Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

OFFENSE

QB - Brooks, Bouman, Finlen, Kingsbury
RB - McAllister, Stecker, McAfee
FB - Karney
WR - Horn, Stallworth, Henderson, Gardner, Lewis
TE - Williams, Conwell, Hall
OT - Gandy, Mayberry, Stinchcomb, Folau
OG - Jacox, Holland, Nesbit
C - Bentley

DEFENSE
DT - Sullivan, Young, Green, Liesle
DE - Grant, (Howard), Smith, Whitehead, (Bryant)
OLB - Bockwoldt, Allen, Rodgers, (Hodge)
ILB - Watson, Ruff
CB - McKenzie, Brown, Thomas, Ambrose, (Craft)
S - Smith, Bellamy, (Jones), Mitchell, (Gleason), Harper

I'm not going to lie, this looks pretty ho-hum to me right now. We've lost Pathon, replaced Riley with Mayberry (a slight upgrade), and added Smith (good!) to a squad from which we will probably lose Gleason.

Here is my general view so far:
OL - Minor improvement
Passing Game - No improvement or a loss
Running Game - Minor improvement
Run Defense - No improvement, (maybe slight impovement with Bockwoldt over Rodgers)
Pass Defense - Substantial improvement

Oddly, we need substantial improvement in our running game and run defense. This cannot be done on scheming alone.

My assessment:
We need a real RT, a backup RB, I like the idea of Mili at TE. With just a real RT, I will consider the running game substantially improved (and the passing game slightly improved due to the possibility of better pass protection).

We also need a vetran LB (or a complete and utter stud), and we need a DT (though this need will be reduced if Sully does step under Pease's guidance). Those additions wil amount to a substantial improvement in the run defense.

Final word:
We're at least a real RT and a vetran (or stud) LB from substantial improvement in every area. Womack, McDougle, Hartwell (whom we inexplicably seem to have no interest in), Peterson, and Witherspoon are starting to look like our last hopes in FA to fill these two needs.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Agreed all around. At this point I don\'t see how our pass protection will be any better, but we should hopefully see improvement in the running game. I wish we could just run a quick strike get the ball out fast offense like the Rams, but we are built around running the ball and play action. If Mayberry at least drops the false starts, that should be an improvement. I also have to believe Watson and Colby will work on strength in the offseason, and be even better contributors. But there is no limit to how much better we could be with a Hartwell or DJ. I also wish Smith was playing CB for a year, but I seem to be in the minority on that one. All in all, I like your thoughts Kool, as usual.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

JKool, good topic, here\'s how I see it...

O-line, Much improved. With Bentley improving at center throughout 2004, he should be much better entering 2005. The addition of Mayberry is huge in my opinion. He\'s no worse than Riley at pass blocking (probably a slight upgrade) and his run blocking is probably best of the entire group now, and Holland has 2 years experience now. This line will be slightly improved pass blocking but HUGELY improved run blocking.
Here\'s why I think this is HUGE.
There should be a lot less 2nd and long, 3rd and long\'s to deal with. Especially if Deuce comes into camp fit and trim (and he will BTW). Defenses will not be able to pin their ears back nearly as much. I see this unit boosting every facet of our offense.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

WR-About the same. They\'re stats may drop some because of the newfound emphasis on the run, but our effectiveness should improve. We probably had 300 3rd-n-long\'s last year. Everyone knew we were gonna pass and we still had success. Imagine if defenses don\'t know its coming. Every WR on this team is ascending, and should improve. The only one not ascending is Joe Horn, but I expect more of the same from him despite his age.

RB-Improved. Finally others were calling out Deuce\'s weight gain. I think he got the message and I predict he comes into 2005 fit and trim with a chip on his shoulder. Exactly what I want him to do. The two-TE set is history, and now with Karney\'s experience this unit should dominate. I suspect Karney will be used quite a bit more as a runner/receiver outlet.

