Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

If by \"comparable player\" you mean a guy who can go to the Pro Bowl four out of the next 5 years, produce at a rate that places him in the top 5 of all NFL WRs while having to catch laser shots throw behind him at his feet for $4 million per season, then I say NO, that\'s not \"easy enough.\" But hey, I\'m sure all of you guys screaming to get rid of Joe Horn can name a WR who wouldn\'t demand more than a 3 year 13.5 million dollar contract and produce 1200+ yards and 9TDs a season, right? That guy\'s name is...???

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

..that\'s the thing... I am not a stats guy, but you look at the numbers Joe put up last year, no one in the team is even close! Obviously there are \"factors\" that contribute to this, and I am not going to get into them right now... but all things equal, he is the only time-proven receiver the Saints have...
So the obvious question in front of the Saints is: can anyone currently on the roster give us the same production?
Donte? Devery? Beerman?
..that\'s the leverage Horn has right now on the Saints... yes there are better receivers out there, and Joe may not be \"top 5\", but, like it or not, he\'s \"#1\" in new Orleans...

... I would love to see Donte finally establish himself, but what are the chances?

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

GOOD!

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

You know guys there\'s not even a link to this supposed rumor, and I\'ve searched the Atlanta Journal Constitution website and there has never been mention of this. I think this is GumboBC\'s stir up the pot thread for yesterday and today.

There\'s really nothing to get \"rowled up\" about, there\'s really no news here at all about this.

If you post news, link it back to the source or it can be deleted.

[Edited on 3/16/2005 by Halo]

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Only problem with your theory Who is that JOE won\'t be going to the pro bowl four of the next five years. So if you are looking to replace him for his PAST performances, I don\'t think we can do that. So since JOe can\'t be the JOE you want for the next 4 of 5 years, the point of not being able to find someone to replace him is moot. Expands the list greatly if you consider the production we will be getting from a 38 year old Joe in 5 years doesn\'t it?

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Marcus Allen was able to extend his career because he split play time with Bo Jackson. How is Horn any different? ;)

EDIT: On another note, I\'m not budging on this, at all, nor do I think any of the other participants of this discussion will either, so I\'m done. I\'ve made all the points I want to make on the subject. One more, \"Sign Joe!!!!\" and I\'ll be on my way.

[Edited on 16/3/2005 by BlackandBlue]

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Oh, I see. You know how Joe Horn will be playing in 5 years. My bad, I didn\'t realize that you could predict the future. Is Joe Horn LIKELY to be a Pro Bowler in 5 years? No. Is he likely to be productive over the next 5 years? Yes. Is L. Coles or Plaxico LIKELY to be a Pro Bowler in 5 years? No. Are those guys likely to be productive? Sure. But given the choice between a known commodity who is due some love and, yes, money, from this team and a couple of younger guys who would cost picks in a trade and probably end up costing close to the amount of $$ that Joe will end up getting - I\'ll take Horn. I said that 3 years ago when he signed his current extension and I was berated then too. I\'d say two Pro Bowls, nearly 3,500 yards and 10 TDs a season is good enough for me.

You guys act like a Joe Horn is easy to come by. There must be 40 or 50 guys out there who can produce top 5 numbers over 5 straight seasons right? Oh, then why are there only 5? And when was the last time you saw the Saints sign one of those guys?

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

I could name a list of guys who could do what Joe Horn did ON THIS TEAM. Do we forget the other players aren\'t ON THIS TEAM so their stats are not gonna be what Joe\'s are? How many times must the same argument be repeated? Think Harrison\'s numbers dropped cause Wayne AND Stokley played out of this world last year? Think Moss\' dropped cause he was hurt or playing hurt in 8 or more games? I named about 15-20 receivers who could do what Joe does, he ain\'t nothing special. So if I can\'t think at his age he WON\"T go to 4 of the next 5 pro-bowls, what makes you think you can predict he will? Pot.......kettle.

Who said anything about Plaxico? I never once in ANY thread said HE was better than Joe. So you are making things up again like the Deuce deal? Doesn\'t make your blindness towards Joe any more valid. I did say Coles, since he is what, 5 years younger than Joe and has gone to a pro bowl and caught 90 balls last year in a TERRIBLE offense. Terrible. I bet IN OUR OFFENSE he would have a better chance of going to the pro bowl 4 of the next 5 years than Joe. But of course when you look through Madden video game glasses guys don\'t slow down when they reach their mid thirties. Good call.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Joe Horn had what 1300 yards receiving in 2000 when Willie Jackson did also.

