Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

And water is wet, Captain Obvious Holder...

I will be so glad when next week comes and there are actual players and actual plays to talk and write about instead of stating the... obvious.

SFIAH

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Thats new news to NOBODY

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

The majority of articles written in local papers this time of year are directed at the casual fan, not the obsessed fans that live on message boards.

Its a great re-cap for the fan who only pays attention 6 to 8 months out of the year.

Most Saints fans couldn't name 3 new players on this year's team.

Holder didn't write this for us guys.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

It fails to address exactly how long a piece of string is and how high is up!

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Best Line "Dumping Brandon Browner instantly improves the Saints defense in the secondary. Anyone with a pulse can recognize that."

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

That notwithstanding, it's still not real smart to title it something obvious. It's like having an article titled "Saints win game because they scored more points." It's obvious on its face.

Just a simple title of "X ways the Saints defense will improve in 2016..." would have covered the topic.

SFIAH

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

They will also be sunk if their defense takes two steps up and our offense takes one step back.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Not sure that's the case. We have the 2010 season as a sample. The offense dropped from 1st to 11th in scoring from 2009 while the defense rose from the low 20s to the top 10. Team ended up 11-5, which while ending up a small step back, certainly wasn't a complete disaster.

Also there's no substantive evidence that the offense is going to be significantly different that it's been in the past. As a scientist I'm a strong believer that past performance mitigated by changes are a strong predictor of future expectations. Considering the performance of the offense last year, coupled with what are effectively minor changes in the offseason, there's no reason to believe that the offense will be much different than it's been in the past. Frankly if the offense was really going to take a step back it should have been last year when Graham was traded. He was a major cog in how the offense operated. But it didn't miss a beat.

SFIAH

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

I agree with every word. It goes to show how important a D really is and how Graham was just a chess piece in Paytons O.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

I can't take another loosing season.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Um, yes it did skip a beat. Scoring most points in the second half does not mean not skipping a beat. I swear if we are like up 13-10 against Oakland in the first half I am going to be disappointed.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

And we also had one of the easier schedules too. We could have lost at SF, at home against Sea, against Pittsburgh, at Cincinatti easily. Drew was playing hurt though. Still, I do not want to have a season like this again. This would be like 2013.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

I'd be perfectly happy with that as a halftime score. It means that the defense is holding its own against a pretty good offense.

The Saints offense isn't going to score 14 points a quarter every quarter. Halftime scores of 17-7, 14-7, or even 13-10 represent a good foundation towards winning a game.

SFIAH

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

The raiders are not a very good offense yet. Carr is still a bit green. Drew only getting one TD in a home opener is NOT representative of the Drew that first came to NO. We're supposed to be special at home. Against anybody. We sent messages like that to NE and GB in these kind of games. I can see with my own eyes the offense is not scoring the way it used to. We don't get off to so many big offensive starts anymore. That cannot be attributed to Drew's age. Not punching it in against Detroit, Philadelphia are not good signs of the offense still going strong.

I feel that the only way saints will win the division not improving the offense will be a Cam season ending injury.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Dude is in his third year. No longer green.
We're talking about the first half right? That's what I based my discussion on. Also I was focused on the defense. A 13 point half means that you've driven and scored the ball 3 times. While it certainly isn't perfect because at least one of the FG should be a TD, it isn't a total wipeout either IMHO.

Part of that is attributable to the really really really awful defense too. A defense that for the last two years couldn't get out of its way and get off the field.

Brees threw for 32 TD passes last year, an average a bit above 2 per game. The defense gave up an NFL record 45 TD passes. That's nearly 3 per game.

What you are remembering is a team that played complementary football. A defense that would get the ball back for the offense giving more time and more possessions. A defense that would take the ball away giving more opportunities and a shorter field. A quick strike offense that would run up the score making the defense's job easier. Just think of the number of times last year the Saints offense had to slog 80 yards down the field to score. That's where that dominance you crave disappeared to because complementary football like that hasn't existed for at least a couple of years.

But it doesn't take much to turn it around. We saw an example 3 years ago when the Saints defense finished high up in the rankings for yards, points, and turnovers.

