Saints' linebackers (all of 'em)

GumboBC · 03-01-2005, 07:34 AM

I recently started a thread on Courtney Watson and I think it was misunderstood and I also think I did a poor job of stating my opinion. So, I want to talk about ALL of our LBs for a sec.

But, before I talk about any of the individual players we have at LB, I want to talk about the importance and differences of each spot.

Weak side linebacker 4-3
The weak side backer is the second best playmaker on the defense usually. He has a little further to go at times to make plays but is often left unaccounted for in the blocking scheme. Many big play linebackers come from this position because they are allowed to freelance more and flow to the play with less traffic to fight through. A good strong side backer makes a perfect set up man for the WLB when he clogs the play and forces the ball carrier back to the middle. The WLB generally has fewer responsibilities than other front 7 positions. He is responsible for shutting down the reverse and closing up cut back lanes against the run while most of his pass responsibility amounts to keeping tabs on relief valve receivers like backs on swing passes or short back side screens. One side note when it comes to outside backers in the NFL, some teams have gone to right and left side linebackers where instead of switching sides based on strength of formation, the defenders remain on the same side and responsibility changes with the formations.

Strong side linebacker 4-3
Here is where we answer the question of why a strong side linebacker struggles to produce in the box scores. At a glance it would make more sense that since teams run to the strong side more often, the strong side backer should make more plays. It all goes back to the description of formations. While its true that teams run to the strong side more often, the reason they do so is to take advantage of the additional blocker or blockers. A strong side backer often finds himself at the point of attack which means the offensive blocking scheme has accounted for him with at least one blocker, often a TE or fullback, but sometimes a pulling guard is responsible for taking him out. The main responsibility of this position against the run is to defeat or at least eliminate the blockers at the point of attack so that the runner has to alter his course by cutting up early or stringing out toward the sideline. In concept this is to allow pursuit from the safeties and/or other linebackers to bottle up the runner. Against the pass a strong side backer is usually responsible for the tight end or fullback out of the backfield. Chances are if there isn't a TE or FB, the defense will be in a nickel formation where the SLB position is basically eliminated. Some schemes take advantage of a SLB who is a good pass rusher by leaving him free to blitz instead of dropping into coverage when the TE releases into the pass pattern. If a strong side linebacer is on the field in obvious passing situations he must possess the speed to be able to cover the tightends. Examples are: Lavar Arrington in Washington, Rosevelt Colvin last year in Chicago, Jamir Miller the year before last for the Browns and to a lesser degree Mark Fields in Carolina.

Middle linebacker 4-3
This is the ultimate position of all the linebackers because all defensive schemes are designed to funnel plays to the middle of the field. The MLB is protected from blockers by the tackles who make it tough for either the center or guards to get off the line. Miami's defense does this as well as any in the game, keeping Zach Thomas free from blockers while forcing ball carriers toward him. Ray Lewis is probably the NFL's premier linebacker. He is able to flow to the play and pile up the tackle numbers. At the snap of the ball the middle backer will look for keys that tell him if the play is pass or run. His first read is the offensive line. A pass blocking offensive lineman will stand up out of his stance as opposed to a run blocker who fires out to engage the defender. Offenses have tricks such as draw plays to disguise their blocking schemes so there are reads beyond the initial line movement. Pass coverage responsibilities will depend on the cover scheme called but once run is diagnosed, the MLB has a single assignment, get to the ball carrier.

Okay, hopefully everyone agrees with the description of all the linebacker positions in the 4-3 defense??

There's been much talk on this board about the OLB being the most important LB on the field. However, that is not true.

In fact, the OLB has the easiest job of any of the linebackers. He has less blockers to worry about and his play generally depends on how well the SLB sets up the play for him. He might pile up great stats, but that's becasuse he's playing in space and doesn't have to worry about much.

I'm going to leave it at that for a while and hopefully we can get some good opinions on the linebacker positions in general....

