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Attention Horn bashers
The Times-Picayune reports WR Joe Horn said, regarding a new deal, he is even willing to include a clause in the contract that would return money to the team if his production doesn't merit his pay. "If they give me a contract that's equal to the top two or three guys in the league and I'm not producing, then I would be willing to sign on the dotted line to give the money back to the organization," Horn said. "I think that's fair. "I love New Orleans. I want to retire here. I want them to hang my jersey up in the Superdome one day. I don't want to play anywhere else. That's why I want to get a deal done. But I want to be paid what I feel I deserve." Saints HC Jim Haslett said Sunday he expects all of the veterans to report today with the exception of about three or four with excused absences.
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Attention Horn bashers
Aww... how cute. What a team player! Pay the man 6 mil a year for 3 years and let\'s get on with this. As long as he doesn\'t ask for another raise next year... like he\'s been doing since forever.
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Attention Horn bashers
That works for me.
Can they include reductions for blasting the fans, or pulling the look-at-me stunts that cost his teammates? Sort of a \"team-player\" clause. |
Attention Horn bashers
Wasn\'t this statement already beaten up? Even if he does give the money back, IT DOESN\"T CHANGE THE CAP HIT THE TEAM WILL HAVE ALREADY TAKEN!!! :bandhead:
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Attention Horn bashers
This was posted a few days ago.
Joe loves to grand-stand. Let\'s play that game Joe. Let\'s guarantee you NO money and make it ALL incentive based? What do you say Joe Horn? |
Attention Horn bashers
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Attention Horn bashers
[/quote:5025e0555e]These circular discussions are very similar to the 7 zillion Brooks debates huh? [/quote:5025e0555e]
Ever notice how this message board doesn\'t have any trolls to distract our attention. :shrug: |
Attention Horn bashers
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It\'s odd to me...Horn can catch a TD, celebrate..and It\'s unsightly... Brooks can fumble, throw a pic, or a backwards pass...smile about it..and it\'s ok... Horn can go to 4 Pro Bowls..and He sucks.. Brooks can go to 0 Pro Bowls, and He rules... I guess I\'ll never understand... |
Attention Horn bashers
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Attention Horn bashers
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Last time I heard, He was fined for his \'\'Look at me\'\'stunts... What more do you want? It\'s becoming more apparant that some of you guys just flat out don\'t like Horn..Doesn\'t matter how He performs on the field...or that he is willing to back up the things he says he can do by giving money back if he doesn\'t perform up to his and the teams standards, even though no other player anywhere is willing to do the same.....Doesn\'t matter... |
Attention Horn bashers
Wow, I just changed my mind about old Joe when I read those comments. It seems like we\'ve had Joe all wrong all this time. It turns out we were wrong about him after all. All this time we were thinking Jo Jo wanted top 5 money when all he ever wanted was top 2 or 3. What a class act that Joe Horn is! He\'s even willing to give some of the money back if he doesn\'t perform. I\'m ashamed that I once called this great man a selfish, me first player. Look up the meaning of class, and that\'s Joe Itawamba Horn. Look up the word facetious, and that\'s what I\'m being.
Earth to Joe...Earth to Joe...Come in Joe. Has the man ever heard of something called the salary cap? Does he think that this organization that he loves so much can afford to pay a 33 year old receiver top three money? I know that Marvin is 32, but Marvin is on another level compared to Horn. Joe is talking about having his jersey hung in the Superdome one day. That\'s cool and all but by the time Joe gets through with the team they won\'t be able to pay anybody to go up and hang it! I\'m sure Joe would glady do that for free since he loves the team so much. Here\'s the deal, Joe Horn is a great receiver. He\'s the best we got, he\'s the best we\'ve ever had, and he might just be the best we\'ll ever have. But as great as Joe is, he\'s not as great as he thinks he is. He\'s no Marvin Harrison, T.O. and he sure as heck isn\'t Randy Moss. As a matter of fact there are quite a few receivers who are better than Horn. The guy has lost it. Is it just me or did he just SIGN a big contract not to long ago? I could\'ve swore he AGREED to a really nice contract recently. My how the time has flown, seems like only yesterday. This one\'s for you Joe, a true hero for Saints fans everywhere :eck05: |
Attention Horn bashers
hahahahahahahahaha....
OK... Go and get Horn\'s numbers, along with Moss\' and Harrison\'s from last year...and compare them..then come back and tell me again how He\'s \'\'lost it\'\', or that he\'s not even in the same league as those guys.... Numbers talk..Bull**** walks... I would just go get them myself, but, I allready know what they are...we have done this a hundred times over...and the numbers are always the same... I have a bet for you...if your so convinced Horn has \'\'lost it\'\'...I say he will lead the team in receiving , again...As long as He can play at least 12 out of the 16 scheduled games...if I\'m wrong, I\'ll NEVER post on here again..and I\'ll go so far as to request an IP ban , ensuring I hold true to my word... IF, and when Horn does infact lead the team again...you do the same... You in?...That bet is open to ANY person on this board...Put yor money where your mouth is... Unless...your ..scared?..hahaha [Edited on 23/3/2005 by shadowdrinker] |
Attention Horn bashers
Shadowdrinker, who the heck else would lead the team in receptions? Like I said Horn is a great WR and by far the best we have. I know this. Yes he puts up great numbers every year. But I\'m starting to see that all that matters to some people on this board is numbers. Numbers do talk, but sometimes they tell a misleading story. Like in the case of Horn. He puts up great numbers for three reasons: 1. He\'s a great receiver with a great skill set 2. He\'s the number one receiver in an offense that passes alot 3. He\'s the only WR that Brooks can trust. He\'s the only one who has the hands to catch 8 out of 10 passes thrown to him. Who else is Brooks going to throw to. Since you like stats so much, here\'s one to look at. How many passes are thrown to Horn compared to other top receivers. If I had to bet I\'d say that he gets more balls thrown to him than alot of the other top guys. I might be wrong because I\'ve never looked at that stat. If I am so what, would\'ve been a good point.