But right now I just don't think that it's a good idea to pin hopes on past dominance. While it is possible that the defense will surprise like 2009 and 2013, it's more likely it's going to be a work in progress. But I do believe that all the defense needs to do is provide a bit of drag to the opposition to change the tenor of more games.

Improve it exactly how? To me this feels like the flip side of the constant argument I have with my brother, who wants the Saints to run the ball like LSU does with Fournette. First it's not going to happen, and second it's unclear exactly how doing so helps the situation.

In both of the Panther's games last year the Saints had enough offensive firepower to win the game. But you cannot expect to win games when you give up 27 and 41 points in a game. You simply cannot win shootouts with teams who have defenses that can put some drag on the opposition when your defense cannot.

There's no reason to worry about the Panthers. The Saints just need to take care of their own business.

SFIAH

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

It doesn't matter who the QB is when they face our defense.

I personally think he is a very good QB with not enough help, we let Jameis Winston and Marcus mariota torch us, Winston threw multiple interceptions the week prior and then lit us up.

Until our D proves otherwise, we are a below .500 team.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Based on last years 7-9 record I say 8-8 is the starting place, just with DA at the helm.

Concerns? loss of Watson and a bunch of young WRs. points per game should take a hit

I am still at 8-8 for the saints before the season starts with DA at the helm.

Concern? Loss of Hau'oli and the depth at DE a huge question mark.

I am still at 8-8 for the saints before the season starts with DA at the helm.

Getting the idea? DA is the key

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

I think i get the idea but do you mean 8-8 or 9-7? Lol only 16 games buddy

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

playoffs baby lmao thanks for catching that

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

If our offense wasn't a issue then why did we draft Thomas and sign four or five olinemen after the draft?

Yeah the defense can get the ball back but short fields? Even when we got them it didn't matter last year. Maybe getting stops is one thing but still gotta be able to score at home in two of the first four possessions.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

That's not indicative of a problem. That's simply either taking the best player available or introducing new players into a system in the hope of finding a quality player. If you go back and read a lot of projections before the draft, many analyst had Thomas going in the first round. The Saints got him at 47.
Can you point out an example or two?

SFIAH

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

The saints could go toe to toe in back and forth shootouts with Jacksonville and Green Bay at home in 2007 and 2008. If going 80 yards is the issue then maybe the real problem is special teams. The texans scored 32 points in 11 and Drew scored 40 to win. That is indicative of a powerful offense.

You are acting like the offense was fine last year and that the oline did not have enough problems to affect Drew. My guess is you are pro-Streiff. But guard play and Streif were liabilities last year for the oline. The offense would stall at the wrong time.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

This thread is so DUH! I'm gonna try to disagree. Last year we went 7-9 tight? #2 O, #32 D. Colby Fleener alone will vastly prove the offense. Add all the rookie offensive weapons we got and we could easily go 10-6 and make the playoffs. There were at least 3 games last year that couldve gone either way. Cooks was 3" from catching the winning TD vs Carolina. If we could find a game breaking returner and pair some great special team play with the best O in the league, it's possible. Of course, if we have the #2 ranked O again and the D climbs to say 15th, we definitely got a shot.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Breaux, Lewis, Williams, and Swann should be an improvement inthe secondary. Should be...I do worry about Swann and the concussions. That is usually a death sentence, but let's keep fingers crossed.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

I am guessing we are hoping zach can gives us one more year...I am not convinced, dude looked on his last leg last year, but let's keep fingers crossed.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Note that neither of the 2007 nor 2008 teams had a winning record.
Special teams is a part of it. The other part is that turnovers contribute to shorter fields too. That's a defensive issue.
It is also indicative of a porous defense that gave up 32 points.

Worrying about the Saints offense in the last 2 years is like worrying about a hangnail on the toe of a leg that's been blown off at the knee. There are much bigger issues to worry about.

There have been 50 Superbowls. There has been exactly one Superbowl champion that didn't have a top 10 scoring defense. Offenses have been all over the place, but having a defense that can stop people is a consistent theme in playing championship football.

