3 0 3 0 NO 22 Punt
2 11:09 8:05 3:04 Interception NO 29 5 8 0 8 1 NO 37 Punt
3 6:37 4:10 2:27 Fumble NO 32 6 40 0 40 1 SEA 35 Fumble
4 14:52 12:10 2:42 Kickoff NO 27 4 27 -5 22 1 NO 49 Punt
5 9:18 8:16 1:02 Punt NO 16 3 1 -12 -11 0 NO 5 Punt
6 6:38 2:54 3:44 Kickoff SEA 47 8 52 -5 47 3 *SEA 6 Touchdown
7 0:17 0:00 0:17 Punt NO 16 1 8 0 8 0 NO 16 End of Half
8 15:00 12:59 2:01 Kickoff SEA 47 3 22 -10 12 0 SEA 38 Fumble
9 11:53 9:05 2:48 Punt NO 20 5 35 0 35 2 SEA 45 Punt
10 4:45 3:40 1:05 Punt NO 16 3 3 -5 -2 0 NO 14 Interception
11 3:06 0:27 2:39 Kickoff NO 24 6 32 0 32 2 SEA 44 Punt
12 12:14 9:27 2:47 Punt NO 24 8 57 0 57 2 *SEA 19 Downs 13 4:41 3:53 0:48 Punt NO 24 3 -7 0 -7 0 NO 17 Punt

Verses SF

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 13:57 10:18 3:39 Punt NO 39 7 36 -5 31 2 SF 24 Fumble
2 8:04 6:55 1:09 Kickoff NO 41 3 59 0 59 2 *SF 8 Touchdown
3 5:11 2:48 2:23 Punt NO 26 5 20 40 60 2 *SF 14 Field Goal
4 1:11 14:46 1:25 Punt NO 35 3 9 0 9 0 NO 44 Punt 5 11:46 9:42 2:04 Kickoff NO 37 5 63 0 63 2 SF 37 Touchdown
6 7:36 3:35 4:01 Punt SF 47 9 29 0 29 2 *SF 18 Field Goal
7 0:28 0:00 0:28 Kickoff NO 32 3 4 0 4 0 NO 37 End of Half
8 15:00 11:18 3:42 Kickoff SF 46 7 31 -5 26 1 SF 20 Field Goal
9 6:27 3:10 3:17 Kickoff NO 24 6 2 30 32 2 SF 44 Punt
10 1:09 14:46 1:23 Fumble SF 41 3 -8 0 -8 0 SF 49 Punt 11 7:07 5:14 1:53 Kickoff NO 18 3 -8 -5 -13 0 NO 5 Punt
12 3:42 1:01 2:41 Fumble NO 41 9 59 0 59 4 *SF 16 Touchdown
13 0:04 0:00 0:04 Interception SF 47 1 -1 0 -1 0 SF 47 End of Game

Surprise. We SCORE on the worst tea in the league, and we win.

Against Rams

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 15:00 10:55 4:05 Kickoff NO 26 7 40 0 40 2 SL 34 Downs
2 7:58 5:23 2:35 Kickoff NO 35 6 29 0 29 1 SL 36 Downs
3 3:51 14:50 4:01 Fumble NO 17 10 44 5 49 4 SL 34 Field Goal
4 11:08 7:46 3:22 Kickoff NO 20 7 80 0 80 3 SL 42 Touchdown
5 3:38 1:01 2:37 Punt NO 48 6 12 5 17 1 SL 35 Field Goal
6 11:21 5:16 6:05 Punt NO 27 13 51 0 51 3 SL 22 Field Goal
7 13:34 8:23 5:11 Kickoff NO 15 11 80 5 85 5 *SL 9 Touchdown
8 6:38 5:42 0:56 Punt NO 31 3 4 0 4 0 NO 35 Punt
9 3:12 1:48 1:24 Punt NO 42 6 30 -5 25 2 SL 33 Missed FG
10 0:28 0:03 0:25 Kickoff NO 42 4 38 0 38 2 SL 20 Field Goal
11 10:42 7:56 2:46 Punt NO 33 7 54 0 54 4 *SL 13 Field Goal

Look at that. We SCORE again and we win. Here comes the losses.