TE-Same. Maybe better if Zach can be utilized properly, or we add a solid vet. Since its not an area of obvious need I\'m positive we\'ll sign one.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Danno - I liked your analysis, until I did the \"BS test\"... ;)

I think Mayberry helps, but I have a hard time believing that he helps to such a degree that the entire offense will be greatly improved. Sure, Bentley should be better. Conversely, Wayne \"I wasn\'t any good when I got here\" Gandy is older, slower, and no doubt working on his holding and false start techniques as we speak. I see minimal improvement in the offense. Add in a new coordinator and changed scheme and it\'s either a wash or slight step back - especially with the loss of Pathon (our only consistent WR other than Horn).

Defensively I\'m also not impressed. Smith might be a ball-hawking center fielder, but how often were the Saints beat deep last year? Teams nickeled and dimed that Saints b/c a) it\'s easier to run for 5 yards a pop and take 12 plays to go 60 yards than to try and throw deep, and b) if you have to throw, Craft/Ambrose/Thomas couldn\'t ever cover the third WR and our LBs can\'t protect the short middle against TEs, RBs, and crossing routes. Bottom line, Smith doesn\'t help us stop the run, which is the defense\'s number 1 problem. If you bring him up in run support, then what have you got? Sammy Knight.

Smith is an upgrade, no doubt. But again, his impact on the defense is entirely contingent on what the front 7 can do.

[Edited on 9/3/2005 by WhoDat]

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

And I guessed correctly exactly who would dump the huge pile of pessimism poop on the topic.

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Who else? :)

Hey man, I scored a 46 equivalent on the Wonderlic. What\'s your Wonderlic punk? :)



[Edited on 9/3/2005 by WhoDat]

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Heck I dunno, I thought Wonderlic was an erotic sexual maneuver. :o

OK, in all seriousness, please identify the BS I spewed.
1. Bentley will improve in his 2nd year at center
2. Mayberry will be a slight upgrade over Riley in pass blocking
3. Mayberry will be a huge upgrade over Riley run blocking
4. A better run game will result in fewer 3rd and long\'s
5. More 3rd and shorts, instead of 3rd and long will boost this offense\'s production.
6. Holland should improve entering his 3rd year in the NFL
7. A healthier and faster Deuce should result in better 1st and 2nd down runs
8. A 3rd and 3 pass play is easier than a 3rd and 12.
9. Eliminating the two-TE set will help
10. Mike Karney should be a better FB in his 2nd year.
11. Utilizing Karney\'s run/catch skills should keep D\'s more honest.

Just wondering which comments you really considered BS.

[Edited on 9/3/2005 by Danno]

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Any analysis of our offense must be done based on what happened last year? And I think one must be aware of what the most important problems were?

Going with that theme, I\'m going to list our problems in order of importance. Of course, this is just my opinion and it\'s open for debate.

For aguements sake, I\'m only going to list the 3 biggest problems on offense.

Offensive problems from 2004:

1. 27th ranked rushing attack.
2. Pass and run blocking by the offensive line.
3. Penalties

I think those were the 3 biggest problems from \'04.

Now the question is how much will we improve in those areas in 2005?

1. 27th ranked rushing attack.

Much of the problem there was Decue being injured. It wasn\'t his weight or anything like that. It was his ankle being injured for the majority of the season. We saw what kind of back Deuce was when the ankle healed?

Assuming Decue stays healthy, I think that brings our rushing attack somewhere in the top 10.

Simply put, that\'s a major improvement and it didn\'t take the first free-agent signing to fix this area!

2. Pass and run blocking by the offensive line.

Hard to say. I think the run blocking will be better with Mayberry. But in all honesty, I haven\'t watched Mayberry play enough to know how he\'s gonna do. It\'s wait and see for me. I surly don\'t see how he couldn\'t be an upgrade for Riley, though.

3. Penalties

We led the NFL in offensive penalties in 2004. And Victor Riley led all linemen in penalties. I think it\'s safe to say that\'s not going to happen in 2005 with Mayberry in his spot. I don\'t think it can be overstated how much all of those penalties hurt.

So, based on last year and the signing of Mayberry, I see a huge improvent in our 27th ranked rushing attack. A major drop off in penalties. And it\'s wait and see on the pass blocking. All in all, it looks promising to me.