Joe Horn had 1300 yards receiving in 2004 when there was virtually no other threat at WR and a bad running attack.

There are other guys on this team that can put up Joe Horn numbers right now? Who? You\'re telling me if Stallworth was the number 1 he\'d have 1300 yards receiving on 90 some odd catches and 11 TDs? Maybe he could get to 11 TDs... Oh, and let\'s not forget Gardner and the Beer Man. If only Haslett would insert them in the starting lineup they\'d both be Pro Bowlers too. Are you nuts?

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Okay, now I have no idea what you are talking about. I mention Coles, Moss, Harrison, and the other guys I previously listed, and you talk about Stallowrth and Beer man? Dude, when you lose an argument, you go down in a blaze don\'t you? I don\'t even know what you are talking about with that one.

Let me quote what I said:
That talks about if Coles was in our offense.

This talks about if OTHER RECEIVERS were in our offense, they would be doing what Joe does. Ya know other receivers, not already in our offense? Like Andre Johnson and Chad Johnson and any of the other 15 or so guys I listed. Ya know, how you keep throwing out Joe\'s numbers? If other receivers were in our offense, they coudl do the same? Anything getting though? Where does Stallworth and Beerman fit into that? :seeingstars:

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

I took ON THIS TEAM to mean you were talking about guys ON THIS TEAM...


Whodi, you can make totally unsubstantiated comments about what other guys might do on this team all you want. My counter argument is simple and strong.

In 2004, Joe Horn was 2nd in the league in receiving. He did that with the 27th ranked rushing attack. The 32nd tanked defense. A QB ranked in the middle to bottom part of the league in many stats who had a bad year, and TEs and WRs that offered no other real threat. In 2004, the key to stopping the Saints offense was easy - stop Joe Horn. No one else produced at a high level. Teams knew who to key on. No one could stop him.

If all these other guys you listed could put up 90 receptions, 1300 yards, and 11 TDs on a team with the 27th ranked rushing attack, 20+ ranked QB, no other WR in the top 50, a 20+ ranked TE, and the worst defense in the league, why can\'t they do it on their teams?

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Yeah, that makes sense. Seriously it does make SOME sense.

But, what about Brooks, WhoDat?

1. 27th ranked rushing attack.
2. terrible offensive line.
3. Only one reliable receiver.
4. Terrible play calling (accoding to you and some others)

Why do you never apply that to Brooks? That\'s why I can\'t take you too seriously. Seems you have an agenda?

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

I could go on, but why. Why draft anyone from college? With all these \"proven\" guys already in the NFL, why let anyone retire? Just keep re-signing these \"proven\" guys until they can\'t walk anymore. Right? Is that the plan? So basically we should cut Stallworth and sign Jerry Rice, he is a proven guy. The Vikes should replace Moss with Tim Brown, another proven guy. Obviously in your reasoning the NFL should not be based on what you WILL do, but what you have done. So why are we discussing Howard? Let him go and we can sign Bruce Smith. Sure he is retired, but he WAS real good years back. Let\'s just keep getting players based on what they HAD done. Forget what other players COULD do. Forget age. Once again, good plan. Think we can get Anthony Munoz to come play for our line? He was good years back.

You want guys who put up numbers on sorry offenses? In 2003, Coles had 82 recepts, 1200 yards, and 6 TDs. Washington\'s offense was 23rd overall. Ours was 11th. Washington\'s rushing offense was 22nd. Washington was 25 in total D. Good enough? Patrick Ramsey was the qb, and Tim Hasselbeck. Good enough? This was before Portis. Good enough? Coles went to the Pro Bowl. HE would eclipse and shatter Joe\'s numbers in our offense. Come on man.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

... I think what WhoDat is trying to say is the same thing that I posted: yes there are many WRs in the NFL who are better than Horn, yes there are many that could be better than Horn if given the chance, and yes there are WRs playing in college now that will be better than Horn once they get on the NFL, but the reality for the Saints offense today is that Joe Horn is the best WR on the team and, as far as production goes, no other WR on the Saints roster comes even close.

.. like I said before, I am not a \"stats\" guy, but check this out:
this past season, Joe got 1399 yds on 94 receptions and 11 td\'s on a bum knee. The next best was Donte, with 767 yds on 58 catches for 5 tds. The 3rd best was Pathon, 581 on 34 and 1 td. The next three are not even WRs (1 TE and 2 RB\'s). Pathon is gone.

