Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects

xan · 03-09-2005, 04:55 PM

From GumboBC:

Playcalling is largely dependent on personnel. We can\'t run the same plays as the Patriots, Colts, or Vikings. Instead, our play calling is dependent on Brooks, Deuce, Joe Horn, offensive line, etc., ect.

Not that I\'m being argumentative here, but all three teams run essentially the same offense, have the same basic modified West Coast Offense, which the Saints run. We have an All Pro running back, an All Pro Wide-out, and two cheetah fast second/third receivers. What about not being able to play call is deficient here? Are you implying that it\'s Brooks inability to run a West Coast offense that\'s the problem?

baronm · 03-09-2005, 05:10 PM

Gumbo, like haslett, willnever hold

accountable for his actions-it will always be someone else...get over it move on....

Danno · 03-09-2005, 05:15 PM

BTTT: This was a good thread gone bad.

Which units do you think will be improved in 2005?

Which units will be about the same?

Which units worse?

Better: O-line, RB/FB, D-line (barely), CB, FS,
Same: WR, TE, SS, LB
Worse: QB (only because we don\'t have a solid back-up yet)

JOESAM2002 · 03-09-2005, 05:27 PM

Good idea Danno.

GumboBC · 03-09-2005, 05:28 PM

Not that I\'m being argumentative here, but all three teams run essentially the same offense, have the same basic modified West Coast Offense, which the Saints run. We have an All Pro running back, an All Pro Wide-out, and two cheetah fast second/third receivers. What about not being able to play call is deficient here? Are you implying that it\'s Brooks inability to run a West Coast offense that\'s the problem?

Not that I\'m being argumentative here, but all three teams run essentially the same offense, have the same basic modified West Coast Offense, which the Saints run.

I don\'t agree. The Colts offense is nothing like ours. Tom Moore, offenisve coordinator for the Colts, has no background in the West Coast Offense. Moore\'s first job as offensive coordinator in the NFL was with the Steelers back in the 80\'s. He also was the offensive coordinator for the Lions when Barry Sanders was there.

The Colts offense has no charataristics of any West Coast Offense I\'ve ever seen. The Colts have an offensive philosiphy of attacking down the field in the passing game. Much more so than any West Coast Offense I\'ve ever seen. If I were gonna compare them to anybody, it would be the St. Louis Rams in their hayday. Also, Peyton is the only QB that I know of that calls his own plays. And the Colts don\'t call thier plays unitl they are at the line of scrimmage. Big big difference in our offenses.

And the Vikings sure don\'t run a West Coast Offense. The Pats run something like a WC offense though. I think.

We have an All Pro running back, an All Pro Wide-out, and two cheetah fast second/third receivers. What about not being able to play call is deficient here?

The Colts number one reciever is much better than Joe Horn. Not knocking Joe, but there\'s no comparision there. And the Colts number 2 and 3 receivers are better than ours too. And it\'s close between Edge and Deuce. But last year it wasn\'t so close. Deuce had a bad year.

Are you implying that it\'s Brooks inability to run a West Coast offense that\'s the problem?

No, that\'s not what I\'m implying. Actually, IMO, we don\'t run a West Coast Offense and never have. McCarthy himself has said so. Our offense is much like that of Green Bays with Brett Favre. Lots of deep patterns in the passing game derived from the play action running game.

The point I was trying to make is that our playcalling was very limited in 2004 due to the injury to Deuce and the poor blocking by the offensive line.

I don\'t think different playcalling is gonna help our problem areas out too much. I think better blocking and a healthy Deuce will, though.

Of course, I do think playcalling is important. I just don\'t see how that related to our offensive problems in 2004.

FrenzyFan · 03-09-2005, 06:09 PM

As FA wind closer and closer to the end, I can sum up my feelings regarding our FA activity in two words: Luke Warm.

In my estimation, our greatest need this off-season was at LB. After that DT and OT are about the same. Further down the chart would be the defensive secondary.