And about Pathon, he wasn\'t a big part of our offense. And he surly wasn\'t a big loss. While it remains to be seen how Devery Henderson will do, it\'s also exciting having a guy, who might be able to out run Stallworth, being on the field this year. We\'ll see how he catches the ball. He can\'t get better unless he\'s on the field. That much I do know.

On the defensive side of the ball. The secondary looks solid. Maybe not spectacular. But McKenzie is a legit starter at CB. Fakir Brown held his own last year and deserves to be the starter, IMO. Jay Bellamy I have some concers about. But he\'s done very well the past 2 years at SS.

The addition of Dwight Smight is huge, IMO. There\'s no need to elaborate on this guy. He\'s the real deal and he\'s proven it.

The big question marks are at LB and DT. Watson, Bockwoldt and James Allen played well over the last 4 games. However, we need ONE playermaker at either MLB or OLB and I\'d feel much better about this group.

As far as DT goes. Brian Young, while not spectacular, is a decent starter. Sully could come into the mix here. Though, he can\'t be counted on. But at least there\'s a chance. I\'d feel much better if we had a proven starter there.

So, on defense, the only thing I can point to as a real weakness is DT and LB.

Free-agency isn\'t over yet and we still have the draft. It\'s anyone\'s guess what will be addressed on the defense.

[Edited on 9/3/2005 by GumboBC]

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Just so the discussion can continue fairly, we did not lead the league in offensive penalties. Oakland did. We were also 14th in yards per penalty. We were first in penalty yards though by 96. But Victor Riley did lead all linemen. Carry on. ;)

[Edited on 9/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Yeah, that\'s what I was talking about. I should have made that clear. But, I\'ve posted this in the past and I assumed everyone knew what I was talking about.

I think we had more penalty yardage than we had actual yards rushing. So, in effect, we had minus yards rushing.. ;)

[Edited on 9/3/2005 by GumboBC]

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Now THAT is a funny stat. Makes me say :o

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

In analyzing the defense (from another thread), I proposed that it was the pass defense that really needed addressing rather than the run defense. The statistics on tracking defensive performance on a play-by-play basis showed that the pass defense gave up more yards early in games, went for longer plays (over 10 yards) and failed to stop teams on 3rd and long passing situations. Most of the yards given up in rushing defense were late in games where the Saints were down by 13 points or more, exactly where you would expect them to be.

From this, one can argue that upgrading the secondary would be the higher priority, then DT, then LB. Smith will bring a \"clock cleaning\" threat for passes over 10 yards, which were the Achilles heel last year.

Also, statistically, because the Saints were far behind in many games, the number of pass plays in the 2nd half was significantly higher than run plays, as the run was abandoned. When you abandon the running game, the statistics for running the ball will correspondingly fall. It would be fallacious to attribute the lack of running production on Deuce or the blocking. Game situations far more dictated the run/pass play selection and therefore the running statistics.

As far as upgrading the offense, a qb who can read defenses would be a major upgrade. After that, a versatile lineman is necessary. There were several injuries last year that caused a shuffling of assignments, and having a guy like Mayberry is addressing that need.

As for penalties, The defense had many many many pass interference and illegal contact calls, as well as some fatally timed personal fouls (mostly in the 1st 12 games). This aspect more than anything contributed to the persistent defensive struggles. Again, having trustworthy help over the top by Smith will go a long way to alleviating the pressure on the cover corners.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Damn, I failed to pursue the point:

It seems that whatever plan the FO and Haslett have for addressing needs, the actions taken so far are somewhat related to the relevant statistics.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Dare we hope that the FO and Hazlett are trying to fit the team to some remote semblance of a Plan?

My heart be still!!!

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

OK, Gumbo...I know people tee off on you here, but your \'3 offensive problems\' was missing 2 very important elements:

1) The erratic and downright confounding play of our regressing QB.
2) Poor play calling and in game adjustments.

An impartial NFL expert would mention number one first and any Saints fan who wants to argue number 2 didn\'t watch the games :)

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

I agree with part of that. However, I think Deuce being injured and the blocking by the offensive line really hurt in a lot of games.

