Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal

03-09-2016, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Yes, nicely structured. but all this talk of dead money means little. New TV deals will continue to help the cap rise at a huge rate for the foreseeable future. Loomis was one of the very few who saw this coming. But then again, he is one of the very few that is trained in the discipline to anticipate these adjustments.

That vast majority of GM's in the NFL are talent oriented with little or no clue of economics or accounting principles. They are primarily personnel driven. Loomis was schooled as an accountant. He knows how to maximize something as simple as a cap. He knows how to to work contracts through cost and management accounting concepts that most cannot understand.

My degree is in accounting and I was among the top of my class. I have always understood what he was doing and he is brilliant. The whole ongoing farce of the Saints being in "cap hell" in based upon a totally uneducated media feeding an equally uneducated public.

Your affection for Loomis gets pretty nauseating, man. You consistently say that fans don't understand this or that, and we all know you're talking about yourself as much as Loomis. You never miss a chance to tell us you have a degree in accounting, and that you saw everything coming.

I don't buy this junk that Loomis is one of the very few GM's who understands economics. You CANNOT run a front office without understanding the money side. If the GM, himself, does not handle the financial side, then I can guarantee you there is someone in that organization whose job it is to specifically handle the cap and study any potential future changes.

This team is constantly hovering around the cap, while other successful teams are not. You know why? Because he over-invests in too many players. I think you give this guy entirely too much credit for doing things that any GM worth his salt should be able to do. But if he can't offer anything in making good personnel decisions, then all he really is, is a glorified accountant.

Fleener is a decent player, but there were much bigger needs with players whom this team unfortunately couldn't reasonably afford. Yes, I am sure they will try to address those things in the draft, but it's nice to have some reliable veterans to add some immediate impact.

Beastmode · 03-09-2016, 10:22 PM

Kinda get it but at that premium price no. We have a serious aversion to forming an average defense which is the apex of the problem.

QBREES9 · 03-09-2016, 10:26 PM

Excited.

jeanpierre · 03-09-2016, 10:30 PM

Dan Campbell seems like a legit hire and a solid coach; and I'm sure he'll get the all-around game part down for Coby Fleener, Michael Hoomanawanu and Josh Hill?...

There's some legit questions about this guy's ability to catch the ball, especially on third downs and in the red zone...

Can see the Saints addressing the need of big targets on third downs and red zone, but...

Brees under duress with no top flight guards chunking the ball downfield to Coby Fleener and Brandon Coleman?!?

:headscratcher:

hagan714 · 03-09-2016, 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI

Hmm WalterFootball hates it... Hope we prove him wrong!

Saints sign TE Coby Fleener (5 years, $36 million): KIELBASA SLIPS THROUGH THE FINGERS MILLEN Grade
I wonder how it feels to be a Colts fan right now. On one hand, they must be very depressed that they still have the incompetent Ryan Grigson running things. On the other hand, they have to be cracking up upon seeing the numbers Coby Fleener received from the Saints.

This signing is horrible. Aside from perhaps Vernon Davis, no tight end drops more passes than Coby Fleener. I'm sure he'll post some great numbers with Drew Brees throwing the ball to him, but he'll absolutely kill his new team with some untimely drops. Then again, maybe he won't be a fantasy monster, given that he couldn't produce with Andrew Luck, even when Dwayne Allen was out of the lineup with his injury issues.

This is an easy Millen. I don't understand what the Saints saw in him to make them believe that he's worth more than $7 million per year. Fleener, an average starter at best, would've been overpaid had he gotten half as much.

BUT he did time share with Dwayne Allen, when Allen was not injured. So I really have to pause before buying into this now. Coby will be abused by Drew and not an after thought like he was in Indi. Expecting the ball and praying for a pass attempt are two totally different mind sets.

I like the kid coming out of college and thought this was a pick up to costly for the saints given other team needs. But once again the saints proved me wrong and put most of their cap eggs in one basket. 7 million + a year is way over the amount he was projected to sign for. He was projected to be in the 4 to 5 mill range and even then I thought that might be to much.

Saints signed TE Coby Fleener, formerly of the Colts, to a five-year, $36 million contract.