..so here\'s the deal..
if Joe goes, the Saints would need Donte to finally break out and play the #1 WR position and put out Horn-like production. Possible? Maybe, maybe not...

then the next WR in line for the #2 spot would be... drum roll... Michael Lewis,,. yep, the Beerman... yes they could give Devery and/or Talman the #2... and maybe they would do ok...

...are there any prospects, even on a trade or in the draft? Nope...

.. the question really is not whether Horn is going to be here in 5 years producing like he has for the past 5... the question is how valuable is that production, or the expectation of that production, in the next 1-2 years? Do you want to take out of the picture the one good constant the team has had for the past 5 years and make yet one more position an issue?

..now don\'t get me wrong, if not signing Horn would mean bringing in, say Ray Lewis or Orlando Pace (and exaggeration, but you get the point) sure, by all means... but just to \"save the money\" or \"not paying because he\'s old\".. well..

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

why let anyone retire? Just keep re-signing these \"proven\" guys until they can\'t walk anymore. Right? [/quote:3710495d57]

Well Whodi, you\'ve identified one of my beliefs. I do believe in improving in FA is a better way to get a team over the hump. The draft is a long-term tool for building, IMO. This team doesn\'t have 5 years to wait for players to develop. The time is now. Key acquisitions of players who can make an immediate impact will make or break this team\'s playoff and/or SB aspirations - and I say that you get proven impact players - generally that\'s a more successful model, IMO, than drafting a player - which tends to be more of a crap shoot.

Secondly, you are polarizing the argument in Billy-esque fashion. Have I suggested that the Saints shouldn\'t look to improve via the draft? No, never. But your statement seems to suggest that the Saints should cut Horn just as soon as they draft a WR. Why not? He\'s younger and will likely be more talented, no? So just dump Horn, some rookie will solve all your problems at WR... to suggest that drafting a player at a position where you have a Pro Bowler makes the Pro Bowler expendable is ridiculous.

Likewise, you imply that I am calling for the Saints to keep Horn until he can\'t walk. I never have. You seem pretty certain that Joe Horn\'s skills are diminishing and will continue to drop sharply over the next few seasons. I don\'t think that is the case. His stats would suggest the opposite - that he hasn\'t lost any ability to be a top 5 WR in terms of production. Moreover, I\'ve heard people suggest that Joe Horn had nothing left for three straight seasons now. That simply hasn\'t been the case. But hey, since you can predict the future I guess I should just listen to you and believe that Joe Horn won\'t be effective next season. Want to place a wager on that?

On a side note - you lose some credibility when you polarize arguments like you continue to do in this thread. If you really think that the idea of keeping Joe Horn is tantamount to hiring Bruce Smith out of retirement, then maybe you need to reconsider your ability to judge talent. If you\'re just doing it to make a point, I would suggest going another route. You don\'t see me saying the you\'re suggesting we simply hold an open contest to find the 22 best athletes off the street and throw them on the field - with an age limit of 25 or under of course...

Sure Billy. Let me see if I can think of any differences between Joe Horn and Aaron Brooks...

Despite an inconsistent offense, Joe Horn is a model of consistency for the Saints. Despite poor play around him, Joe Horn has gone to the Pro Bowl four of the last 5 years and his stats show he has produced on the field at a top 5 level for 5 straight years... oh yeah, he\'s being paid at a rate commisserate with a guy ranked 15th or 20th.

Now let\'s try Aaron Brooks.

Despite an inconsisent offense, AB has found a way to be even more inconsistent than the rest of the players around him. Considering the way this team plays, that\'s saying something. Despite great years out of his Pro Bowl WR and RB, Brooks has never been to the Pro Bowl. He got a top 5 contract but has produced at a rate of 15th to 20th in the league at a position where he is competing against 30 other guys, as compared to Horn who is competing against 75 or 100. You want to find an excuse for Brooks every year, but the point is, if he was a good QB, he would produce that way DESPITE other players around him. Horn has. Deuce has. Brooks has not. If I was suggesting paying Stallworth top 5 money simply b/c he said he was worth it and that he would hold out if he didn\'t get it, then you might have a point. Alas, as usual, you do not.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

You can question what you want about me Who, ain\'t gonna bother me. I polarize cause that\'s what I hear. The point is, noone is knocking what Joe HAS done, I am knocking what he WILL BE doing in 1, 2 or 3 years. Joe has demanded top 5 money, get that? He isn\'t a top 5 receiver now, I doubt he will be going forward. So the difference is, you wanna pay Joe for what he HAS done, when all common knowledge of the NFL and age show he will not be able to continue to do that. How dumb will we look then?

