Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees?

voodooido · 04-26-2016, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

I know what you were talking about. You are the one that couldn't understand the meaning of my post. What I was pointing out was that you cannot look at a contract as a snapshot. Yes, 30 million of the 100 million hits this season, but over the term of the contract he makes less per year than any of those QB's. We have floated through the first four years with Brees collecting far less on average than any of those other QB's.

But that is all moot as this year's potential cap hit can and will be mitigated by an extension after the draft. It is NOT Brees' last year as you put it.

Now who is the

Good Lord, the past years mean nothing to the 30 million cap hit this year. Again, HE IS MAKING 5.5 MILLION MORE THAN ANY QB THIS YEAR. Manning is at 24.5 million. I don't give a crap about years in the past. His hit this year has kept the Saints from bringing in a Guard, WR, CB, Safety, A Kicker that is worth keeping and a DE. I could go on and on about what his cap hit is doing to us THIS YEAR.

AsylumGuido · 04-26-2016, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by voodooido

Good Lord, the past years mean nothing to the 30 million cap hit this year. Again, HE IS MAKING 5.5 MILLION MORE THAN ANY QB THIS YEAR. Manning is at 24.5 million. I don't give a crap about years in the past. His hit this year has kept the Saints from bringing in a Guard, WR, CB, Safety, A Kicker that is worth keeping and a DE. I could go on and on about what his cap hit is doing to us THIS YEAR.

That's where you are totally wrong. That $30 million figure is meaningless. It can be turned into a $10 figure with the finalizing of a contract extension. If the Saints front office felt like there was a player worthy of making a major move in free agency they would have already finished the Brees deal. What you don't get is that there was nothing out there on the open market that did not have the potential to turn into another Browner disaster. You are hung up on the fictitious $30 million that is in no way causing any sort of cap strain. On the contrary, it is basically a reserve account that can be tapped whenever the need arises.

As I have been preaching for the past two months, or more, there is no reason whatsoever to tap that account until after the draft. Why waste it on stupid free agent moves?

AsylumGuido · 04-26-2016, 09:38 AM

In addition, Brees hasn't made a penny this season. You are stating that he makes $5.5M more than any other QB this year. Once again ... wrong. Players only get paid during the regular season, so until the first game of the season their contracts have little bearing. You have no idea what his actual annual salary is going to be until September. Until then the $30 million figure that you are hung up on means nothing.

halloween 65 · 04-26-2016, 05:30 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

That's where you are totally wrong. That $30 million figure is meaningless. It can be turned into a $10 figure with the finalizing of a contract extension. If the Saints front office felt like there was a player worthy of making a major move in free agency they would have already finished the Brees deal. What you don't get is that there was nothing out there on the open market that did not have the potential to turn into another Browner disaster. You are hung up on the fictitious $30 million that is in no way causing any sort of cap strain. On the contrary, it is basically a reserve account that can be tapped whenever the need arises.

As I have been preaching for the past two months, or more, there is no reason whatsoever to tap that account until after the draft. Why waste it on stupid free agent moves?

And how many years is this contract extenion suppose to be? 1year? 2 years? 3years?4 years? And what type of cap hit do we have with each year after a contract extention is given? He's not young and I don't think it's smart to keep ransoming the farm at his age. A 4 year puts him at 42, that would be insane?

AsylumGuido · 04-26-2016, 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

And how many years is this contract extenion suppose to be? 1year? 2 years? 3years?4 years? And what type of cap hit do we have with each year after a contract extention is given? He's not young and I don't think it's smart to keep ransoming the farm at his age. A 4 year puts him at 42, that would be insane?

It would have been insane 10 years ago. QB's are so well protected these days and they take so much better care of themselves that their expected playing careers can easily be several years longer than the previous averages.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 04-26-2016, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by voodooido

Good Lord, the past years mean nothing to the 30 million cap hit this year.

Except that it actually does.

Again, HE IS MAKING 5.5 MILLION MORE THAN ANY QB THIS YEAR. Manning is at 24.5 million.