Steelers signed TE Ladarius Green, formerly of the Chargers, to a four-year, $20 million contract.
http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7568/ladarius-green

signings in the same range
Buccaneers signed OG J.R. Sweezy, formerly of the Seahawks, to a five-year, $32.5 million contract.
Jaguars signed FS Tashaun Gipson, formerly of the Browns, to a five-year, $35.5 million contract.
Texans signed G/T Jeff Allen, formerly of the Chiefs, to a four-year, $28 million contract.

other cheaper signings
Falcons signed DE Derrick Shelby, formerly of the Dolphins, to a four-year, $18 million contract.
Chargers signed DT Brandon Mebane, formerly of the Seahawks, to a three-year contract worth $13.5 million.
Dolphins agreed to terms with S Isa Abdul-Quddus, formerly of the Lions, on a three-year, $12.75 million contract.

for a few bucks more
Eagles agreed to terms with RG Brandon Brooks, formerly of the Texans, on a five-year, $40 million contract.
Raiders signed G/T Kelechi Osemele, formerly of the Ravens, to a five-year, $58.5 million contract.
Giants agreed to terms with NT Damon Harrison, formerly of the Jets, on a five-year, $46.25 million contract with $24 million guaranteed.

This one hurt
Falcons signed C Alex Mack, formerly of the Browns, to a five-year, $47.5 million contract.

So just like last year and the signing of Spiller the saints went way over board to get their player.

Fingers, toes and nose hairs crossed that Byrd, Spiller and now Coby can play up to their pay grade.

Well at the very least Coby fantasy stock just got a huge boost along with his wallet.

Falcons made two solid signings as did the Bucs

AsylumGuido · 03-09-2016, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by Saint in Aus

Does his signing bonus count toward this year's cap?

No. Signing bonuses are always applied proportionately over the remaining contract per year.

AsylumGuido · 03-09-2016, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Your affection for Loomis gets pretty nauseating, man. You consistently say that fans don't understand this or that, and we all know you're talking about yourself as much as Loomis. You never miss a chance to tell us you have a degree in accounting, and that you saw everything coming.

I don't buy this junk that Loomis is one of the very few GM's who understands economics. You CANNOT run a front office without understanding the money side. If the GM, himself, does not handle the financial side, then I can guarantee you there is someone in that organization whose job it is to specifically handle the cap and study any potential future changes.

This team is constantly hovering around the cap, while other successful teams are not. You know why? Because he over-invests in too many players. I think you give this guy entirely too much credit for doing things that any GM worth his salt should be able to do. But if he can't offer anything in making good personnel decisions, then all he really is, is a glorified accountant.

Fleener is a decent player, but there were much bigger needs with players whom this team unfortunately couldn't reasonably afford. Yes, I am sure they will try to address those things in the draft, but it's nice to have some reliable veterans to add some immediate impact.

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong. Constantly hovering around the cap is known as maximizing available resources. There is far more cap remaining than you know. There are several contracts remaining on roster that were structure for conversion if, and when, needed, including up to $17 million on Brees' contract alone. I point out my knowledge of accounting because it simply means that I understand the concept through specific education.

Have over-investments been made in players by the Saints? Absolutely! But you are naive as hell if you think that is on Loomis. He is exactly what you described him as earlier, a glorified accountant. A damned good one at that. Payton totally runs this ship and tells Loomis to "make it so" and Loomis complies. The personnel and what we have in them are all on Payton. Loomis just makes it work in a remarkable manner.

hitta · 03-10-2016, 02:24 AM

People love to go on and on about how good Jimmy was for us or how good Gronk is for the Pats. And while I'm not trying to take anything away from either of them, but both teams know how to use the TE positions really effectively, much better than the rest of the league does imo. We'll end up making Fleener look like the next Jimmy Graham.

Note: You can just see with Seattle that they don't know how to use Graham even close to as effective as we used him.

burningmetal · 03-10-2016, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Sorry, but that is where you are wrong. Constantly hovering around the cap is known as maximizing available resources. There is far more cap remaining than you know. There are several contracts remaining on roster that were structure for conversion if, and when, needed, including up to $17 million on Brees' contract alone. I point out my knowledge of accounting because it simply means that I understand the concept through specific education.

