Re: You're Sean Payton
 

If, and that is a big IF, Wade Phillips does leave Denver, the obvious landing spot would be with the Raiders. The Raiders already have the 3-4 personnel in place, but are apparently very dissatisfied with the way Ken Norton, Jr. has handled the squad.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Wade Phillips would do 10x better with the personel we have now than Allen. It's almost funny Payton with his wisdom of DC's wouldn't want the best. I bet our O would love it.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

An assumption based upon what? Coach Spags has a reputation as one of the best defensive minds in the game today with his 4-3 defenses. Yet, he came into New Orleans with a roster filled with 3-4 personnel and failed miserably. The most likely scenario is that the same would happen with Phillips. Phillips would try to cram the current personnel into his mold. We have experienced this experiment and his was a nightmare. It is not going to happen. Payton isn't that stupid.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Considering the performance of our draft picks, the amount of dead money from cutting players after signing them to nice fat contracts, the number of free agent duds and the revolving door of defensive coordinators.... I, for one, have questioned Payton's sanity on a number of occasions.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Whilst I applauded the Jimmy Graham trade because we got Max Unger, it didn't change the fact that we just crippled ourselves financially in the space of a year because Payton had a change of heart.

Granted I think Brees is a better QB since we traded Graham, but from Graham, to Byrd, to Fleener, to CJ Spiller. How many guys are we going to sign for huge contracts that don't deserve it or will just get released/traded and leave a load of dead money on the books.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

I glad you mentioned dead money. That dead money could have been avoided by simply not cutting those players and keeping them on the roster taking up a needed roster spot while counting MORE toward the cap than the dead money amount. Sometimes it is best to take the hit. You only have 53 roster spots. That is not that many. Not all franchises would do that.

I also agree completely about the defensive coordinators. Some around here must not have a problem with that point as they are wishing that door would take yet another turn. Hopefully Payton has learned that lesson. Just has he has learned from the past draft mistakes. After bringing in Jeff Ireland, the draft results over the past two years have been mush better, don't you agree?

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

That dead money ($41 million) is now off the books. That is history. It has no effect whatsoever with the franchise moving forward. It is irrelevant. The whole point of the thread is about looking to the future. :confused:

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Depending on his interview, his plan, I'd look to Brian Young first for defensive line coach...

I really like the idea of bringing in Mike Singletary as a LBer coach, but would his temperament work under Dennis Allen?

I think it would and his fire and team first mentality would go a long way...

Regarding our kicking game, if Mike Mallory is available, I'd bring him back...

Cheif's Brock Olivo is an assistant on the Chiefs' ST unit, that should interview...

Another guy I'd look to bring in to interview for Special Teams is Marty Biagi who's coached good units at Southern and Notre Dame...

In all likelihood, Kevin O'Dea is already the in-house hire for the kicking game...

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Very true it has no bearing moving forward, but it has played a major part in my opinion in the failure of the last 2 seasons especially.

Fair point though, let's hope those failures are behind us.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Oh, I did not miss your point AT ALL. Goes with the theme.

As far as everyone knows, Wade Phillips is not under contract. And we don't know what's the train thought in Denver, or how their dealings with Wade, if any, are going. However, we do know what large amounts of cash do.

That a false equivalency. For starters, Phillips is not under contract right now, Belichick is. Belichick has a long history of HC'ing with the Pats, Phillips has DC'd in 2 teams the last 6 years.

Says you. Again, Phillips is not under contract. He can talk to any team he wants to. We don't know the situation in Denver. Maybe they are eyeing a HC who wants his own staff, DC included... we don't know. Although we know what large amounts of cash can do in such situations.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

I agree that the draft picks have improved as of late. I also think that the FA's we brought in last year were some of the best since Payton's early years in NO. So, things seem to be heading in the right direction. I don't understand how we signed Galette to a multiyear contract one year and cut him the next because he was a disruptive force in the locker room. Years back, when the Saints were a premier team and people were using the dynasty word, Loomis commented how he and Payton focussed on bringing in athletes with character. Seems that someone lost the ability to diagnose a cancer.