And this is Brees' fault exactly how? It's a contract that both parties agreed to. A contract that is specifically designed to never go into the last year of. See that is easy, simply look at the difference of the cap and the dead money. Any year the cap is less than the dead money is a year the team expects to pay the cap hit. All other years are a restructure or cut year. With Brees the first 4 years of the contract were upside down. Not the last year. If the Saints choose to go into the last year of this contract, then exactly how is this Brees' problem?

I don't give a crap about years in the past.

So you are saying that you don't give a crap about Brees being the QB for this franchise then? That in fact the Saints should have let him go in 2012 instead of giving him an extension?

All NFL contracts are about cap management. Contracts are cap friendly early and cap difficult at the end. The point is to give cap relief while it's clear that the player is worth paying, putting off paying the piper until the end of the contract.

But this is a situation where the player has lived up to, or outplayed the contract. It's time to pay the piper.

You do know that the point is moot. It became moot on February 10th when $10+ million of Brees' 2016 salary became guaranteed. Up until then the dead money was $10 million while the cap hit was $30 million. So clearly that is a cut or extend situation. Even with the additional $10 million on the books, the cap hit still outpaces the dead money by $10 million. Given that let's look at the Saints options:

1. Pay Brees his $20 million salary this year with the $30 million cap hit, and roll the dice after the season that they can find a way to retain his services or start over.

2. Cut Brees now, eat the $20 million cap hit already on the books, and start over.

3. Extend Brees at somewhere near market value and spread out the cap hit over 3-4 more years.

So which path do you choose?

His hit this year has kept the Saints from bringing in a Guard, WR, CB, Safety, A Kicker that is worth keeping and a DE. I could go on and on about what his cap hit is doing to us THIS YEAR.

That's on the team, not the player. The whole point of a whopping $30 million cap hit, which BTW was exacerbated by Brees' $5.2 million restructure last year, is to get the team to come to the table and figure out something reasonable for the next 3-4 years.

Brees has outplayed his current contract. He has put up top 3 HOF numbers for the last 4 years. If he didn't, he'd already be gone and the team would have $20+ million more to spend on those priorities you outlined.

So to summarize, neither you nor the Saints can have it both ways. There's no way to have a HOF elite QB and pay journeyman money for it.

The difference is that the Saints do understand that. Which is why they will either pay the $30 million this year, and negotiate a new contract next year, or they will extend Brees 3-4 more years at close to market (which is nearly $23 million a year now) and free up some more cap dollars now.

I just find it fascinating how the player gets blamed for living up to their contract. Or how the team is blamed for actually getting a good deal over a 5 year contract.

SFIAH

AsylumGuido · 04-26-2016, 10:23 AM

What he said.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 04-26-2016, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by voodooido

Good Lord, the past years mean nothing to the 30 million cap hit this year. Again, HE IS MAKING 5.5 MILLION MORE THAN ANY QB THIS YEAR. Manning is at 24.5 million. I don't give a crap about years in the past. His hit this year has kept the Saints from bringing in a Guard, WR, CB, Safety, A Kicker that is worth keeping and a DE. I could go on and on about what his cap hit is doing to us THIS YEAR.

A cap number makes no sense in isolation because it's a cumulative charge over the life of the contract. Brees signed a 5 year, $100 million extension in 2012. It's a $20 million per year contract, which is barely middling in today's NFL QB dollars. He's been paid $70 of those dollars with $40 million signing bonus and $30 million in salary over 4 years. The Saints backloaded the last year of the contract, then added another $2.6 million to the last year in a restructure.

He is certainly not making more than other QBs this year. It's just that their contracts are newer so the big cap hits haven't started yet.