The Saints were last in defensive scoring last year, by nearly 2 PPG giving up nearly 30 PPG. 476 points. The Saints have never had a winning record in the last 10 years when the defense has given up more than 350 points in a season, no matter how the offense did.

So compared to the two of the worst defenses in the history of the NFL, then yes the offense is fine.

The difference between the two of us is likely exhibited in the Giants game last year. You probably think that was a great game because the offense scored 52 points and 7 TDs. I thought it was a total debacle because the defense couldn't make a stop and gave up 49 points.

As of Strief, he is servicable but cannot handle elite edge rushing talent anymore. That can be managed with chipping help from backs or keeping in a tight end to help. But it's unrealistic that Brees is going to have a 7 step drop with 5 in the pattern and Strief keeping elite rushers like JJ Watt or Von Miller from getting around the edge and getting to Brees. Of course there are probably only 5 right tackles in the league that even have a chance of doing that.

So to summarize, an all pro offense with no defense doesn't win championships. An excellent offense coupled with defense that can get off the field and take the ball away can. The Saints were the latter combination in 2009. They were nothing like that in 2015. There is no improvement on the offense, no receiver, no lineman, no back, nothing, that would significantly change the dynamic from the last 2 years. The only thing that will lift the Saints out from 7-9 or 8-8 is getting the defense down to around 21 points of scoring defense and top 10 in turnovers.

So that's why I sigh when I hear "replace Strief", "draft Treadwell", "sign Bolden", "get a veteran mentor for the receivers" or frankly any other offensive change that somehow is going to make the Saints a championship squad, when there's is 10 years of evidence that it makes no real difference.

SFIAH

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Let's compare last year's offensive stats to 2014's Green Bay, Dallas, and Indy.

As for Fleener, he should give us more quickness but it is debatable if he has a real advantage over Watson. Also we don't have the protection to really throw deep. Payton said himself that speed is a bonus, he wants physical ability.

Yes Cooks was inches away but still the saints knew Norman was a shutdown corner and threw at him anyway. He had just shut down Hopkins the previous week and kept Robsinson in check.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

I was not on the Boldin bandwagon.

And yes I know we need defense. But how about when the defense did its part in games the last two years for the offense to do nothing? We have no big time players on defense outside a few that can withstand constantly being put back on the field. A defense being worn down and tired cannot make those plays. The offense has not been kind to the defense in recent years. The defense early last year did have moments of looking good. We allowed big plays to Zona but we kept them out of the endzone for two straight quarters only to just kick FGs. TB we were up 6-3 before things got out of hand. The defense did what it could but the offense never responded and because Drew was playing hurt. Defense then gets gassed for a q and a half and allows 23 points. Then we get back to back turnovers and force a missed FG. What do we do with these opportunities? The offense lost the first couple of games more than the defense. I'm sorry but if SP could not move the ball against Arizona to extend drives then maybe he's not the offensive genius he's been made to be. We had every opportunity to take the lead if only we had someone who could catch a deep ball.

So I guess if the defense doesn't get turnovers at the other team's 30 then the offense will be the same as it was last year.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Oh btw, the offense played the worst defenses in the league last year(giants, redskins, colts, jaguars, even titans, lions had their moments). That's not the case next year don't expect it to be easy on the other team's 25 after a turnover with C Jones, Miller, Mack, Irvin, and Bosa disrupting things. This offense better learn to win against tough defenses, which they have yet to show.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

OK- Heres the deal. Fairley and Rankins are gonna anchor the best DL in the NFL. Laurinitis is a huge upgrade for us and his play will allow Anthony to really explode. Lewis and Breaux healthy gives us the best CB duo in the NFL. Deion said that. Oh and Cam gets 12+ sacks and we win the BOWL. Who doesn't agree?

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Really...

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

you guys are a tough crowd.

In my world. football season begins tomorrow.

Re: Saints will be sunk again without an improved defense
 

Arizona
Dallas(they were a good defense)
Philadelphia
Houston

The four toughest defenses on the schedule(not including division games) and arguably the four worst offensive outputs.