It appears that during Payton's year away from the team has had a long term impact. Hopefully, this will get things in order in time for Brees to get us another ring.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

It was my understanding that Galette was outwardly an ideal teammate the year before the contract and he was the most impactful defensive player. Perhaps getting all of that money let him lower his guard. His low life friends definitely became involved right away. Then that tape of the fight came out where he was beating that chick with a beat buckle. The Saints had no choice. It sucked in every which way, but it was what it was.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

The point that you are missing is that Phillips' scheme doesn't match the Saints personnel at all. Payton has gone down that street before. It will not happen again, even IF Wade was willing to go to a team with no players to fit his scheme. Is it technically possible? Yes, but it makes no sense whatsoever for any of the parties involved. Personally I would be shocked if Elway let him go.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Oh, so yet another point I am missing... ok.

What makes you so sure Phillips' scheme doesn't match Saints personnel at all?
Being how historically bad the Saints defense has been the past few years, a very valid argument can be made that the Saints either don't have the personnel to run what they want to run, or they have no idea what to do with the personnel they have.

Any other point I am missing?

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

I keep seeing this thread. I keep looking in my wallet. It is VERY CLEAR to me I am NOT Sean Payton.

:banana:

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

What Saints personel do you keep talking about? Jordan and Vaccarro? If so they are easily replaced in a trade. Fairleys not under contract and who knows what type of money he wants or if he will be back., so where lies the problem. I bet our #1 pick Anthony balls out sitting next to Ellerbe and Robinson could slide inside and out with Ellerbe and don't think Ediboli isn't good in a 3-4, he is.. Davidson, Rankins and Omy up front, pick up another servicable nose but where we might hurt is the glass secondary we have which is a problem now.. Draft a top cb and pick up a good FA and there is your 3-4 and I'm no Phillip. Ireland could do this scheme quite easily and with Phillips running it, we're instanly back in the hunt and would be insanely better the following year.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Good points there Halloween. Thing is...they aren't going to get rid of DA right now. If they do, I'd be surprised. So whether fans agree with it or not, it's more than likely going to be DA and a 4-3 look. They're not going to bring in Phillips for a defensive assistant job. He's at the very least a DC and possibly a HC if he wants.

I'm willing to give DA another shot to see what he can do with another full off season. I'm really impressed with some of the draft picks and I thought the FA's picked up were serviceable. I'm hopeful that he can turn things around on that side of the ball. In the end, if the Saints aren't successful next season, I think all the coaches are going to be fired anyway. Lol.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

True enough. It always made me go "Hmmm". One minute he was the D captain. The next minute he was cancer and out the door.....with a big bag of cash. Looks like he either did a good job hiding how big a jerk he really was or none of his coaches OR teammates are worth a F as judges of character.

As things worked out, he blew his Achilles 2x. Not to say it would have happened in NO, but he hasn't been of much value to Washington. Sad part is he sits on the bench *****ing about NO while we are writing him a big check. The Saints need to add a clause to the contracts. "You leave and burn the bridge....we burn the checkbook." It may not help the team much but we fans wouldn't have to read/listen to the crap.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

LOL!!

"easily replaced in a trade"

Where did you get that idea? Trading is extremely difficult in the NFL when dealing with player salaries and that is IF you can even find a willing trade partner with something you would want in trade.

But, since Allen isn't going anywhere you can come up with all the fantasy scenarios you want. If you can pretend the Saints could and would pick up Phillips I guess you can also pretend that it could be made to work instead of being yet another disaster that comes from that revolving door at DC as was mentioned earlier.