SFIAH

04-26-2016, 08:52 AM	#1
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,819	Re: Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido I know what you were talking about. You are the one that couldn't understand the meaning of my post. What I was pointing out was that you cannot look at a contract as a snapshot. Yes, 30 million of the 100 million hits this season, but over the term of the contract he makes less per year than any of those QB's. We have floated through the first four years with Brees collecting far less on average than any of those other QB's. But that is all moot as this year's potential cap hit can and will be mitigated by an extension after the draft. It is NOT Brees' last year as you put it. Now who is the Good Lord, the past years mean nothing to the 30 million cap hit this year. Again, HE IS MAKING 5.5 MILLION MORE THAN ANY QB THIS YEAR. Manning is at 24.5 million. I don't give a crap about years in the past. His hit this year has kept the Saints from bringing in a Guard, WR, CB, Safety, A Kicker that is worth keeping and a DE. I could go on and on about what his cap hit is doing to us THIS YEAR.
voodooido 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 2,819

04-26-2016, 09:34 AM	#2
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,472	Re: Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees? Originally Posted by voodooido Good Lord, the past years mean nothing to the 30 million cap hit this year. Again, HE IS MAKING 5.5 MILLION MORE THAN ANY QB THIS YEAR. Manning is at 24.5 million. I don't give a crap about years in the past. His hit this year has kept the Saints from bringing in a Guard, WR, CB, Safety, A Kicker that is worth keeping and a DE. I could go on and on about what his cap hit is doing to us THIS YEAR. That's where you are totally wrong. That $30 million figure is meaningless. It can be turned into a $10 figure with the finalizing of a contract extension. If the Saints front office felt like there was a player worthy of making a major move in free agency they would have already finished the Brees deal. What you don't get is that there was nothing out there on the open market that did not have the potential to turn into another Browner disaster. You are hung up on the fictitious $30 million that is in no way causing any sort of cap strain. On the contrary, it is basically a reserve account that can be tapped whenever the need arises. As I have been preaching for the past two months, or more, there is no reason whatsoever to tap that account until after the draft. Why waste it on stupid free agent moves? SaintFanInATLHELL, Rugby Saint II and Audiotom like this.

04-26-2016, 09:38 AM	#3
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,472	Re: Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees? In addition, Brees hasn't made a penny this season. You are stating that he makes $5.5M more than any other QB this year. Once again ... wrong. Players only get paid during the regular season, so until the first game of the season their contracts have little bearing. You have no idea what his actual annual salary is going to be until September. Until then the $30 million figure that you are hung up on means nothing.

04-26-2016, 05:30 PM	#4
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees? Originally Posted by AsylumGuido That's where you are totally wrong. That $30 million figure is meaningless. It can be turned into a $10 figure with the finalizing of a contract extension. If the Saints front office felt like there was a player worthy of making a major move in free agency they would have already finished the Brees deal. What you don't get is that there was nothing out there on the open market that did not have the potential to turn into another Browner disaster. You are hung up on the fictitious $30 million that is in no way causing any sort of cap strain. On the contrary, it is basically a reserve account that can be tapped whenever the need arises. As I have been preaching for the past two months, or more, there is no reason whatsoever to tap that account until after the draft. Why waste it on stupid free agent moves? And how many years is this contract extenion suppose to be? 1year? 2 years? 3years?4 years? And what type of cap hit do we have with each year after a contract extention is given? He's not young and I don't think it's smart to keep ransoming the farm at his age. A 4 year puts him at 42, that would be insane?

04-26-2016, 08:53 PM	#5
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,472	Re: Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees? Originally Posted by halloween 65 And how many years is this contract extenion suppose to be? 1year? 2 years? 3years?4 years? And what type of cap hit do we have with each year after a contract extention is given? He's not young and I don't think it's smart to keep ransoming the farm at his age. A 4 year puts him at 42, that would be insane? It would have been insane 10 years ago. QB's are so well protected these days and they take so much better care of themselves that their expected playing careers can easily be several years longer than the previous averages.