First the O-Line: I find it reasonable to say that our O-Line will probably be slightly improved. I find it ridiculous to say the will certainly will be or that they will be significantly better. Mayberry was a great player three seasons ago at Guard. He was all-pro and pretty much a bulldozer, blowing everyone out of the holes for the RB(s). The last time he played tackle was in 1999 and then only for a short time.

In the last two years, all he\'s been is broken. I don\'t think anyone can say that he will come in and be a good RT. I am hopeful, but I don\'t think I can call that a foregone conclusion. I have to remind myself that he was great as a Guard, average as a Tackle and has been injury prone the last two seasons.

As for the Smith signing, I liked it. That is until I heard the plan was for him to play FS. Does everyone really think that Tebucky was worse than Bellamy? It\'s a given that TJ is not worth what we are paying him. He didn\'t live up to his expectations. BUT, he led our team in tackles last year and I don\'t remember him getting burned up (at least as badly as I remember Bellamy getting burned).

The reason we kept Bellamy last year was because of his \"career\" year the season before. He was a tackling MACHINE. The guy just seemed to be everywhere. Even so, no one considered him worth much in coverage. In \'04 for whatever reason, he just wasn\'t always in the right position. He wasn\'t in on as many tackles and he still isn\'t any good in coverage.

When I think of the SS position, I think of that guy who lays the wood when R\'s catch the ball across the middle. The SS makes \'em pay, makes enemy R\'s \"hear footsteps\" when they go across the middle. That guy wasn\'t even on our team last season.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but Bellamy is a MUCH bigger problem than T\'buck.

So, in my estimation so far we haven\'t done much to address our needs.

We needed an LB - nada
We needed a DT - nada
We needed an OT - we grabbed a guard who has had injury problems.
We needed help in the secondary - we made a move for a great player and replaced the better of our two deep cover guys.

Like I said, \"Luke Warm\". Maybe we will trade Howard and get someone to compensate. Maybe we will draft well. I am still hopeful, just not buying into the idea that we\'ve done anything special so far.

Danno · 03-09-2005, 06:11 PM

We needed an OT - we grabbed a guard who has had injury problems.

I haven\'t heard of any injury problems. Did I miss something? Again?

saintswhodi · 03-09-2005, 06:12 PM

Hey, you got someone here who agrees on Bellamy. IMO, he is done.

xan · 03-09-2005, 06:22 PM

From FrenzyFan:

As for the Smith signing, I liked it. That is until I heard the plan was for him to play FS. Does everyone really think that Tebucky was worse than Bellamy? It\'s a given that TJ is not worth what we are paying him. He didn\'t live up to his expectations. BUT, he led our team in tackles last year and I don\'t remember him getting burned up (at least as badly as I remember Bellamy getting burned).

The reason we kept Bellamy last year was because of his \"career\" year the season before. He was a tackling MACHINE. The guy just seemed to be everywhere. Even so, no one considered him worth much in coverage. In \'04 for whatever reason, he just wasn\'t always in the right position. He wasn\'t in on as many tackles and he still isn\'t any good in coverage.

If you look at the stats, Bellamy has been a consistant performer in each season he\'s played with the Saints and Seattle. His tackling production was in line with each of his previous years, though he did not have an INT for the first season since he became a starter in 1995. This is probably due to the role he was asked to play in the d-scheme.

Before bashing a player, please be accurate in your assertions of production.

Again, breaking down the play-by-play, it seems like whatever the plan may be, the Saints FO and Haslett are signing players (like Bellamy) based on the relevant stats.

saintswhodi · 03-09-2005, 06:24 PM

I haven\'t heard of any injury problems. Did I miss something? Again?

Yeah, the last two years Mayberry has missed a number of games due to injury. 11 in 2003 and 4 in 2004.