Verses ARI
# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 15:00 8:52 6:08 Kickoff NO 20 11 79 0 79 4 *ARZ 1 Fumble
2 6:49 5:38 1:11 Punt NO 20 3 -1 -5 -6 0 NO 14 Punt
3 4:26 4:16 0:10 Punt NO 49 1 -14 0 -14 0 NO 49 Fumble
4 4:16 14:56 4:20 Kickoff NO 39 8 54 5 59 4 *ARZ 2 Field Goal
5 13:06 11:10 1:56 Punt NO 31 3 8 -5 3 0 NO 34 Punt
6 6:02 3:48 2:14 Fumble NO 1 4 20 0 20 1 NO 21 Punt
7 1:12 0:19 0:53 Kickoff NO 15 4 24 -10 14 1 NO 29 Punt 8 9:54 7:07 2:47 Punt NO 20 5 20 0 20 1 NO 40 Punt 9 1:29 14:54 1:35 Kickoff NO 12 3 13 -10 3 0 NO 15 Punt
10 9:44 8:12 1:32 Kickoff NO 8 3 12 -4 8 0 NO 16 Punt
11 5:02 3:52 1:10 Kickoff NO 20 5 22 -5 17 1 NO 37 Downs 12 1:54 0:00 1:54 Kickoff NO 22 6 28 5 33 2 NO 45 End of Game

You mean a red zone TO and not scoring on 10 of 11 possessions is BAD for the defense? Imagine that. Let\'s move on.

Verses TB:

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 15:00 12:45 2:15 Kickoff NO 27 5 13 0 13 1 NO 40 Punt
2 7:05 5:08 1:57 Kickoff NO 27 3 13 -10 3 0 NO 30 Punt
3 0:43 12:02 3:41 Fumble NO 43 6 8 5 13 1 TB 44 Punt
4 8:42 7:18 1:24 Punt TB 40 3 40 0 40 2 *TB 17 Touchdown
5 5:08 4:50 0:18 Kickoff NO 23 1 -1 0 -1 0 NO 23 Fumble
6 4:50 1:01 3:49 Kickoff NO 28 8 33 -20 13 2 NO 41 Punt 7 11:56 10:50 1:06 Kickoff NO 20 3 1 0 1 0 NO 21 Punt
8 7:41 2:46 4:55 Missed FG NO 31 10 71 -2 69 6 *TB 3 Touchdown 9 0:33 11:29 4:04 Punt NO 30 6 37 -10 27 2 TB 43 Interception 10 8:01 3:43 4:18 Punt NO 31 8 40 0 40 2 TB 29 Field Goal

So you mean even when the defense gives you the ball off a fumble and you STILL punt, that is BAD for the D? Wow. You score a TD then fumble the next possession and punt the next two after that? Seems like a winning offense. One more.

Verses Min

# Time
Recd Time
Lost Time
Poss How Ball
Obtained Drive
Began #
Play Yds
Gain Yds
Pen Net
Yds 1st
Down Last
Scrm How
Given Up
1 12:36 11:35 1:01 Interception NO 20 3 7 0 7 0 NO 27 Punt
2 7:53 0:06 7:47 Kickoff NO 23 13 59 10 69 6 *MIN 8 Interception
3 14:03 11:25 2:38 Kickoff NO 21 6 27 0 27 2 NO 48 Punt
4 7:48 6:29 1:19 Fumble MIN 14 3 14 0 14 2 *MIN 2 Touchdown
5 4:47 4:24 0:23 Interception NO 20 3 0 0 0 0 NO 20 Punt
6 1:53 0:21 1:32 Kickoff NO 27 4 73 0 73 4 *MIN 7 Touchdown 7 15:00 13:27 1:33 Kickoff NO 27 3 -3 0 -3 0 NO 24 Punt
8 10:48 6:13 4:35 Kickoff NO 21 9 79 0 79 3 *MIN 1 Touchdown 9 2:26 13:08 4:18 Kickoff NO 19 10 64 -10 54 3 MIN 27 Field Goal
10 7:04 2:51 4:13 Kickoff NO 35 11 65 0 65 5 *MIN 5 Touchdown

So two punts and an INT that led to a TD is NOT how you help your team? Wow. Imagine that.

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

shadow look at thia

And tell me out side the AFC West games what more the defense could have done to help the offense. Please tell me. Outside of those 3 terrible games(while the offense still wasn\'t scoring in the first), they gave up an average of 5.6 points in the first. And this is with having to stop the opposing team agin and again cause of the drive charts I posted, you can see we WERE NOT scoring in the first and WE WERE giving the ball to the opposing teams with turnovers giving them extra possessions. But you know what? think what you want. I am so through with this disagreement.

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

simply refer to my above post...

