Re: Pay Brees!
 

You know what? 'guido and I argue a lot, but I have to say after reading this comment that you are the one I have the least amount of respect for on this board. Calling me an idiot is classless and childish. But I'm a big boy, I can handle your name calling.

The bigger reason is that you are a complete waffler. One day you're on one side of this subject and the next day you do a complete 180. When the season starts and Drew has a bad game, you'll say that you love Drew but he might be nearing the end. So I'm not sure what makes you think you are qualified to even make a judgement against me.

And since you want to resort to nastiness, I won't stoop to your level, but I will point something out. You have shown zero ability to understand anything I have said. You're beating a dead horse, and just randomly telling anyone you disagree with that they have no clue, or in this case calling me an idiot. You don't understand any part of what I'm trying to say. All you seem to get out of it is that I'm a massive Brees hater (which is ridiculous) and therefore everything I say is just stupid, and you don't read anything else. Sound about right?

So let me make it clear, one more time, since you keep ignoring it. I'm not talking about the business aspect of what a player "deserves" or is "worth". I wouldn't pay Drew more than 25 million if it were up to me, which of course it isn't. But some have suggested that he deserves whatever he wants because of what he has meant, and blah blah. That makes me nauseated, considering what he's already made. That's why I pointed out that nothing these athletes do is so important that we should feel indebted to them and just pay whatever. I can think of people who deserve much more and don't get it. SOOOO, with that in mind I don't get caught up in what Drew has done. I appreciate what he has done. But I think if you are the Saints it might not be wise to go higher than 25 million, or to give him many years.

And here's the thing... They might not. We just don't know what kind of money is being discussed. It's purely hypothetical. All of our discussion is hypothetical. Does that make sense?

By the way, I'm not "dictating" what the Saints should spend. I'm giving my opinion. For all you know, the Saints might have the same numbers in their collective heads that I have, or close to it. Common sense tells you there is only so much you can pay any one player. Either they don't agree with his asking price, or perhaps waiting to see how he performs this year (letting him hit the open market could allow a very QB hungry team to offer Brees an astronomical number). Either way, that tells you the Saints obviously have some hang up, which makes any assumption that the Saints will automatically pay him market value a bit premature.

I live in no alternate reality or "wet dream". It was a simple side bar comment that you decided to blow up into a toxic nuclear catastrophe. Freaking chill out.

Re: Pay Brees!
 

The problem is that there's no time to do that now. The Saints are not going to be able to compete with "we need a QB stat!" teams in the open market. And honestly the Saints have made some attempts at addressing the line issues including trading for Unger and drafting Peat.

As for efficiency, Football Outsiders has a chart of QB metrics for last year:

FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Innovative Statistics, Intelligent Analysis | QUARTERBACKS 2015

Brees was ranked 3rd in total QBR and 6th and 7th respectively in DVOR and DVOA.
That argument certainly would hold water for other QBs. But Brees run for the last 10 years is unprecedented. He isn't average by any stretch of the imagination. And on QB performance, he should be at the very top of the QB pay list.

Now the Saints have been up and down over the duration of that deal. But Brees has not.
He's averaging 5000 yards passing, 36.8 TDs, and a passer rating of 99.8 from 2012 to 2015 over the current length of the contract. So other than the 19 INTs in 2012 where exactly are the "ups and downs" you refer to?
But it's clear that they are not. And even if they were prepared, as I stated before this run is unprecedented.

I found an article that mirrors our discussion and refers to Brees explicitly. Describes it as a dilemma.

https://theringer.com/nfl-new-era-ol...ed4#.w7y03lehd

The article points out this is really new territory in the NFL. There just hasn't been an elite healthy 38 year old QB near the top of the league in the free agent market before.

BTW I don't think that Brees is asking for everything in the world. But it makes no sense for him to sign a below market contract either.

I get that you don't like the market. But that dislike doesn't change it. If Brees keeps up close to the same production that he's had the last 10 years, and the Saints make the decision not to sign him, then many teams next year will see Brees for his production: A HOF caliber 38 year old QB.

SFIAH

Re: Pay Brees!
 

The difference in all of your examples is that each and every one of those teams carried a top 5 defense. The Saints defense in the last two years has been so bad that literally rank 35 out of 32 teams in many categories. Historically bad. 3-13 or 2-14 bad. Yet the Saints went 7-9 and amazingly actually had a chance to make the playoffs in 2014.

And I think you are still missing a critical point... moving on..