:clown:

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

First of all, as halloween pointed out, our two, and perhaps as many as our FOUR best defensive players are not 3-4 type players. As he mentioned, we would have to get rid of Cam Jordan and Kenny Vacarro and not retain Fairley. He also assumes that Rankins, who looked like a stud in the 4-3, could seamlessly convert to a NT. He would be wasted at that position.

Now, as for the last few years, in 2012, Coach Spagnuolo attempted to pigeon hole players that were primarily 3-4 players into his strict 4-3. It was a disaster. In comes Rob Ryan in 2013. As he had done previously at Dallas, he introduced a stripped down version of his 3-4. There was enough 3-4 personnel to make it work that first year. In 2014 he fully implemented his defense which to say it is complex is an understatement. The defense looked lost. Some of the players were still more suited to a 4-3, such as Jordan. In 2015 Payton saw that the Ryan experiment wasn't working and brought in Allen. Allen quickly started using players to their strengths. This past season you know what happened with the injuries. Allen is flexible in his scheming, not like Phillips who is strictly a 3-4 coach.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

No, it's more like you always saying we don't have the people to run a 3-4 when we do and never answering the question to justify your post on this particular subject. I see your better with the cap numbers than your judgement of players and schemes and that's not fantasy.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

No, you are assuming that players can easily slide into the quite different duties of the 3-4 with no problem. Yes, there is a handful of players that have played in a 3-4, but our better players either haven't, or have shown that they struggle when they attempted the scheme. Your answer, get rid of those better players and plug everyone else in. And you base it all upon Wade Phillips being able to pull this off starting day one.

Well, there isn't going to be a Wade Phillips so it ain't going to happen, Brother. We won't have the chance to see if it is yet anther total disaster due to once again changing defensive schemes in mid-step or a miraculous transformation with our leftover players and whomever else we can scrape together to field a squad for King Phillips.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

A good example of why changing schemes is a bad idea, watch the Browns next year. They booted there 3-4 DC and brought in Greg Williams and his base 4-3. The Browns have a million draft picks and they are still gonna be the laugh of the league because of choices like that.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

The Browns are going to suck next year because they are the Browns, and when you are the Browns, you suck, because that's what Browns do.

You pick Johnny Football in the first round...you've got bigger problems than what D to run.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Whenever you get down as a Who-Dat just thank your stars you don't hang your hat in the Dawg Pound.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

That's great and all, but still none of it addresses MY point, that this defense has been historically bad for too long, whether it is a 4-3, 3-4, 2-3-2, 1-1-1-1-1-1-1, whatever, that it may take someone who really knows what he's doing to figure out what can be done with what the Saints got.

Also, stop making statements like "Allen is flexible, Phillips is strictly 3-4". Please...

And don't tell me what happened 2013-2014. I saw the games. Ryan's system wasn't complex; on the contrary, his system was so simple, he got figured out, just like he's gotten figured out the next season everywhere he's been.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Sorry, but YOU are wrong.

This ...

Schemed to Death: Rob Ryan's Defense

Dallas Cowboys fired Rob Ryan for too many schemes

I have no idea where you got the idea that Ryan's scheme was simple and "got figured out"? Hell, his own players have had a problem figuring it out wherever he has landed. Why do think his defenses constantly get called for 12 men on the field or only have 10 players out there? It is common knowledge about the complexity of the scheme. He dumbed it WAY down in the first year, 2013. The defense actually had quite a bit of success if you remember right? Fourth ranked in total defense. First in rushing defense. 19th in passing defense. Then in 2014 Ryan fully opened up his playbook and the ****, as usual, hit the fan.

And Allen HAS been very flexible using what he has available to their strengths. Once again, common knowledge.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Of course, of course. Look, you can post all the links to "what sources said" pieces all you want, sprinkled with your own suppositions (which apparently you can do, but you don't like others doing). All you got is a few reporters regurgitating what the son of Jerry Jones (whatever his name is) said about why the Cowboys fired Ryan. Unless "complex" is used to team "undisciplined, and overall not sound".