If you came in here to defend the Defense...you lost before it ever began

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Hey, cause you are close minded and have formed an opinion that you are unwilling to change, I guess ANYONE will lose against that. Did you read the title of the thread, or did you think you were in the DEFENSE SUCKS thread? Weren\'t you also the one arguing with me that WE WOULD NOT franchise Howard? Okay. Thanks. :P

[Edited on 25/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Y\'all want to know what REALLY happend in the first quarter of the Seattle game?

Saints fist drive:


1-10-NO19 (12:41) D.McAllister right guard to NO 22 for 3 yards (R.Moore, T.Bierria).

2-7-NO22 (12:01) A.Brooks pass incomplete to E.Conwell.

3-7-NO22 (11:58) A.Brooks pass incomplete to J.Pathon.

4-7-NO22 (11:53) M.Berger punts 40 yards to SEA 38, Center-K.Houser. B.Engram to SEA 46 for 8 yards (M.Mitchell).

Saints 2nd drive:

1-10-NO29 (11:09) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to NO 37 for 8 yards (O.Huff). Pass 5, Run 3

2-2-NO37 (10:35) D.McAllister right end to NO 41 for 4 yards (C.Woodard, T.Bierria).

1-10-NO41 (9:56) A.Brooks pass to D.Stallworth to NO 46 for 5 yards (T.Bierria). Pass 5, Run 0

2-5-NO46 (9:21) D.McAllister right tackle to NO 46 for no gain (R.Moore).

3-5-NO46 (8:39) (Shotgun) A.Brook sacked at NO 37 for -9 yards (C.Okeafor, G.Wistrom).

4-14-NO37 (8:13) M.Berger punts 32 yards to SEA 31, Center-K.Houser, fair catch by B.Engram.

Saints 3rd drive:

1-10-SEA32 (6:37) A.Brooks pass incomplete to D.Stallworth.

2-10-NO32 (6:29) (Shotgun) D.McAllister right guard to NO 37 for 5 yards (A.Simmons).

3-5-NO37 (5:45) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass to J.Horn to SEA 34 for 29 yards (C.Woodard). Pass 13, Run 16

1-10-SEA34 (5:03) D.McAllister right end to SEA 35 for - 1 yards (A.Simmons).

2-11-SEA35 (4:25) A.Brooks pass incomplete to D.McAllister (M.Trufant).

3-11-SEA35 (4:19) (Shotgun) A.Brooks pass to B.Williams to SEA 28 for 7 yards (B.Taylor). FUMBLES (B.Taylor), touched at SEA 21, RECOVERED by SEA-K.Lucas at SEA 21. K.Lucas ran ob at SEA 24 for 3 yards ( B.Williams fumbles recoverd by Seattle.

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

As I recall..I replied to xanz\' post..and you started in on me...And you got shut down...

Howard is niether here nor there..maybe you should take your own advice about reading the title of the thread?

Thanks :P

Dead last in yards...thats just a fact buddy....was the Offense dead last in yards..? or in points?...no...they weren\'t strong enough to carry the weak D...and we are left with yet another 8-8..

you can get mad at me all you want...but..It\'s not going to make the D better...the stats are factual...and speak for themselves...

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Somebody else please explain this thread is about the OFFENSE hurting the defense, and that causing the defense to look worse. Please please explain, cause I fear simple English is wasted on some. THE OFFENSE. THE OFFENSE. I really have no explanation for those who disagree by making your point for you. There is really no point in even debating. This is too funny. :xxrotflmao: I guess I should say thanks for clarifying my point on how the OFFENSE was hurting the defense, but what\'s the point. I like it this way. :casstet:

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Amen!!! I can\'t even begin to understand why folks want to defend the defense. Venturi for president..LMAO!! :P

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Just for clarification, the Saints D allowed 6.375 points per gaime in the 1st quarter NET (1 safety).

In 4 blowout losses at the end of the 1st quarter

AZ 7 NO 0
1 RZ fumble
1 fumble returned for score

SD 14 NO 0
1 INT negating long drive

DEN 20 NO 0
1 Short Field TD
1 Short Field FG
1 Fumble

CAR13 NO 0
1 Short Field TD
1 Short Field FG
1 Fumble

My interpretation:
54 points allowed in these losses (out of the total 106 points allowed by the defense all season in the 1st quarter) where the offense was responsible for 20 points the D allowed due to short field turnovers (where the opponent didn\'t score on the turnover itself). That\'s about 37% of the adverse scoring due to the Offense in those blowouts in the 1st quarter alone.

Any chinks in the armor of the \"Defense Sucks\" crowd yet?

