GoldenTomb

I woulda been all over this but 08 beat me to it.

Yeah those things can\'t be directly attributed to AB but bearing those pearly whites after each one of those things is what he does instead of giving people the cursing out that they deserve. I even saw ol\' mild mannered Peyton Manning get in the face of Reggie Wayne during one of their games. I\'m sure that everyone on the Colts knows that if you\'re in Manning\'s doghouse, then you\'re in the team\'s doghouse. AB can have that same pull around here, but he just doesn\'t give a damn.

Gumbo you and so many other people on here are all about the stats. There is no stat for leadership, heart, intelligence, or player savvy. Can you honestly say that your Brooks has these things. He is about as far as you can get on talent alone.

Guys....Gumbo won\'t be responding because there\'s no argument for him here. There are people INSIDE the organization are doubting Brooks. I don\'t see any material for a quality rebuttal.

GumboBC

Ummm... I suppose leadership could be what\'s holding this team back. Maybe having a verteran QB with great leadership qualities would get some of the underachieving players to step their game up.

Maybe it was a mistake to let Victor Riley get away. Riley certainly had the skills to be a very good RT. Maybe he just need some veteran leadership to get him to perform.

Now that I think about it, maybe it was a mistake to let Tebucky Jones get away. Maybe Tebucky just needed someone to hold him accountable.

Sedrick Hodge and James Allen ... It\'s no telling what a little leadership could do for their careers.

Jonathan Sullivan ... just image for a moment if we could find the right leader to get this guy motivated.

Yeah, that\'s it. We need some leadership on this team and the rest of the NFL had better look out. \\

Inspiration, Leadership, Motivation, Confidence, ...

I\'ll have an order to go, with fries!!

xan

In a way, I agree with Gumbo. But hear me out.

In order for there to be effective leadership, there must be a consequence for not following. There must be some downside associated with not putting in the hours of practice and planning and not executing.

There are few players on the Saints for whom non-comliance will result in reduced playing time, reduced featuring. While there is a limit to how that can play out, watching the moves the coaching staff made by allowing underperformers to hold onto their spots gives the impression that non-winning behaviors and sub-par performances are tolerated. It\'s worse when it\'s a high profile skill player. What messages are sent to the team by allowing Brooks to continue to play hurt (or stupid)? What message does it send when Deuce is inserted hurt when Stecker was a more than adequate replacement? How does it look when you release a practice squad player for the same (and simultaneous) infraction that another player gets no punishment for?

This game is about winning. Those moves (and countless others) send a message that some things are more important than winning. If I\'m on a team and we\'re not committed to winning, then all I\'m going to do is make sure I don\'t get hurt until I can get the hell out to a team that is.

Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger."
Hobbes: "Common lament."

WhoDat

Xan - I think Billy\'s point is that leadership is worthless. So is a good GM, good coach, and a good RB, WR, defense and O-line are only important when you\'re evaluating how good a QB is. Otherwise, nothing else matters. The Saints will be 13-3 this year. The Saints will be 13-3 this year. The Saints will be 13-3 this year. Oceania has always been at war with East Asia.

GumboBC

Leadership worthless? Never said that, WhoDat. Still making things up I see.. Hey, that\'s cool ... You gotta do what ya gotta do ...

It\'s not like leadership hasn\'t been discussed at length on this site.

But, for the newcomers who think leadership is the cure-all ... I think you are misguided.

Donavan McNabb isn\'t noted for being a leader. Maybe he is now .. but that surly hasn\'t been the case in the past. Mike Vick isn\'t known as a leader, either. Niether the Falcons nor Eagles have struggled too much with their QBs.

Now, I\'m sure their are a bunch of 20/20 hind-sight guys who knew all along that Donavan McNabb was a great leader. Yeah .... RIGHT !!!

In fact, if you want to look at RESULTS ... McNabb has led his team much further than what Peyton Manning has managed to do.

I COULD make the case the Colts lack leadership and that\'s why they can\'t get over the hump. Even one of his own teammates suggest that very thing.

But, I\'m no fool. The Colts lack talent on defense and their all time great offense can\'t overcome it.





[Edited on 22/3/2005 by GumboBC]

Danno

Whats with all the venom dudes?
Ya\'ll sound like a bunch of high schoolers.

xan

Here I don\'t agree with Gumbo...

I don\'t think that McNabb is as good a leader as Coach Andy Reid is a leader and strategist. He\'s the ones pulling the strings in that organization and he doesn\'t take any c&*p from anyone- it\'s his way or your cut. McNabb\'s just proficient (and he doesn\'t make idiotic mistakes).

If I played defense, I\'d fear Payton Manning, because he\'s smart enough to see what I\'m doing and capable of communicating what he wants the team to do in reaction. And he\'s right the vast majority of the time. Feared, great judgment, good communicator = LEADER. But if I were him, I\'d throw a little of that gluttonous contract money back into the system for a few more good defenders. His team won 12 games with a D that was dueling the Saints D for worst in the league.

Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger."
Hobbes: "Common lament."

GumboBC

So, basically what you\'re are saying is that great leadership isn\'t needed at the QB position?

At least you\'re are admitting that the Eagles and Falcons don\'t need it. And both the Eagles and Falcons have enjoyed more success than Peyton Manning and the Colts.

And let\'s carry this further. Mark Bulger or Mike Martz aren\'t considered leaders of the Rams. Yet, they make the playoffs every year. How could that be?

Is Matt Hasselbeck a good leader?

Facts are facts ... and I see no good evidence that Peyton is any more of a leader than Donavan McNabb. All I see is Peyton hanging his head after he blows a playoff game. And I saw that for a while with Donavan McNabb too.

Maybe it\'s not leadership at all that\'s responsible for a team\'s success. Maybe it just takes the right combination of players and coaches? That could be it!!

xan

Gumbo, while you missed the point entirely, I will try to make it obvious as I clearly didn\'t before.

If I ever imply that great (at a minimum) leadership is NOT a requirement of the QB position, you have my permission to remove my feeding tube.

Leaders know what they are doing, understand the ramifications and communicate the plan so that everyone\'s on the same page. Those who deviate from the plan are either herded back into the fold or cut loose.

Do you think that Payton Manning knows what he\'s doing when he plays? Is he effective? Do his players believe that he will deliver and sacrifice for the team? Does ha enforce his will on the team?

Do you think that Brooks knows what he\'s doing when he plays? Is he effective communicating what he wants to do? Do his players believe he will sacrifice for his team? Does he inforce his will on the team?

You bring up Bulger/Martz. They made the playoffs more than the Saints did, won more games, scored more points, kept more players happy (except for Turley.) Gotta be leading there to get that accomplished. Bulger\'s 27-12 as a starter, with 2 playoff appearances and won more playoff games than the Brooks led Saints in the last 3 years. And that\'s with and arguably terrible defense just like the Saints. Like you said, facts are facts.

I know nothing of Hasselbeck, other than he made the playoffs and made the Brooks led Saints look inept by comparison last season (including in the only game I got to watch in person).

Calvin: "I wish I was a Tiger."
Hobbes: "Common lament."

saintswhodi

Just a little insight on Hasselbeck xan, his receivers drop WAY more balls than ours, line is just as bad, and defense is not so great. Their best receiver spent half the year with his head in the clouds, and 4 games suspended for drug issues. SO they had to get Jerry Rice. Woulda beat the Rams in the playoffs had his receiver not dropped ANOTHER pass in the endzone at the end of the game that would have won it. I wish he would have hit the open market and we coulda took a run at him. Just a little about Hass.