04-26-2016, 10:19 AM	#6
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,781	Re: Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees? Originally Posted by voodooido Good Lord, the past years mean nothing to the 30 million cap hit this year. Except that it actually does. Again, HE IS MAKING 5.5 MILLION MORE THAN ANY QB THIS YEAR. Manning is at 24.5 million. And this is Brees' fault exactly how? It's a contract that both parties agreed to. A contract that is specifically designed to never go into the last year of. See that is easy, simply look at the difference of the cap and the dead money. Any year the cap is less than the dead money is a year the team expects to pay the cap hit. All other years are a restructure or cut year. With Brees the first 4 years of the contract were upside down. Not the last year. If the Saints choose to go into the last year of this contract, then exactly how is this Brees' problem? I don't give a crap about years in the past. So you are saying that you don't give a crap about Brees being the QB for this franchise then? That in fact the Saints should have let him go in 2012 instead of giving him an extension? All NFL contracts are about cap management. Contracts are cap friendly early and cap difficult at the end. The point is to give cap relief while it's clear that the player is worth paying, putting off paying the piper until the end of the contract. But this is a situation where the player has lived up to, or outplayed the contract. It's time to pay the piper. You do know that the point is moot. It became moot on February 10th when $10+ million of Brees' 2016 salary became guaranteed. Up until then the dead money was $10 million while the cap hit was $30 million. So clearly that is a cut or extend situation. Even with the additional $10 million on the books, the cap hit still outpaces the dead money by $10 million. Given that let's look at the Saints options: 1. Pay Brees his $20 million salary this year with the $30 million cap hit, and roll the dice after the season that they can find a way to retain his services or start over. 2. Cut Brees now, eat the $20 million cap hit already on the books, and start over. 3. Extend Brees at somewhere near market value and spread out the cap hit over 3-4 more years. So which path do you choose? His hit this year has kept the Saints from bringing in a Guard, WR, CB, Safety, A Kicker that is worth keeping and a DE. I could go on and on about what his cap hit is doing to us THIS YEAR. That's on the team, not the player. The whole point of a whopping $30 million cap hit, which BTW was exacerbated by Brees' $5.2 million restructure last year, is to get the team to come to the table and figure out something reasonable for the next 3-4 years. Brees has outplayed his current contract. He has put up top 3 HOF numbers for the last 4 years. If he didn't, he'd already be gone and the team would have $20+ million more to spend on those priorities you outlined. So to summarize, neither you nor the Saints can have it both ways. There's no way to have a HOF elite QB and pay journeyman money for it. The difference is that the Saints do understand that. Which is why they will either pay the $30 million this year, and negotiate a new contract next year, or they will extend Brees 3-4 more years at close to market (which is nearly $23 million a year now) and free up some more cap dollars now. I just find it fascinating how the player gets blamed for living up to their contract. Or how the team is blamed for actually getting a good deal over a 5 year contract. SFIAH AsylumGuido, Rugby Saint II, BusDriver and 2 others like this.
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

04-26-2016, 10:23 AM	#7
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,472	Re: Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees? What he said.

04-26-2016, 05:37 PM	#8
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,781	Re: Looks like the Norman situation opened some issues with Brees? Originally Posted by voodooido Good Lord, the past years mean nothing to the 30 million cap hit this year. Again, HE IS MAKING 5.5 MILLION MORE THAN ANY QB THIS YEAR. Manning is at 24.5 million. I don't give a crap about years in the past. His hit this year has kept the Saints from bringing in a Guard, WR, CB, Safety, A Kicker that is worth keeping and a DE. I could go on and on about what his cap hit is doing to us THIS YEAR. A cap number makes no sense in isolation because it's a cumulative charge over the life of the contract. Brees signed a 5 year, $100 million extension in 2012. It's a $20 million per year contract, which is barely middling in today's NFL QB dollars. He's been paid $70 of those dollars with $40 million signing bonus and $30 million in salary over 4 years. The Saints backloaded the last year of the contract, then added another $2.6 million to the last year in a restructure. He is certainly not making more than other QBs this year. It's just that their contracts are newer so the big cap hits haven't started yet. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

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