Of course. No one else does that. Well, maybe 1 or 2 others, but surely not Wade Phillips, no Sir!

I get it. You feel the need to defend Allen. And who knows, Allen may turn out to be the next Bill Belichick.

However, the point still stands: the Saints have 2-3 more years with one of the best QBs in the history of the NFL. Do you at least take a shot at luring one of the best DCs around, who is currently not signed, with a proven track record spawning several years on different teams, or do you go with the unproven commodity?

Personally, I'd at least try to get the proven commodity in here. If he tells me "no thanks" or "it'd take me a couple years to get the players I need", ok, then...

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

'.......to discover in the end, he's been taken by the shills"

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

The fact is, like it or not, Allen isn't going anywhere this years Like it or not, THAT is the point.

And I'm not regurgitating what a reporter is saying. Some of those quotes were from Payton himself. Anyone that isn't blind could see the confusion out there during 2014 and the first half of 2015. The substitution scheme was so complex that the players, and their positional coaches, couldn't keep up with it. The exact same thing happened in Dallas. That is a fact whether you admit it or not. The same thing was happening in Buffalo this season. I saw it happening there. I watched quite a few Buffalo games this season because of fantasy players on both my teams and my wife's team. There were a number of occasions with 10 or 12 players out there on defense. That is due to the complexity of the scheme. Plain as day.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Ok. I agree, but if that be the case, what in holy hell was Payton thinking when he brought Ryan in as DC when you consider the cluster*** he ran at Dallas.

They watch video of college prospects and FAs. You would think we would have watched film of Dallas's D and witnessed that Ryan was basically the ringmaster and their D was a circus. I think helped Dallas was they had more talent than NO did during Ryan's tenure. That likely help mask the chaos.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

My only guess is that he wanted to make a big splash after Coach Spags bombed so badly the year before. I also think THAT is why he is sticking with Allen and not bringing in another "big splash" like Phillips. What the Saints need is stability with their defense. A second full year of Dennis Allen should bring that. "Gelling" isn't only the players getting to know each others abilities on the field, but it is also getting to know the coach's tendencies.

Regardless how great Wade Phillips might be, I would expect a second full season in a row under Allen would be more successful than, going through yet another new coach and defensive scheme. Obviously, Payton is viewing it the same way.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

If this seasons D blows chunks Brees should demand a trade plain and simple.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

If this sessions D blows chunks I will still follow and pull in 2018 plain and simple ... WhoDat since 09/1967!

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

So will I but he deserves help. The O has done it's part over and over and over can't expect him to pull a rabbit out of his hat every game. He has did his part.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

This is turning out to be "thread of the month".

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

I believe that Drew is smart and has prepared for leaving the Saints if we don't finally get a defense. He won't need to demand a trade because I think he is in the final year of his contract extension. If things get better in New Orleans he can sign a contract depending on how much better the defense is and the team plays as a whole.

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

I figure he wants to be here and finish here, and "I" believe he will.

But he could leave should he determine the Saints aren't serious. I think we are. I don't think Sean has lost his fire or the team. I think we can all be legitimately excited about next year. Knocking off the Failcones is going to be big fun.

:bng:

Re: You're Sean Payton
 

Rugby, something has to give about Payton fielding the type of D's. It's hard to even imagine Payton being able to slice thriugh D's with the way his O has year in and year out and not being able to field a D that at the least compliments the O. Brees needs help and Payton gives it to him on the O but has never give him much help at all on the D, it's got to get old playing your heart out and ending up with a losing record year after year, in ways kind of reminds me when Manning was under center. Our O runs into some really good D's sometimes and they do struggle, it happens but to watch(even on TV) a game which in no way we can win because we can,'t stop another O from scoring, it's got to hit home for Brees. I admit I don't like Allen and think if he didn't have Sharper he wouldn't have got a sniff at DC and now he's our DC. I got my reasons for not believing in him.