I call BS on your tons of yards comments. Brees has been a master of being efficient completing the ball and having a high yards per attempt. There is a reason that Brees has 4 of the 8 5000 yard seasons and why no other QB has more than 1. Even in today's NFL if 5000 yards was simple then a ton of QBs would attain it.

Back to the critical point, which is Brees is still playing at an elite level. So preparing for life after Brees really isn't the crucial item. Preparing to support Brees in another SuperBowl run soon certainly should be.

SFIAH

Re: Pay Brees!
 

I didn't say that Brees is average. Refer to my most recent reply to you, and I have addressed most of your points. I merely brought up that what is considered "value" has been more about panic an over paying mediocrity than anything to do with production. I understand that my dislike for the market won't change it, and I didn't suggest that anyone will change it, regardless of my opinion. Again, it's going over that market that I think would be unwise, and it's what some have suggested that not only we COULD, but SHOULD do. And obviously I disagree with that.

In reference to the ups and downs, yes, I am talking about turnovers for one. It's not just INT's. He fumbles a lot as well, and also we throw a lot more short yardage plays in place of running the ball, because for much the past several years we can't run. That has kept his yardage total up and lead to lower yards per attempt and ultimately is not leading to more points. He's also been very good a fair amount of that time, hence why I say UPS and downs. I'm not telling you he's been awful.

I'm truly not sure how this small point on my part has turned into two or three pages of discussion.

Re: Pay Brees!
 

Yes, I know the defense was bad. And I know that those other teams had top defenses. Why do you think I brought them up as examples? That was my point.

It means that you don't have to panic because there aren't QB's on the market. Build a freaking defense, build an offensive line. Be physical up front like all championship teams are. Be creative. For all the money they pay Brees, and for all his stats, this team misses the playoffs just as often as they make it. I'm not blaming that on Drew. I'm illuminating the fact that obviously there is something missing, and perhaps a different philosophy is needed. It's merely a thought. We can win with Drew if they can keep him upright, have some balance on offense and stop some teams on the other side. But that's obvious.

Unfortunately, they don't keep him upright enough, they don't run very effectively, aside from a couple of good games, and they don't stop anybody. If they can't afford to pay him, they could theoretically fix some of the other issues and be competitive that way. I'd rather have Drew, but I'm trying to be real. I think he stays, but it's not all about him. This is more reflective of my lack of confidence in the organization in recent years. When you go 7-9 three out of four years (yes I know one was without Payton, but that team still should have been a little better) and make several bad mistakes in free agency and the draft, you've clearly got some issues.

You brought up the fact that they traded for Unger and drafted Peat. But those were both last off-season. We had a full year to see how well that worked out. And Unger was good. We know Armstead is good. I never liked the Peat selection, and not only was he bad last year, I haven't heard glowing things about him this off-season, either. The revolving door at guard has been terrible, and Strief is a decent backup who is still having to start.

But this is what we're going to have this year, again. And I'm not sure what you're going on about with the 5,000 yards argument. No, only a couple have done that other than Brees, but a TON of 4,500 to 4,800 type seasons are being thrown around by several QB's.

Yes Drew has been one of the best throughout his career in accuracy and yards per attempt. I didn't say he wasn't! Stop being offended by any comment that doesn't kiss his butt. Honestly. It's a little ridiculous how worked up some of you get about Drew. I'm trying hard to be patient and not get angry, but this is just going over the top.

He has been among the best. However, I see more and more dink and dunk every year. And it is leading to middle of the pack in points. I pointed that out in the last post and you completely ignored it. Instead you went right to the stats. So the defense makes us score less points? The Saints averaged more points per game in 2002 with Aaron Brooks AND a bad defense. And went 9-7, not 7-9. AND that was still before many of the wuss rules had come out and made the game what it is today.

So please, let's not act like many of the stats we see today aren't inflated. Drew was once THE best in the league, in my opinion, and is still one of the better. But we're not winning. I feel better about this years team, I truly do. But I'd like to see some consistency built into this organization. Not just "hey, let's keep maxing out on Drew and hope that works out". And I don't know that Drew is asking top dollar. I'm just a bored fan having a discussion with all knowing people.

Re: Pay Brees!
 

I am a consistent supporter of Brees, I don't waffle. Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about or you're making it up. He hasn't slowed down a bit. Matter of fact he had more than 4800 yards last year and he missed a game. He had a staggering 68% completion rate and threw 32 td's to 11 int's. I have never once said you like or dislike Brees because I could care less. This was about what he deserves to be paid per the market.