03-09-2005, 04:55 PM	#21
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,371 Blog Entries: 34	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects From GumboBC: Playcalling is largely dependent on personnel. We can\'t run the same plays as the Patriots, Colts, or Vikings. Instead, our play calling is dependent on Brooks, Deuce, Joe Horn, offensive line, etc., ect. Not that I\'m being argumentative here, but all three teams run essentially the same offense, have the same basic modified West Coast Offense, which the Saints run. We have an All Pro running back, an All Pro Wide-out, and two cheetah fast second/third receivers. What about not being able to play call is deficient here? Are you implying that it\'s Brooks inability to run a West Coast offense that\'s the problem?

03-09-2005, 05:10 PM	#22
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects Gumbo, like haslett, willnever hold accountable for his actions-it will always be someone else...get over it move on....
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

03-09-2005, 05:15 PM	#23
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects BTTT: This was a good thread gone bad. Which units do you think will be improved in 2005? Which units will be about the same? Which units worse? Better: O-line, RB/FB, D-line (barely), CB, FS, Same: WR, TE, SS, LB Worse: QB (only because we don\'t have a solid back-up yet)

03-09-2005, 05:27 PM	#24
JOESAM2002 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: CRYSTAL BEACH TEXAS Posts: 4,100	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects Good idea Danno.

03-09-2005, 05:28 PM	#25
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects Not that I\'m being argumentative here, but all three teams run essentially the same offense, have the same basic modified West Coast Offense, which the Saints run. We have an All Pro running back, an All Pro Wide-out, and two cheetah fast second/third receivers. What about not being able to play call is deficient here? Are you implying that it\'s Brooks inability to run a West Coast offense that\'s the problem? Not that I\'m being argumentative here, but all three teams run essentially the same offense, have the same basic modified West Coast Offense, which the Saints run. I don\'t agree. The Colts offense is nothing like ours. Tom Moore, offenisve coordinator for the Colts, has no background in the West Coast Offense. Moore\'s first job as offensive coordinator in the NFL was with the Steelers back in the 80\'s. He also was the offensive coordinator for the Lions when Barry Sanders was there. The Colts offense has no charataristics of any West Coast Offense I\'ve ever seen. The Colts have an offensive philosiphy of attacking down the field in the passing game. Much more so than any West Coast Offense I\'ve ever seen. If I were gonna compare them to anybody, it would be the St. Louis Rams in their hayday. Also, Peyton is the only QB that I know of that calls his own plays. And the Colts don\'t call thier plays unitl they are at the line of scrimmage. Big big difference in our offenses. And the Vikings sure don\'t run a West Coast Offense. The Pats run something like a WC offense though. I think. We have an All Pro running back, an All Pro Wide-out, and two cheetah fast second/third receivers. What about not being able to play call is deficient here? The Colts number one reciever is much better than Joe Horn. Not knocking Joe, but there\'s no comparision there. And the Colts number 2 and 3 receivers are better than ours too. And it\'s close between Edge and Deuce. But last year it wasn\'t so close. Deuce had a bad year. Are you implying that it\'s Brooks inability to run a West Coast offense that\'s the problem? No, that\'s not what I\'m implying. Actually, IMO, we don\'t run a West Coast Offense and never have. McCarthy himself has said so. Our offense is much like that of Green Bays with Brett Favre. Lots of deep patterns in the passing game derived from the play action running game. The point I was trying to make is that our playcalling was very limited in 2004 due to the injury to Deuce and the poor blocking by the offensive line. I don\'t think different playcalling is gonna help our problem areas out too much. I think better blocking and a healthy Deuce will, though. Of course, I do think playcalling is important. I just don\'t see how that related to our offensive problems in 2004.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