Danno · 03-01-2005, 08:23 AM

There\'s been much talk on this board about the OLB being the most important LB on the field. However, that is not true. In fact, the OLB has the easiest job of any of the linebackers. He has less blockers to worry about and his play generally depends on how well the SLB sets up the play for him. He might pile up great stats, but that\'s because he\'s playing in space and doesn\'t have to worry about much.

This is where you stretch it. Just because plays funnel back toward the middle doesn\'t mean its the most important position. In fact, it would appear that the MLB typically requires the least amount of atheleticism of the 3 backers. The MLB simply has to be a solid tackler. Ever wonder why most teams scheme against the opponents OLB\'s rather than the MLB\'s?
James Allen was switched from WLB to SLB because of his abilities to play through traffic.The SLB is apparently the one position that requires the least thinking of the 3. Thats why many (including me) thought his switch to SLB would work fine because he didn\'t have to think as much. But it appeared the mental part of the game didn\'t click for him until week 12. Was it a fluke? Or did he finally get it?

I forget who said it but they nailed it. It depends on the defensives schemes you implore as to which is more important. Thats why Brookings (one of the top MLB\'s in the league) was switched to WLB.

As far as \"gifted atheletes\" go the giftd OLB is usually an atheletic freak of nature. The MLB isn\'t typically as fast or as atheletic as the OLB\'s. But he is typically bigger and stronger than the other two.

But I\'d rather have a stud OLB and a good MLB over a Stud MLB and a good OLB anyday. Unless you\'re weak up the middle. Then the MLB becomes the key stop-gap. But I\'d rather fix the problem up front 1st.
But times are changing. The skillset of all 3 LB\'s appears to be merging closer and closer as offenses innovate new ways to spread the field. Power and Speed are more important than ever.
But it appears you aren\'t gonna give up you\'re MLB/Watson angle no matter what. But at least its not yet another AB arguement. Or will it be?

baronm · 03-01-2005, 08:43 AM

THe MLB calls the plays for the defense..he has to be intelligent to focus on what plays are being run by the offense. therefore the MLB is the QB for the defense.

GumboBC · 03-01-2005, 10:21 AM

JKool and Danno --

Here\'s the point I THINK both of you are missing.

The OLB is left unaccouted for most of the time. They are free to roam the field and free-lance. It is, by far, the easiest position of all 3 linebackers. All you need is a guy who can run fast and tackle. He doesn\'t have to worry about much.

The MLB, on the other hand, has to take on blockers, shed blocks, and get to the ball carrier. He must also be fast enough to cover in the passing game.

It\'s much easier to find a good OLB than a MLB.

Now, you keep on wanting to talk about these BIG linebackers whose only job it is to stuff the run. Well, hardly anyone is using those guys anymore!

saintswhodi · 03-01-2005, 09:13 AM

But at least its not yet another AB arguement. Or will it be?

Wow Danno. You seem to be the only one who can\'t let that go. You get what you want and you still poke your hand in the fire. Obsess much?

BlackandBlue · 03-01-2005, 09:25 AM

There aren\'t too many here that weren\'t beat down by the AB Wars of 2003-2004.

You get what you want

And what was it that Danno got, exactly?

saintswhodi · 03-01-2005, 09:43 AM

And what was it that Danno got, exactly?

Pretty much every AB discussion, or offense discussion in general, Danno felt was a waste of time cause we were discussing the wrong positions and the wrong side of the ball. Now mainly ALL of the talk has been on defense, and LBs in particular, and it has been very interesting, and he still has to poke at the AB debate. SO he got what he was begging for, yet he is the only one who can\'t let it go.

GumboBC · 03-01-2005, 10:06 AM

This is where you stretch it. Just because plays funnel back toward the middle doesn\'t mean its the most important position. In fact, it would appear that the MLB typically requires the least amount of atheleticism of the 3 backers.