Tobias, you seem to think I am suggesting Joe walk with no back-up plan. I don\'t know if you read the rest of the disagreements but my plan was to trade him instead of paying him. My main goal was to trade him to Minny for #7 since they needed a receiver but they just signed Trav Taylor so I doubt they are shopping for any more receivers. But I would try for Mike Williams, who would be Joe and more. That kid is a rare talent with huge size. Or trade Joe for a younger proven receiver, like a Boldin or whomever. I am not discussing letting him just walk away, it seems that was the point you were tying to make.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

nope,. I am just stating the reality of the situation...yeah it would be great to get Mike Williams, sure, but the reality is that the Saints are not going to get him...

... also, I do think you need to look more closely at your arguments, because your \"backup plans\" really don\'t make sense...

..why would Minnesota trade its #7 for Joe Horn, if they got a chance to get either Braylon Edwards or Mike Williams?

..why would the Cardinals trade Anquan Boldin for Joe Horn? They got 2 good looking young players at WR on a franchise that\'s just going into its second year of rebuilding... Dennis Green ain\'t that stupid..

The reality is, players like Joe Horn do have a chance to get paid in free agency, but they are NOT going to make for good trade bait because of their age...

..the reality of the Saints is that, in the next 2 years, barring a huge trade and Loomis eating someone\'s lunch (yeah, that\'s gonna happen) the best the Saints got going for them at WR is Joe Horn. As it is today, should Joe Horn be out of the pciture, your startding WRs for your new Orleans Saints would be #1 Donte Stallworth and #2 Michael Lewis.. if you don\'t pay Horn, then Horn is disgruntled... you want that in your locker room? If you let him go, you got only if\'s..

.. I am not saying they should or shouldn\'t pay him \"top 5\" money.. I am just stating the reality of the situation as it pertains to the Saints.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

That\'s all well and good tobias, but since I am not a GM, any plan I propose to replace Horn is flawed. Doesn\'t mean the team is gonna do it. So if you are gonna say someone has no back-up plan, then poo-poo it when they make suggestions cause YOU don\'t find it plausible, what\'s the point? I am saying what I would like to see happen were Joe not here, I am saying who I would like to see if I were in a position to try and move Joe. I am listing people I feel could be replacements, doesn\'t me we can get them or that it makes sense. Once again, it\'s MY OPINION of who I would like to see replace Joe, sorry it doesn\'t fit into a plan outlined by the Saints in the paper so it could be facts for you.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Joe for Crumpler, in a heartbeat.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Ummmmm....there are not \"many\" receivers better than Horn in this league. I am getting so tired of this argument. List them, please. How did he make the pro bowl on a team in the middle of the pack with no exposure if he is so average?

I agree with WhoDat. The whole \"sign tim brown over moss\" blah blah is so childish. It\'s the exact reason I don\'t visit the nola board any more....every argument goes that route.

Having said this, it may be time for Joe to move on. If he is supposedly calling out the GM (for better or worse), then that just can\'t be pretty in the long run. If he\'s threatening to hold out....we may have to send him down the road. This team is too volatile for that mess. Things will have to be really harmonious around saints camp for this team to have a good year. This situation will get worse before it gets better.

I don\'t like it, but we need to either move Horn and grab a legitimate rookie stud (Braylon would be my choice) or clean up the Horn stuff in short order, which will be easier said than done.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

You could have said the EXACT SAME THING two years ago when he signed his contract extension, and you would have been COMPLETELY WRONG.

First, Joe Horn is a top 5 WR. He\'s top 5 based on what he produces on the field. That\'s what matters in the NFL, in case you hadn\'t noticed. If only talent matters, the Saints are better than the Patriots. You ready to make that statement?

Second, I\'m not playing the crystal ball game and tell you what Joe Horn will or won\'t do 3 years from now. I\'m glad that you can predict the future, I can\'t. What I am telling you is that the man has not shown signs of slowing. He isn\'t losing a step yet.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

So two years ago he was two years younger right? If something happened TWO YEARS AGO, that means we have advanced 2 years beyong that point correct? Or is Joe still the same age he was TWO YEARS AGO? I think we know the answer, at least I do. In case you didn\'t get the memo, he ain\'t. Two years is a WORLD of difference in NFL player years, especially on this size of 30. Two years ago Wayne Gandy was good. Two years ago, Mayberry was in the pro bowl. Two years ago, Jerry Rice was the leading receiver on the Oakland Raiders Superbowl team. Two years ago Warren Sapp was still considered one of the top DTs in the game. Two years ago, San Diego was picking first int he draft just about every year. Two years ago, the Pats weren\'t in the Superbowl. See how things can chance in TWO YEARS?