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03-09-2005, 06:09 PM	#26
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects As FA wind closer and closer to the end, I can sum up my feelings regarding our FA activity in two words: Luke Warm. In my estimation, our greatest need this off-season was at LB. After that DT and OT are about the same. Further down the chart would be the defensive secondary. First the O-Line: I find it reasonable to say that our O-Line will probably be slightly improved. I find it ridiculous to say the will certainly will be or that they will be significantly better. Mayberry was a great player three seasons ago at Guard. He was all-pro and pretty much a bulldozer, blowing everyone out of the holes for the RB(s). The last time he played tackle was in 1999 and then only for a short time. In the last two years, all he\'s been is broken. I don\'t think anyone can say that he will come in and be a good RT. I am hopeful, but I don\'t think I can call that a foregone conclusion. I have to remind myself that he was great as a Guard, average as a Tackle and has been injury prone the last two seasons. As for the Smith signing, I liked it. That is until I heard the plan was for him to play FS. Does everyone really think that Tebucky was worse than Bellamy? It\'s a given that TJ is not worth what we are paying him. He didn\'t live up to his expectations. BUT, he led our team in tackles last year and I don\'t remember him getting burned up (at least as badly as I remember Bellamy getting burned). The reason we kept Bellamy last year was because of his \"career\" year the season before. He was a tackling MACHINE. The guy just seemed to be everywhere. Even so, no one considered him worth much in coverage. In \'04 for whatever reason, he just wasn\'t always in the right position. He wasn\'t in on as many tackles and he still isn\'t any good in coverage. When I think of the SS position, I think of that guy who lays the wood when R\'s catch the ball across the middle. The SS makes \'em pay, makes enemy R\'s \"hear footsteps\" when they go across the middle. That guy wasn\'t even on our team last season. I suspect I will get flamed for this, but Bellamy is a MUCH bigger problem than T\'buck. So, in my estimation so far we haven\'t done much to address our needs. We needed an LB - nada We needed a DT - nada We needed an OT - we grabbed a guard who has had injury problems. We needed help in the secondary - we made a move for a great player and replaced the better of our two deep cover guys. Like I said, \"Luke Warm\". Maybe we will trade Howard and get someone to compensate. Maybe we will draft well. I am still hopeful, just not buying into the idea that we\'ve done anything special so far.
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	\"The AB brand of TP will hurt your O-ring.\" - BlackandBlue http://www.darrylbercegeay.com/wsmith1.jpg

03-09-2005, 06:11 PM	#27
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,723	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects We needed an OT - we grabbed a guard who has had injury problems. I haven\'t heard of any injury problems. Did I miss something? Again?

03-09-2005, 06:12 PM	#28
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects Hey, you got someone here who agrees on Bellamy. IMO, he is done.

03-09-2005, 06:22 PM	#29
xan Professor Crab and Site Donor 2014 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Princeton Posts: 3,371 Blog Entries: 34	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects From FrenzyFan: As for the Smith signing, I liked it. That is until I heard the plan was for him to play FS. Does everyone really think that Tebucky was worse than Bellamy? It\'s a given that TJ is not worth what we are paying him. He didn\'t live up to his expectations. BUT, he led our team in tackles last year and I don\'t remember him getting burned up (at least as badly as I remember Bellamy getting burned). The reason we kept Bellamy last year was because of his \"career\" year the season before. He was a tackling MACHINE. The guy just seemed to be everywhere. Even so, no one considered him worth much in coverage. In \'04 for whatever reason, he just wasn\'t always in the right position. He wasn\'t in on as many tackles and he still isn\'t any good in coverage. If you look at the stats, Bellamy has been a consistant performer in each season he\'s played with the Saints and Seattle. His tackling production was in line with each of his previous years, though he did not have an INT for the first season since he became a starter in 1995. This is probably due to the role he was asked to play in the d-scheme. Before bashing a player, please be accurate in your assertions of production. Again, breaking down the play-by-play, it seems like whatever the plan may be, the Saints FO and Haslett are signing players (like Bellamy) based on the relevant stats.
	Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger." Hobbes: "Common lament."

03-09-2005, 06:24 PM	#30
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects I haven\'t heard of any injury problems. Did I miss something? Again? Yeah, the last two years Mayberry has missed a number of games due to injury. 11 in 2003 and 4 in 2004.