Examples:

09/12 Seattle L 7-21 Yes 16 57 3.6
09/19 San Francisco W 30-27 Yes 3 1 0.3 (Deuce got injured)
09/26 @St. Louis W 28-25 Did Not Play (out with injury)
10/24 @Oakland W 31-26 Yes 24 42 1.8 (24 carries for 42yds?)
12/19 @Tampa Bay W 21-17 Yes 25 89 3.6 (25 carries for 89yds?)

In conclusion:
1. Deuce missed almost 2 full games due to injury.
2. Averaged 1.8 yard per carry on 24 runs against the Raiders?!
3. Averaged 3.6yds on 25 carries against the Bucs. And rushed for a total of 89 yards on 25 carries.

That doesn\'t sound very \"Deuce\" like to me. I think injury and poor blocking significantly effected our running game in \'04.

But, I do agree that we had to abandon the running game often.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Let\'s just say I think our lack of rushing far outweighed any problems by our QB. And the playcalling, while it wasn\'t the best in the world, was dictated by our lack of success in the running game.

Simply saying our play calling was the main factor, doesn\'t cut it with me. I agree it wasn\'t the best in the world, but I need more evidence than that\'s the way you feel.

IMO, play calling is rarely ever the problem.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Hhhmmm, just as an example, but did you know in the Arizona game when Emmitt broke that 29 yard run to seal the game and put him over 100 yards, Venturi called a stunt? Made a big hole right up the middle cause NOONE was there in time for the quick hitting run they called for Emmitt. Oh, and Arizona was up and trying to grind clock and had no reason to pass. Why would anyone call a stunt in an obvious running situation? Anywho, my point was bad play calling can have just as negative an effect as anything else.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Let me clarify my statement. Every team calls good and bad plays. When they work the coach is a genius. When they don\'t he\'s an idiot.

Playcalling is largely dependent on personnel. We can\'t run the same plays as the Patriots, Colts, or Vikings. Instead, our play calling is dependent on Brooks, Deuce, Joe Horn, offensive line, etc., ect.

When we can\'t run the ball, it\'s hard to be creative. It\'s pass pass pass. Or try to run the ball and fail fail fail.

Were there mistakes in the offensive play calling? I\'m sure there were. But, it was more to do with the personnel than the play calling, IMO.

As far as the defense goes. Yeah, that\'s one of those rare cases where we\'ve got a defensive coordinator that sucks. His playcalling absolutely sucked. And we saw how much the defense improved when that playcalling changed. Whomever was responsible for that, I have no idea.

[Edited on 9/3/2005 by GumboBC]

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

From GumboBC:

Not that I\'m being argumentative here, but all three teams run essentially the same offense, have the same basic modified West Coast Offense, which the Saints run. We have an All Pro running back, an All Pro Wide-out, and two cheetah fast second/third receivers. What about not being able to play call is deficient here? Are you implying that it\'s Brooks inability to run a West Coast offense that\'s the problem?

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Gumbo, like haslett, willnever hold :censored: accountable for his actions-it will always be someone else...get over it move on....

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

BTTT: This was a good thread gone bad.

Which units do you think will be improved in 2005?

Which units will be about the same?

Which units worse?

Better: O-line, RB/FB, D-line (barely), CB, FS,
Same: WR, TE, SS, LB
Worse: QB (only because we don\'t have a solid back-up yet)

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Good idea Danno.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

I don\'t agree. The Colts offense is nothing like ours. Tom Moore, offenisve coordinator for the Colts, has no background in the West Coast Offense. Moore\'s first job as offensive coordinator in the NFL was with the Steelers back in the 80\'s. He also was the offensive coordinator for the Lions when Barry Sanders was there.

The Colts offense has no charataristics of any West Coast Offense I\'ve ever seen. The Colts have an offensive philosiphy of attacking down the field in the passing game. Much more so than any West Coast Offense I\'ve ever seen. If I were gonna compare them to anybody, it would be the St. Louis Rams in their hayday. Also, Peyton is the only QB that I know of that calls his own plays. And the Colts don\'t call thier plays unitl they are at the line of scrimmage. Big big difference in our offenses.