Have over-investments been made in players by the Saints? Absolutely! But you are naive as hell if you think that is on Loomis. He is exactly what you described him as earlier, a glorified accountant. A damned good one at that. Payton totally runs this ship and tells Loomis to "make it so" and Loomis complies. The personnel and what we have in them are all on Payton. Loomis just makes it work in a remarkable manner.

Maximizing resources, eh? That's a clever spin. Our Franchise player is running for his life because we "maximized our resources" on that awesome offensive line over the years. Sorry, but that isn't going to fly in my kitchen. It's poor management of money, as well as personnel. And let me remind you that he is called the general manager for a reason. If he knows nothing more than accounting, then he is a financial advisor. He should have a little more knowledge of the game.

You also seem to confuse what you do with professional sports. There is a system that all teams have to abide by, and it's not the same as everyday banking. So while you're telling all of us how little you think we know, you might want to remember that fact.

On numerous occasions I've read your posts claiming that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, yet you insist Payton makes all the decisions despite the fact that you haven't spent one more second in the Saints front office than I have. Seems a tad hypocritical to me. You really need to lighten up and accept that we are all fans, and we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean we know nothing. You can have more degrees than a thermometer for all anyone cares. Understanding the cap is not the science you make it out to be.

Crusader · 03-10-2016, 05:08 AM

So we'll se in a year how good a signing this was but I am excited.
I really liked Ben Watson on our team but at 35 he is not the future but Fleener might be.

Fleener is 3 inches taller and has a great vertical, that should make him the ideal target in the corners of the endzone together with Coleman. Cooks and Snead can take all the quick slants and what not.
He went to Stanford so he should be pretty smart, that seems to be an important thing for the Saints when bringing in players. He is also fast and ran a 4,52 40-yard dash back at the combine. Correctly used he should be able to help us stretch the field. All in all I think its a good signing.

I predict 940 yds, 8TDs and a Pro-bowl.

03-09-2016, 10:05 PM	#91
Threaded by burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3 Rating: (0 votes - average) Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Yes, nicely structured. but all this talk of dead money means little. New TV deals will continue to help the cap rise at a huge rate for the foreseeable future. Loomis was one of the very few who saw this coming. But then again, he is one of the very few that is trained in the discipline to anticipate these adjustments. That vast majority of GM's in the NFL are talent oriented with little or no clue of economics or accounting principles. They are primarily personnel driven. Loomis was schooled as an accountant. He knows how to maximize something as simple as a cap. He knows how to to work contracts through cost and management accounting concepts that most cannot understand. My degree is in accounting and I was among the top of my class. I have always understood what he was doing and he is brilliant. The whole ongoing farce of the Saints being in "cap hell" in based upon a totally uneducated media feeding an equally uneducated public. Your affection for Loomis gets pretty nauseating, man. You consistently say that fans don't understand this or that, and we all know you're talking about yourself as much as Loomis. You never miss a chance to tell us you have a degree in accounting, and that you saw everything coming. I don't buy this junk that Loomis is one of the very few GM's who understands economics. You CANNOT run a front office without understanding the money side. If the GM, himself, does not handle the financial side, then I can guarantee you there is someone in that organization whose job it is to specifically handle the cap and study any potential future changes. This team is constantly hovering around the cap, while other successful teams are not. You know why? Because he over-invests in too many players. I think you give this guy entirely too much credit for doing things that any GM worth his salt should be able to do. But if he can't offer anything in making good personnel decisions, then all he really is, is a glorified accountant. Fleener is a decent player, but there were much bigger needs with players whom this team unfortunately couldn't reasonably afford. Yes, I am sure they will try to address those things in the draft, but it's nice to have some reliable veterans to add some immediate impact. jonnyrotten, hagan714, jeanpierre and 5 others like this.
Views: 24371

03-09-2016, 10:22 PM	#92
Beastmode 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 9,126	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal Kinda get it but at that premium price no. We have a serious aversion to forming an average defense which is the apex of the problem. SaintFanInATLHELL likes this.
Beastmode 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 9,126

03-09-2016, 10:26 PM	#93
QBREES9 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New Haven Ct Posts: 23,985	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal Excited.

03-09-2016, 10:30 PM	#94
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal Dan Campbell seems like a legit hire and a solid coach; and I'm sure he'll get the all-around game part down for Coby Fleener, Michael Hoomanawanu and Josh Hill?... There's some legit questions about this guy's ability to catch the ball, especially on third downs and in the red zone... Can see the Saints addressing the need of big targets on third downs and red zone, but... Brees under duress with no top flight guards chunking the ball downfield to Coby Fleener and Brandon Coleman?!? :headscratcher: brees84 likes this.