Danno --

The WLB is a guy who makes a lot of plays. He\'s also the guy, out of all 3 linebackers, who has less blockers to take on. He\'s pretty much free to roam around and make plays. The WLB is mostly unaccouted for.

The MLB, on the other hand, is usually met by a fullback or an offensive lineman and must be physical enough to shed those blocks and get to the ball carrier. He also must be fast enough to cover in the passing game.

Both the OLB and the MLB need to have enough speed to cover in the passing game. Both must be able to tackle. But, the middle linebacker needs to be stronger to be able to shed blocks.

And I just cut and pasted the write up on the importance of the positions. That wasn\'t me who said it.....

Here\'s the article:

http://www.redeyesports.com/Breakingdownadefense.htm

Danno · 03-01-2005, 10:07 AM

And what was it that Danno got, exactly?

Pretty much every AB discussion, or offense discussion in general, Danno felt was a waste of time cause we were discussing the wrong positions and the wrong side of the ball. Now mainly ALL of the talk has been on defense, and LBs in particular, and it has been very interesting, and he still has to poke at the AB debate. SO he got what he was begging for, yet he is the only one who can\'t let it go.

I was just poking fun.
Lighten up dude! Having AB withdrawals?
Maybe I shoulda

BlackandBlue · 03-01-2005, 10:09 AM

I doubt that many here believe that AB is the answer at QB, despite what Danno says. I respect Danno\'s opinion, but honestly, I\'m not sold either. But the AB threads were some of the longest, most volatile subjects we\'ve had on this board, with many posters angering one another continuously. I\'ve seen political debates that didn\'t have as much heart.
This goes out to everyone at B&G.net. You don\'t have to agree with someone\'s opinion to respect what they are saying. Know that we have the most knowledgeable Saints\' fan base on the net. Give respect, and you will most certainly receive it. We\'re all guilty of blowing our tops and unloading on someone, I am as guilty as anyone here. Just let posts roll once and a while, don\'t feel like you have to constantly kidney punch someone into submission.

[Edited on 1/3/2005 by BlackandBlue]