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

No offense to any of you guys because you have proven you\'re not complete idiots, but I\'ve been a fan since 69, and an obsessed Saints FANATIC for about 10 years, and the 2004 Saints were absolutely unequivocally the WORST defense I\'ve ever seen wearing the Black and Gold.
They did improve toward the end of the season and that gives me hope for 2005, but the 2004 version was flat horrid. And I\'m not about to make a single excuse for them because thats exactly what it would be, AN EXCUSE.
I\'ll admit the offense didn\'t help, but even if our offense was #1 in the league, I THINK our defense would have finished about mid 20\'s at best. If that gets tingly then good for you, but it leaves me quite cold.


[Edited on 25/2/2005 by Someone who actually watches the fricking games]

[Edited on 25/2/2005 by Danno]

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

give me the overall rank of the D..

Then tell me the overall rank of the Offense

Nuff said

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Well shadow, explain the stat that we were 10th in the league in takeaways with our defense. Please. Feel free. Explain that one away.

The Darren howard point just shows how stubborn you can be when you have your mind set. I can pull the thread out and show you how long it took me and several others to explain it, AND where you started your own thread saying it wouldn\'t happen. It\'s not about being off topic of this thread, it is about reminding myself who I am disagreeing with so I don\'t waste both of our time.

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Howard himself was quoted as saying the team would not use the tag...you gonna write him a letter?...

10th in takeaways...last in yards...and just about dead last in each and every single stat related to the Defense...

Believe whatever you want....I just cannot belive that after last years performance..that there would be any person alive who would praise the Defense...I stand corrected..

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Danno -- WELL SAID!!

Everyone has the right to have an opinion on the 2004 Saints defense.

Some folks think our offense was much of the problem for our defense. That\'s fine, I suppose. But, if some folks think that, then I really have to take a long look anytime they post any of their opinions. Because that\'s the biggest reach I\'ve heard in quite some time!!

I don\'t know how much worse a defense needs to play to finish DEAD LAST in the NFL. Our defense couldn\'t have played much worse in the first 12 games.

And even with the big improvement over the last 4-games they finished .... what? DEAD LAST!!

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

That\'s what I have been saying all along

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Who\'s praising them? Are you kidding? I have said numerous times how bad they were. But I am not gonna sit here and say it was ALL their fault when the offense stank right with them. That\'s so narrow-minded as to be unbelievable. Do you honestly feel that what the offense does PLAYS NO PART in what happens with the defense? Seriously? So this isn\'t a team, it\'s two different units doing two seperate jobs totally apart from each other? So when an INT ot fumble by our offense is taken back for a TD, does that not effect the defense\'s points allowed? Again, I forgot who I was arguing with. :casstet:

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Drew Bledsoe also said HE would be the starting QB of the Bills next year. See how far HIM saying what the TEAM would do WITH HIM got him. :casstet:

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Your the one who said all of that...

You are now entering the arguing with yourself phase...

I did say I cannot believe anyone alive would praise the D...other than that..those are your words..and your assumptions...

Of course it goes hand in hand...but..you can\'t only say..that the Offense hurt the Defense...

The Defense was getting killed all year long..not taking up any time off the clock..and not giving rest to the Offense...they consitently put the Offense\'s back against the wall..letting even the laughable Cardinals score with ease..and forcing our Offense to start way behind the 50 ..on the other hand...the Offense put the D in bad situations too..this is true with each and every team that has ever played...

But..rarely has a D put an Offense in such poor shape , as often as the Saints D did last year...and the stats show it....

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

:rollinglaugh: Okay. I am gonna quit, I remember how long this took the last time.

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

I kinda agree with the fella that said this:


Guess who said this?

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

hahaha...gumbo..you are the devil...

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

:o

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

I would hope no one would argue that our defense was terrible this year. They were flat awful. Period.

I would also hope that no one would argue that our offense failed far too many times and kept putting that awful defense on the field - far more than they should have been.

I would also hope no one would argue that this fact contributed to our defense having even worse stats that they would have had if our offense had shown up in the first half all year long.

Make of that what you will.

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Nice Frenzy, but it\'s hopeless to disagree with someone who is laughing it up with a guy who says this:

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

I agree. But, since the topic is HOW MUCH our offense hurt our defense. I say that our defense would have ranked in the bottom 5 in the league regardless of our offense.

If our offense would have scored quickly ... Guess what? Our defense would have been right back on the field. And guess what? They still wouldn\'t have stopped ANYBODY!!