Second, if you don\'t think age is a factor when players negotiate contracts, there really is no way to convince you otherwise. But people who make these decisions in the NFL are smart enough make that a factor, and I thank God for it. No player in the NFL at 33 years old would get a top 5 contract, except if you are an elite player, such as a Marvin Harrison, who has been doing it for 9 years, not 4 or 5. MArvin has averaged double digit TDs the past 6 years with 15 last year, has Joe? Hell no, not on his best day. So he isn\'t and shouldn\'t get paid like that. Joe ain\'t taking us to the playoffs, so what makes him indispensible?

And, you say you aren\'t paying the crystal ball game, but you wanna pay Joe top 5. So what you are saying is, you believe Joe will prove his value at top 5 money for the forseeable future. Hate to break it to you, but that\'s using a crystal ball. You are predicting Joe will be at the same level and deserving of a high contract. I am predicting he won\'t. How is that different from what you are doing again?

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

..off the top of my head...

Marvin Harrison
Deion Branch
Hines Ward
Randy Moss
Terrell Owens

... that\'s many... how many is \"many\" for you? ..and these are flat out better than Horn, not only at receiving, but in the case of Ward and Branch, at blocking also...

..we can keep going...

Reggie Wayne
Brandon Stokley
Laverneous Coles
Torry Holt
Rod Smith
Steve Smith
Chad Johnson

... others you can argue for or against.; a bunch where I would put Horn with:
Issac Bruce
Eddie Kennison
Mihsin Mohammad
Marty Booker

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Hey? Just wondering... can you list those WRs again in order of Pro Bowls they\'ve been to... either in the last 5 years, or ever... thanks.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

What would be the point of doing that? Demostrate the Joe Horn is better than someone because he has won more popularity constests (which is what the Pro Bowl really is)?

The points I have been trying to make all along are very simple...

...whether there are better receivers in the NFL than Joe Horn or not , the reality of the New Orleans Saints is that Joe Horn is the best receiver in the NFL because he\'s the best WR on the Saints roster , and no one on the Saints roster even comes close. Losing Joe (either by him sitting out, being disgruntled, released, etc...) this year or the next is not a \"pasing of the torch\" situation like Rice-Owens in SF... is simply decimating the WR corps, not knowing whether Donte can actually be a go-to-guy , and having no one behind Donte close to an NFL WR behind him.

..my second point is, what the Saints have to figure out is how much Joe\'s production is worth in the next 1-2 seasons, not 5 years down the road, taking into account what they currently have, which as it is now, is Donte #1 Beerman #2, and practically 2 rookies in Talman and Devery. for 3 and 4, and what they could possibly have in the future..

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Here\'s a point for you. If I\'m AB, I would be doing everything in my power to keep Horn around. Why? Because we have brought in several players who have seemingly forgot how to catch a ball once they got here. I have often wondered what\'s up with that. One theory is that AB throws a \"hard\" ball. It is entirely possible that it takes a great pair of hands to catch his throws on a consistent basis. Horn is the only one of this group who has demonstrated an ability to hang on to the ball. Who is to say that we may let Horn go, and the next young guy to come in and replace him might have trouble hanging on to AB\'s laser beams. Just a thought...admittedly I could be way off base on this one, but just an observation on players coming here and suddenly not being able to catch the ball.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Maybe I\'m very stupid, but if a catchable ball is dropped, I put the blame on the receiver. This in the freakin\' NFL. You\'ve got guys like Brett Favre, Aaron Brooks, and several other QBs who throw the ball very hard and fast. The receivers HAVE to hold on to it.

And Joe Horn has never done anything without Brooks.

And when Willie Jackson was here, he never dropped AB\'s passes.

Willie Jackson:
2001 New Orleans Saints 16 16 81 1046 12.9 63 5 14 3 54

The best year(s) Willie Jackson and Joe Horn ever had was when Brooks was the QB.

Joe makes some tough catches at times, but he drops way too many catchable balls.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Name three times other than the TB game.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

OK...Horn broke out with the Saints and he broke out the same year AB hit the scene. Maybe you don\'t remember this but there was a different QB throwing the ball to Horn as he was breaking out. (The first 11 games of 2000.) So, of the 1340 yards Joe had that year, how many of those were Brooks? 20% maybe. This shows that Joe was ready to break out AB or no AB. (As a matter of fact it was Blake\'s touch bombs that got Horn started on the highlight reels.) Not alot of those touch bombs raining down over the last couple of years. (I\'m not saying Blake is necessarily better than AB, but you could argue that this team may make the playoffs in 01 with Blake and in 02 with Jake.)