And the Vikings sure don\'t run a West Coast Offense. The Pats run something like a WC offense though. I think.


The Colts number one reciever is much better than Joe Horn. Not knocking Joe, but there\'s no comparision there. And the Colts number 2 and 3 receivers are better than ours too. And it\'s close between Edge and Deuce. But last year it wasn\'t so close. Deuce had a bad year.

No, that\'s not what I\'m implying. Actually, IMO, we don\'t run a West Coast Offense and never have. McCarthy himself has said so. Our offense is much like that of Green Bays with Brett Favre. Lots of deep patterns in the passing game derived from the play action running game.


The point I was trying to make is that our playcalling was very limited in 2004 due to the injury to Deuce and the poor blocking by the offensive line.

I don\'t think different playcalling is gonna help our problem areas out too much. I think better blocking and a healthy Deuce will, though.

Of course, I do think playcalling is important. I just don\'t see how that related to our offensive problems in 2004.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

As FA wind closer and closer to the end, I can sum up my feelings regarding our FA activity in two words: Luke Warm.

In my estimation, our greatest need this off-season was at LB. After that DT and OT are about the same. Further down the chart would be the defensive secondary.

First the O-Line: I find it reasonable to say that our O-Line will probably be slightly improved. I find it ridiculous to say the will certainly will be or that they will be significantly better. Mayberry was a great player three seasons ago at Guard. He was all-pro and pretty much a bulldozer, blowing everyone out of the holes for the RB(s). The last time he played tackle was in 1999 and then only for a short time.

In the last two years, all he\'s been is broken. I don\'t think anyone can say that he will come in and be a good RT. I am hopeful, but I don\'t think I can call that a foregone conclusion. I have to remind myself that he was great as a Guard, average as a Tackle and has been injury prone the last two seasons.

As for the Smith signing, I liked it. That is until I heard the plan was for him to play FS. Does everyone really think that Tebucky was worse than Bellamy? It\'s a given that TJ is not worth what we are paying him. He didn\'t live up to his expectations. BUT, he led our team in tackles last year and I don\'t remember him getting burned up (at least as badly as I remember Bellamy getting burned).

The reason we kept Bellamy last year was because of his \"career\" year the season before. He was a tackling MACHINE. The guy just seemed to be everywhere. Even so, no one considered him worth much in coverage. In \'04 for whatever reason, he just wasn\'t always in the right position. He wasn\'t in on as many tackles and he still isn\'t any good in coverage.

When I think of the SS position, I think of that guy who lays the wood when R\'s catch the ball across the middle. The SS makes \'em pay, makes enemy R\'s \"hear footsteps\" when they go across the middle. That guy wasn\'t even on our team last season.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but Bellamy is a MUCH bigger problem than T\'buck.

So, in my estimation so far we haven\'t done much to address our needs.

We needed an LB - nada
We needed a DT - nada
We needed an OT - we grabbed a guard who has had injury problems.
We needed help in the secondary - we made a move for a great player and replaced the better of our two deep cover guys.

Like I said, \"Luke Warm\". Maybe we will trade Howard and get someone to compensate. Maybe we will draft well. I am still hopeful, just not buying into the idea that we\'ve done anything special so far.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

I haven\'t heard of any injury problems. Did I miss something? Again?

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Hey, you got someone here who agrees on Bellamy. IMO, he is done.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

From FrenzyFan:
If you look at the stats, Bellamy has been a consistant performer in each season he\'s played with the Saints and Seattle. His tackling production was in line with each of his previous years, though he did not have an INT for the first season since he became a starter in 1995. This is probably due to the role he was asked to play in the d-scheme.

Before bashing a player, please be accurate in your assertions of production.

Again, breaking down the play-by-play, it seems like whatever the plan may be, the Saints FO and Haslett are signing players (like Bellamy) based on the relevant stats.

Current Lineup... The Usual Suspects
 

Yeah, the last two years Mayberry has missed a number of games due to injury. 11 in 2003 and 4 in 2004.