03-01-2005, 07:34 AM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) I recently started a thread on Courtney Watson and I think it was misunderstood and I also think I did a poor job of stating my opinion. So, I want to talk about ALL of our LBs for a sec. But, before I talk about any of the individual players we have at LB, I want to talk about the importance and differences of each spot. Weak side linebacker 4-3 The weak side backer is the second best playmaker on the defense usually. He has a little further to go at times to make plays but is often left unaccounted for in the blocking scheme. Many big play linebackers come from this position because they are allowed to freelance more and flow to the play with less traffic to fight through. A good strong side backer makes a perfect set up man for the WLB when he clogs the play and forces the ball carrier back to the middle. The WLB generally has fewer responsibilities than other front 7 positions. He is responsible for shutting down the reverse and closing up cut back lanes against the run while most of his pass responsibility amounts to keeping tabs on relief valve receivers like backs on swing passes or short back side screens. One side note when it comes to outside backers in the NFL, some teams have gone to right and left side linebackers where instead of switching sides based on strength of formation, the defenders remain on the same side and responsibility changes with the formations. Strong side linebacker 4-3 Here is where we answer the question of why a strong side linebacker struggles to produce in the box scores. At a glance it would make more sense that since teams run to the strong side more often, the strong side backer should make more plays. It all goes back to the description of formations. While its true that teams run to the strong side more often, the reason they do so is to take advantage of the additional blocker or blockers. A strong side backer often finds himself at the point of attack which means the offensive blocking scheme has accounted for him with at least one blocker, often a TE or fullback, but sometimes a pulling guard is responsible for taking him out. The main responsibility of this position against the run is to defeat or at least eliminate the blockers at the point of attack so that the runner has to alter his course by cutting up early or stringing out toward the sideline. In concept this is to allow pursuit from the safeties and/or other linebackers to bottle up the runner. Against the pass a strong side backer is usually responsible for the tight end or fullback out of the backfield. Chances are if there isn't a TE or FB, the defense will be in a nickel formation where the SLB position is basically eliminated. Some schemes take advantage of a SLB who is a good pass rusher by leaving him free to blitz instead of dropping into coverage when the TE releases into the pass pattern. If a strong side linebacer is on the field in obvious passing situations he must possess the speed to be able to cover the tightends. Examples are: Lavar Arrington in Washington, Rosevelt Colvin last year in Chicago, Jamir Miller the year before last for the Browns and to a lesser degree Mark Fields in Carolina. Middle linebacker 4-3 This is the ultimate position of all the linebackers because all defensive schemes are designed to funnel plays to the middle of the field. The MLB is protected from blockers by the tackles who make it tough for either the center or guards to get off the line. Miami's defense does this as well as any in the game, keeping Zach Thomas free from blockers while forcing ball carriers toward him. Ray Lewis is probably the NFL's premier linebacker. He is able to flow to the play and pile up the tackle numbers. At the snap of the ball the middle backer will look for keys that tell him if the play is pass or run. His first read is the offensive line. A pass blocking offensive lineman will stand up out of his stance as opposed to a run blocker who fires out to engage the defender. Offenses have tricks such as draw plays to disguise their blocking schemes so there are reads beyond the initial line movement. Pass coverage responsibilities will depend on the cover scheme called but once run is diagnosed, the MLB has a single assignment, get to the ball carrier. Okay, hopefully everyone agrees with the description of all the linebacker positions in the 4-3 defense?? There's been much talk on this board about the OLB being the most important LB on the field. However, that is not true. In fact, the OLB has the easiest job of any of the linebackers. He has less blockers to worry about and his play generally depends on how well the SLB sets up the play for him. He might pile up great stats, but that's becasuse he's playing in space and doesn't have to worry about much. I'm going to leave it at that for a while and hopefully we can get some good opinions on the linebacker positions in general....
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-01-2005, 08:23 AM	#2
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,747	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) There\'s been much talk on this board about the OLB being the most important LB on the field. However, that is not true. In fact, the OLB has the easiest job of any of the linebackers. He has less blockers to worry about and his play generally depends on how well the SLB sets up the play for him. He might pile up great stats, but that\'s because he\'s playing in space and doesn\'t have to worry about much. This is where you stretch it. Just because plays funnel back toward the middle doesn\'t mean its the most important position. In fact, it would appear that the MLB typically requires the least amount of atheleticism of the 3 backers. The MLB simply has to be a solid tackler. Ever wonder why most teams scheme against the opponents OLB\'s rather than the MLB\'s? James Allen was switched from WLB to SLB because of his abilities to play through traffic.The SLB is apparently the one position that requires the least thinking of the 3. Thats why many (including me) thought his switch to SLB would work fine because he didn\'t have to think as much. But it appeared the mental part of the game didn\'t click for him until week 12. Was it a fluke? Or did he finally get it? I forget who said it but they nailed it. It depends on the defensives schemes you implore as to which is more important. Thats why Brookings (one of the top MLB\'s in the league) was switched to WLB. As far as \"gifted atheletes\" go the giftd OLB is usually an atheletic freak of nature. The MLB isn\'t typically as fast or as atheletic as the OLB\'s. But he is typically bigger and stronger than the other two. But I\'d rather have a stud OLB and a good MLB over a Stud MLB and a good OLB anyday. Unless you\'re weak up the middle. Then the MLB becomes the key stop-gap. But I\'d rather fix the problem up front 1st. But times are changing. The skillset of all 3 LB\'s appears to be merging closer and closer as offenses innovate new ways to spread the field. Power and Speed are more important than ever. But it appears you aren\'t gonna give up you\'re MLB/Watson angle no matter what. But at least its not yet another AB arguement. Or will it be?