Are you trying to say that Horn is nothing without AB? That\'s very nice.

For every catchable ball that Joe drops, he snags 2-3 that are a foot over his head or leading him into a hit/double coverage.

I used to try to defend Brooks cuz he usually had a good game for every bad one. This year it was more like 3-1. The fact is that we had the streak at the end of the year thanks to better D and duece. The one play that stood out for AB was the Carolina TD pass, which was the best playpass of his career.

Go check out the clinching TD vs Dallas and tell me that was not the work of an elite NFL receiver. Bad throw, ridiculous catch. Game Saints. AB gets a TD on a bad throw.

The fact is that all Saints receivers have made some ill-timed drops over the last couple of years, but they have also layed out for some pretty bad balls and helped your boy out. That\'s part of football.

I was at the Tampa game......Brooks was horrible. Overthrowing everyone and taking 10 yard losses like a psycho. He made one good throw (TD to Donte) in that whole game. The TD to Horn was actually really dangerous and Horn made a play on it.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Wow, now that is a point I actually agree with yasoon on. Miracle of miracles. Joe was gonna be Joe AB or no AB. yasoon points to the Tampa game, I point to the Dallas game I was at. Terrible AB, Joe snags a tossed up ball. Td to break the tie in the 4th quarter. I may disagree on a lot of things about Joe, but I will agree it is not AB that makes him good.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Hey, we\'re all rooting for the same team here. It\'s cool if we screw up and agree on something. And we didn\'t disagree about Horn being the best ever in NO, you just don\'t care that he is :D

I majored in stats, so excuse me for this completely obscure one:

What receiver had the highest percentage of his team\'s first downs?

Horn (Moose is second and then there\'s a drop off.). That means when the team needed to keep a drive moving (which the Saints struggled mightily with), AB looked to Horn. Again, not saying to give the man the farm, just saying that he has been a very important piece of the puzzle.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

I think that has to do more with AB\'s tunnel vision. Same with Moose. After Smith went down, Jake had tunnel vision for Moose. It\'s an interesting stat, but explainable. My dad has season tickets and goes to every game, he is as impartial as they come when it comes to players on this team, and even he says AB locks on to Joe a good portion of the time, or at least WAY more than he should.

[Edited on 18/3/2005 by saintswhodi]

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Which is one of my biggest problems with AB....all the physical tools, but he just doesn\'t see the field really well.

One could argue that the QB develops this tunnel vision after the receiver earns his trust. (Donte\'s drops seem to always be on 3rd and 7....giving Brooks no reason to look his way in the clutch.)

I was watching NFL network and they were doing some stuff on Mariucci. (I love him as a coach, but never like the niners.)
Young hit his 4th option for a TD down the sideline. I thought to myself......4th option? I\'d love to see Brooks get past the checkdown back.

This is part of my problem with the \"how good is AB\" argument. Is he surrounded with some of the best skilled players in Saints history? Yes. Does he have some of the best QB numbers in Saints history? Yes

However, he seems to look for his primary guy and either throw into coverage, run backwards and throw it away/get sacked, or check down to the back for 1 yard. it seems like he always hits the guy the play is called for and he never really thinks on his feet. I\'ve rooted for the guy, but this year\'s regression put me over the edge. And putting the QB coach who has pampered him all along at OC probably isn\'t going to light his fire either.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Whoa dude, it\'s like I am talking to myself here. It\'s like we were two different people in that other thread. I have made these SAME arguments about AB numerous times. Yes, tunnel vision comes with trust, that is no doubt. But it also helps to inflate some stats that could prob be of more benefit it there was more balance to them across the rest of the offense.

Trust me though, we walk the same line on AB.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

Gumbo, I agree. I\'m not knocking AB because he throws hard. I don\'t know if it is in his best interest, but I agree that a pro should hang on, hard or not. Where I may disagree with you is that just because a guy is in the NFL doesn\'t mean that his hands are as good as everybody else around him. From watching the Saints since AB\'s arrival, I think it would be safe to say that Horn has shown that his hands are the best on the team. So, my original point was that we should probably try to keep him since he has shown that he can hang on to AB\'s rocket shots.

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...
 

TR????

Deion Branch?????

Joe Horn wants to be a Falcon ...