So, yes, the offense could have helped the defense more. But they were the WORST defense in the NFL for a reason and it had very little to do with the offense.

[Edited on 25/2/2005 by GumboBC]

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

No argument on this one. This whole thing is a lot of speculation without any way to make it definitive. I also think our defense would have ranked pretty close to the basement. I also happen to think we still SHOULD have won a few of those games but lost because the offense was also awful in those games.

I think the offense\'s stats are inflated because once enemy teams got up on us, they played smart D and let us score - they just made sure it took us forever to do it. I think the defenses stats are deflated because the offense played poorly. My most honest assessment of our team is:
Defense in the bottom 5 in the league
Offense in the bottom half of the league

Problem with all this is its just opinion - across the board.

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

No arguement from me on this one either, FrenzyFan!!

Though we might disagee on why our offense struggled so much. But, I really don\'t know what your overall thoughts are on that subject.

Though we may disagree I enjoy reading your posts... ;)

Take care FF... :D

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Same here, as always. :)

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

I\'m trying to understand how letting teams score is smart D...

Why wouldn\'t a team in the lead...want the clock running...doesn\'t really matter who scores..if you have a 20 point lead...with 5 minutes left in the fourth...It \'s not smart to let the team score against you..and stop the clock...your joking..right?



[Edited on 25/2/2005 by shadowdrinker]

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

When the team was 4-8, they beat 2 of the worst teams in the league both offensively and defensively (though still ranked higher than the Saints) and 2 teams that were superior offensively and significantly higher ranked defensively.

They lost 2 games MIN and TB because the offense didn\'t decide to play until the end of the game (padding stats) and barely lost both

In 5 blowouts, the D looked bad, but were up against 3 of the top 10 offenses and only AZ worse than ours. In those 5 blowouts, the game was decided in the 1st half, due to turnovers by the offense that resulted in scores and an inability to move generate any offense.

If you remove 20 points caused by the offense in those games, the D rank on scoring improves from 27nd to 22nd. Yardage improves from 32nd to 31st.

I\'m not saying that the D was very good, I just don\'t think that it was as bad, even when the team was getting blown out, as people seem to think. The stats on final season wouldn\'t lead you to think that the Saints won any games. EOY stats are often skewed by radical outliers.

While one can say that the D was a radical outlier, the fact that the saints won 7 of 10 close games, they lost 5 of 6 games decided by 10 or more points. In each of those games, the offense didn\'t score but a total of 61 points (12.2/game) and all of those points were scored after the games were not in doubt. Removing those 61 points puts the offense at 18.9 points per game and 26th in scoring, and 284 yards per game or 26th.

Forcing the Defense to play 4 quarters while the offense plays 3 most quarters and in 5 games, essentially 1 quarter, seems to me to be exessively punitive on the Defense.

There were two games lost because the Saints couldn\'t manage a critical 1st down (TB and ATL) where there was only 1 game where the D couldn\'t get the ball back (MIN)

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

I hear you xan. Gosh that is fine work. :thumbsup: It\'s unfortunate that your good work will fall mainly on deaf ears. Keep trying though, I like reading it. :D

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

The problem is...you base your views starting with \'\'if you take away this\'\'

You can\'t just take things away....then make them fit...y\'know..it is what it is...

If you take away the good things Defenses do..you would be left with the Defense we have...

The numbers don\'t lie...and they don\'t change...situational stats are just that..situational...

Here\'s a situation...Put the Defense up against 16 other teams Offenses..and see how they do...that one..I can prove...Dead Last...

Let\'s take a look at the past 3 years...Offense rank vs. Defensive rank....


2002 - Offense -19th - Defense - 27th

2003 - Offense - 11th -Defense - 18th

2004 - Offense - 15th - Defense - 32nd

Even though the Defense was scraping the bottom of the barrell...the Offense still managed to acheive a top 15 ranking..and has maintained good production for consecutive years...the Defense on the other hand...



[Edited on 25/2/2005 by shadowdrinker]

2004 Defensive Performance not as bad as you thinnk
 

Ya know, if you take away the handful of big running plays per game against us, and take away the numerous pass plays against us, our defense would probably rank about mid-pack.

Of course if you change the same number of plays for our offense they\'d finish top 2 or 3 in the league.

Hey this is fun. If you add a few more TD\'s to Brooks\' numbers you\'d have Tom Brady.

If you drop 20 lbs from Deuces weight, he may have flirted with 2000 yards.

If Venturi had gotten hit by a runaway bus in week 1 our defense may have finished upper third.