03-09-2016, 11:08 PM	#95
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal Originally Posted by ChrisXVI Hmm WalterFootball hates it... Hope we prove him wrong! Saints sign TE Coby Fleener (5 years, $36 million): KIELBASA SLIPS THROUGH THE FINGERS MILLEN Grade I wonder how it feels to be a Colts fan right now. On one hand, they must be very depressed that they still have the incompetent Ryan Grigson running things. On the other hand, they have to be cracking up upon seeing the numbers Coby Fleener received from the Saints. This signing is horrible. Aside from perhaps Vernon Davis, no tight end drops more passes than Coby Fleener. I'm sure he'll post some great numbers with Drew Brees throwing the ball to him, but he'll absolutely kill his new team with some untimely drops. Then again, maybe he won't be a fantasy monster, given that he couldn't produce with Andrew Luck, even when Dwayne Allen was out of the lineup with his injury issues. This is an easy Millen. I don't understand what the Saints saw in him to make them believe that he's worth more than $7 million per year. Fleener, an average starter at best, would've been overpaid had he gotten half as much. BUT he did time share with Dwayne Allen, when Allen was not injured. So I really have to pause before buying into this now. Coby will be abused by Drew and not an after thought like he was in Indi. Expecting the ball and praying for a pass attempt are two totally different mind sets. I like the kid coming out of college and thought this was a pick up to costly for the saints given other team needs. But once again the saints proved me wrong and put most of their cap eggs in one basket. 7 million + a year is way over the amount he was projected to sign for. He was projected to be in the 4 to 5 mill range and even then I thought that might be to much. Saints signed TE Coby Fleener, formerly of the Colts, to a five-year, $36 million contract. Steelers signed TE Ladarius Green, formerly of the Chargers, to a four-year, $20 million contract. http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7568/ladarius-green signings in the same range Buccaneers signed OG J.R. Sweezy, formerly of the Seahawks, to a five-year, $32.5 million contract. Jaguars signed FS Tashaun Gipson, formerly of the Browns, to a five-year, $35.5 million contract. Texans signed G/T Jeff Allen, formerly of the Chiefs, to a four-year, $28 million contract. other cheaper signings Falcons signed DE Derrick Shelby, formerly of the Dolphins, to a four-year, $18 million contract. Chargers signed DT Brandon Mebane, formerly of the Seahawks, to a three-year contract worth $13.5 million. Dolphins agreed to terms with S Isa Abdul-Quddus, formerly of the Lions, on a three-year, $12.75 million contract. for a few bucks more Eagles agreed to terms with RG Brandon Brooks, formerly of the Texans, on a five-year, $40 million contract. Raiders signed G/T Kelechi Osemele, formerly of the Ravens, to a five-year, $58.5 million contract. Giants agreed to terms with NT Damon Harrison, formerly of the Jets, on a five-year, $46.25 million contract with $24 million guaranteed. This one hurt Falcons signed C Alex Mack, formerly of the Browns, to a five-year, $47.5 million contract. So just like last year and the signing of Spiller the saints went way over board to get their player. Fingers, toes and nose hairs crossed that Byrd, Spiller and now Coby can play up to their pay grade. Well at the very least Coby fantasy stock just got a huge boost along with his wallet. Falcons made two solid signings as did the Bucs brees84 and Saint in Aus like this.
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins Last edited by hagan714; 03-09-2016 at 11:48 PM..

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03-09-2016, 11:36 PM	#96
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,045	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal Originally Posted by Saint in Aus Does his signing bonus count toward this year's cap? No. Signing bonuses are always applied proportionately over the remaining contract per year.