You're certainly jealous of what athletes make and that is kind of sad. 'oh they don't deserve it wah wah." "I would do their job any day of the week, all they do is play a game, wah wah".
Yeah you can't do their job and that is why you don't earn what they do, but cry a little more about how unfair it is, and your job is more important. Boo Hoo.

Re: Pay Brees!
 

Dude go crawl back into what ever closet you came out of today. If you can't think of a single constructive and half adult thing to say, then you are wasting everyone's time.

I didn't say anything I do is more or less important. I said there are more important things than what athletes do. That's a fact. Without taking into considering anything to do with an inflated market, which has nothing to do with anything I'm talking about, you cannot tell me that football players are worth what they make. I don't care if it's fair or unfair. I have no jealousy towards them. I watch and pull for these guys every freaking year. I know they will always make more than everyone else, and that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when people start acting like taking a little less is going to kill the guy. I'm not even saying he should take less than market value. I don't want to see it go way over.

But let's say he did take less. Is he going to be hurting from that? I always hear the argument "you can't compare what an athlete does, or makes, with regular jobs". Well, that goes both ways. An athlete taking a little less won't hurt him like it would an average person. You can't afford to take less when you aren't making that much to begin with. And you aren't working for the sake of your co-workers. They aren't your teammates. You're there to do your job and there is no trophy at the end.

If an athlete wants to win bad enough he can afford to take less, and it has happened before. But I won't sit here and expect that. They are fortunate enough to be in a position of power and leverage. I don't think it's evil. Though there are certainly some greedy people out there, being rich doesn't make you automatically greedy.

Just don't tell me tossing a football around is worth hundreds of millions of dollars. "they're worth whatever someone wants to pay him"... blah blah blah. Let me break this down for you: If you needed a new car to get around and work but you decided to buy a house instead, you would consider the house worth whatever you paid for it, because it seemed like the thing to do. But then you realize that you are having a hard time paying the bills and you still don't have a car to get around. You might wish you had gotten a car and an apartment, saved some money, then bought the house. But it's too late.

You thought the house was worth it, but that doesn't mean it actually was. It turns out that in reality, you just made a dumb decision.

Now I'm not saying extending Drew would be dumb. Not at all. As long as the price is reasonable. Maybe it will be. I guess we'll all find out. I'm not worried about it. I know that whatever happens will happen, and there's nothing any of us can do about it. Maybe we'll go 7-9 again and we can all talk about how great our offense is.

Re: Pay Brees!
 

You make exceptionally good points with alot of validation and things are clearly well spoken. Some of the questions that you have ask can't be answered by anyone other than the Saints FO as I think you know. But hypothetically Brees might command another huge contract although it may be from another team but one main thing he wouldn't have is Paytons system. Brees has executed Paytons system like a true field general for the Saints there is no denying that. I do feel after this season even if Brees plays at a high level we move on with another qb. because of his age. I know it's apples and oranges but I look at how GB did with Farve, he was still playing at a high level for 2 years after he left there although the 2 systems he played in (Jets and Vikings) were totally different, one suited his stye of play the other didn't. I believe if he leaves there will be a dropoff to a point in production from a new qb. but it would be kind of unrealistic to think someone could just step in and match Brees type of numbers but it falls on Payton and his system to adjust with a new gunslinger under center. Growing pains will happen and at times might not be pretty. I also feel that next season with a couple of good G, a young qb. with a stout front line coupled with the insane firepower we have could have a pretty decent year under C. So not paying Brees a 3 or 4 year top dollar contract might not be so bad with Payton at the helm. You and I both know until the D gets fixed paying Brees or getting a new qb. want matter. Although a young qb. has more time to wait things out.

Re: Pay Brees!
 

WEll now you're altering the argument and saying he should take less in order for the team to do better.

According to OTC Drew is the 11th most best special paid QB in the league. So how far down the list should he go? Why are other teams able to be successful, I don't understand? What's that you say...they don't have 30 million in dead money, I see, thank you. So Drew's salary is not the issue, that would be correct.

Quarterback Contracts and Salaries | Over The Cap



There's more important jobs out there, you guys don't deserve it, Tito get me a tissue.

Re: Pay Brees!
 

First of all, I'm not sure who the "we" is you are talking about, but I know that Brees led the NFL in deep passing accuracy in 2016. So, lets say that does drop off in the next three or four years. Chances are he would still be in the top fourth of the league and be worth every penny.

As for the Manning example, he had suffered a severe neck injury and was physically breaking down in other areas. Nobody would ever compare the athleticism pf Manning to Brees. Brees has always been far more athletic. Nothing indicates a sudden collapse as was expected from Manning.