03-01-2005, 08:43 AM	#3
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) THe MLB calls the plays for the defense..he has to be intelligent to focus on what plays are being run by the offense. therefore the MLB is the QB for the defense.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

03-01-2005, 10:21 AM	#4
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) JKool and Danno -- Here\'s the point I THINK both of you are missing. The OLB is left unaccouted for most of the time. They are free to roam the field and free-lance. It is, by far, the easiest position of all 3 linebackers. All you need is a guy who can run fast and tackle. He doesn\'t have to worry about much. The MLB, on the other hand, has to take on blockers, shed blocks, and get to the ball carrier. He must also be fast enough to cover in the passing game. It\'s much easier to find a good OLB than a MLB. Now, you keep on wanting to talk about these BIG linebackers whose only job it is to stuff the run. Well, hardly anyone is using those guys anymore!
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-01-2005, 09:13 AM	#5
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) But at least its not yet another AB arguement. Or will it be? Wow Danno. You seem to be the only one who can\'t let that go. You get what you want and you still poke your hand in the fire. Obsess much?

03-01-2005, 09:25 AM	#6
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) There aren\'t too many here that weren\'t beat down by the AB Wars of 2003-2004. You get what you want And what was it that Danno got, exactly?

03-01-2005, 09:43 AM	#7
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) And what was it that Danno got, exactly? Pretty much every AB discussion, or offense discussion in general, Danno felt was a waste of time cause we were discussing the wrong positions and the wrong side of the ball. Now mainly ALL of the talk has been on defense, and LBs in particular, and it has been very interesting, and he still has to poke at the AB debate. SO he got what he was begging for, yet he is the only one who can\'t let it go.

03-01-2005, 10:06 AM	#8
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) This is where you stretch it. Just because plays funnel back toward the middle doesn\'t mean its the most important position. In fact, it would appear that the MLB typically requires the least amount of atheleticism of the 3 backers. Danno -- The WLB is a guy who makes a lot of plays. He\'s also the guy, out of all 3 linebackers, who has less blockers to take on. He\'s pretty much free to roam around and make plays. The WLB is mostly unaccouted for. The MLB, on the other hand, is usually met by a fullback or an offensive lineman and must be physical enough to shed those blocks and get to the ball carrier. He also must be fast enough to cover in the passing game. Both the OLB and the MLB need to have enough speed to cover in the passing game. Both must be able to tackle. But, the middle linebacker needs to be stronger to be able to shed blocks. And I just cut and pasted the write up on the importance of the positions. That wasn\'t me who said it..... Here\'s the article: http://www.redeyesports.com/Breakingdownadefense.htm
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-01-2005, 10:07 AM	#9
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,747	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) And what was it that Danno got, exactly? Pretty much every AB discussion, or offense discussion in general, Danno felt was a waste of time cause we were discussing the wrong positions and the wrong side of the ball. Now mainly ALL of the talk has been on defense, and LBs in particular, and it has been very interesting, and he still has to poke at the AB debate. SO he got what he was begging for, yet he is the only one who can\'t let it go. I was just poking fun. Lighten up dude! Having AB withdrawals? Maybe I shoulda

03-01-2005, 10:09 AM	#10
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Saints' linebackers (all of 'em) I doubt that many here believe that AB is the answer at QB, despite what Danno says. I respect Danno\'s opinion, but honestly, I\'m not sold either. But the AB threads were some of the longest, most volatile subjects we\'ve had on this board, with many posters angering one another continuously. I\'ve seen political debates that didn\'t have as much heart. This goes out to everyone at B&G.net. You don\'t have to agree with someone\'s opinion to respect what they are saying. Know that we have the most knowledgeable Saints\' fan base on the net. Give respect, and you will most certainly receive it. We\'re all guilty of blowing our tops and unloading on someone, I am as guilty as anyone here. Just let posts roll once and a while, don\'t feel like you have to constantly kidney punch someone into submission. [Edited on 1/3/2005 by BlackandBlue]
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?