03-09-2016, 11:53 PM	#97
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,045	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal Originally Posted by burningmetal Your affection for Loomis gets pretty nauseating, man. You consistently say that fans don't understand this or that, and we all know you're talking about yourself as much as Loomis. You never miss a chance to tell us you have a degree in accounting, and that you saw everything coming. I don't buy this junk that Loomis is one of the very few GM's who understands economics. You CANNOT run a front office without understanding the money side. If the GM, himself, does not handle the financial side, then I can guarantee you there is someone in that organization whose job it is to specifically handle the cap and study any potential future changes. This team is constantly hovering around the cap, while other successful teams are not. You know why? Because he over-invests in too many players. I think you give this guy entirely too much credit for doing things that any GM worth his salt should be able to do. But if he can't offer anything in making good personnel decisions, then all he really is, is a glorified accountant. Fleener is a decent player, but there were much bigger needs with players whom this team unfortunately couldn't reasonably afford. Yes, I am sure they will try to address those things in the draft, but it's nice to have some reliable veterans to add some immediate impact. Sorry, but that is where you are wrong. Constantly hovering around the cap is known as maximizing available resources. There is far more cap remaining than you know. There are several contracts remaining on roster that were structure for conversion if, and when, needed, including up to $17 million on Brees' contract alone. I point out my knowledge of accounting because it simply means that I understand the concept through specific education. Have over-investments been made in players by the Saints? Absolutely! But you are naive as hell if you think that is on Loomis. He is exactly what you described him as earlier, a glorified accountant. A damned good one at that. Payton totally runs this ship and tells Loomis to "make it so" and Loomis complies. The personnel and what we have in them are all on Payton. Loomis just makes it work in a remarkable manner. Crusader and Utah_Saint like this.

03-10-2016, 02:24 AM	#98
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,318	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal People love to go on and on about how good Jimmy was for us or how good Gronk is for the Pats. And while I'm not trying to take anything away from either of them, but both teams know how to use the TE positions really effectively, much better than the rest of the league does imo. We'll end up making Fleener look like the next Jimmy Graham. Note: You can just see with Seattle that they don't know how to use Graham even close to as effective as we used him. Utah_Saint likes this.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,318

03-10-2016, 02:54 AM	#99
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Sorry, but that is where you are wrong. Constantly hovering around the cap is known as maximizing available resources. There is far more cap remaining than you know. There are several contracts remaining on roster that were structure for conversion if, and when, needed, including up to $17 million on Brees' contract alone. I point out my knowledge of accounting because it simply means that I understand the concept through specific education. Have over-investments been made in players by the Saints? Absolutely! But you are naive as hell if you think that is on Loomis. He is exactly what you described him as earlier, a glorified accountant. A damned good one at that. Payton totally runs this ship and tells Loomis to "make it so" and Loomis complies. The personnel and what we have in them are all on Payton. Loomis just makes it work in a remarkable manner. Maximizing resources, eh? That's a clever spin. Our Franchise player is running for his life because we "maximized our resources" on that awesome offensive line over the years. Sorry, but that isn't going to fly in my kitchen. It's poor management of money, as well as personnel. And let me remind you that he is called the general manager for a reason. If he knows nothing more than accounting, then he is a financial advisor. He should have a little more knowledge of the game. You also seem to confuse what you do with professional sports. There is a system that all teams have to abide by, and it's not the same as everyday banking. So while you're telling all of us how little you think we know, you might want to remember that fact. On numerous occasions I've read your posts claiming that we don't know what goes on behind the scenes, yet you insist Payton makes all the decisions despite the fact that you haven't spent one more second in the Saints front office than I have. Seems a tad hypocritical to me. You really need to lighten up and accept that we are all fans, and we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean we know nothing. You can have more degrees than a thermometer for all anyone cares. Understanding the cap is not the science you make it out to be. jeanpierre likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

03-10-2016, 05:08 AM	#100
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,017	Re: Saints Sign Coby Fleener 5 year deal So we'll se in a year how good a signing this was but I am excited. I really liked Ben Watson on our team but at 35 he is not the future but Fleener might be. Fleener is 3 inches taller and has a great vertical, that should make him the ideal target in the corners of the endzone together with Coleman. Cooks and Snead can take all the quick slants and what not. He went to Stanford so he should be pretty smart, that seems to be an important thing for the Saints when bringing in players. He is also fast and ran a 4,52 40-yard dash back at the combine. Correctly used he should be able to help us stretch the field. All in all I think its a good signing. I predict 940 yds, 8TDs and a Pro-bowl. SmashMouth likes this.
	W.T. Sherman is my favorite General. After all he did order Atlanta to be burned to the ground.

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