With the amount of passes getting thrown his way, of course he\'s going to put up good numbers. Here\'s a simple equation for you stat man...A great WR + alot of balls being thrown his way = good numbers. It\'s that simple. But while we\'re on stats, how about this one, YAC. Compare Joe\'s YAC to some of the other top dogs. I guess you\'ll say that the YAC stat isn\'t very important. Some people on here wield numbers like they are the end all weapon for debate. Wrong. Stats can be used as a weapon but they can also be turned against you. Nobody who has any basic football sense would sit here and try to defend the posistion that Joe Horn is as good a player as Moss, T.O., Marvin, etc., etc. You can take your little stats, numbers, and silly analysis and use that against some nerd who knows nothing about football. Maybe they will be impressed by your data, but not me. The only thing that stats mean anything in is fantasy. Last year I dropped Jerry Porter and picked up Brandon Stokley because he was putting up better numbers. Does that mean that Stokley is a better receiver than Jerry Porter? :whip: |
Attention Horn bashers
If numbers are irrelevant..How do you measure success? How do you compare? How do you grade anything at all?
In Fantasy world , your theories may hold some validity, but not in the real World... My guess is, You went and compared those numbers...saw you were wrong, and insited that numbers are now meaningless... You said Horn has lost it...I left it to you to prove that statment...and you have not... Saying a guy gets more catches becuse He gets more balls thrown to him is your Defense?...Of course He gets more passes thrown to him..He\'s the best receiver we have...what do you expect them to do? That\'s a weak position to take... Every single aspect of Football is numbers based...Weight, Leverage..Speed..Timing....and STATS... I\'m not the only guy in the World who grades performance based on production..It\'s pretty much a Global concept... [Edited on 23/3/2005 by shadowdrinker] |
Attention Horn bashers
Bignic You are just reaching with all that BS....
I got a couple of non Number/Stat things for you to chew on.. Give Horn Peyton Manning, and see how his YAC will increase when he gets balls thrown to him in stride..... Secondly Moss is a better Physical speciman, BUT!!!!!!!!!! I would not have his trashy @ss on My team, Joe is classy, Owens Is probably the best in the league, But he is still somewhat cancerous in my opinion, So Yes I say Joe is Right there With Harrison!!!!!!!!!!! You Let Horn and Harrison switch teams and lets see who does better.... I will put my money on Horn any time............... |
Attention Horn bashers
Incoming Danno in 3...2...
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Attention Horn bashers
I just think it\'s ridiculous how so many \'\'fans\'\' can hold one of our dearest players in History to such unreasonable standards?
Let him play for the league minimum, or on a purley incentive based deal...and when he does make good, he should just walk away without so much as a smirk..remarks like that really seem harsh to me.. Why are so many people biased toward our greatest Offensive player in History? Why would He be held to standards no other player in the history of Football have had to endure? Is it all because He\'s 33? People age..it doesn\'t make them less of a person...But apparantly to some, it does... Do you go to work and expect a raise after years of service?..Hell yes you do..and you should... Would YOU be prepared to sign a contract stating if your production didn\'t meet forcast that YOU would take a pay cut?..No..you wouldn\'t...and you shouldn\'t.. Has he not been productive at a pace equal , or greater than some of the elite in the League?..Yes, He has... So why the heck is Horn suppose to do all these things that noone else on the Planet would be expected to do? |
Attention Horn bashers
I used to be on the Saints side when it comes to this matter.....until i heard on WWL that the last time he did a contract he(joe) and his agent wanted to do a long-term deal and the Saints said to do the deal he has now and if his production is good-enough they would re-do it after a couple of years. Sounds like the Saints should keep their promise. They also said on the radio that the Saints did not deny sayin that!!!
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Attention Horn bashers
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Attention Horn bashers
Because we do not want to pay him in the top 1 or 2 receivers makes us Horn bashers. How old is Joe -- hjow old is Moss, Harrisson, Owens etc. I would say Horn deserves a raise -- I would agree that he deserves some significant guaranteed money -- but not to the tune of one of the top 2 receivers. Stats are just great for comparison -- but to sign a contract in the future means you have to judge his future productivity. In my mind he will only be a top tier receiver for 2 years not 6. Pay him that way --
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Attention Horn bashers
Danno, 4saintspirit I\'m glad that there are a few other rational people on this board with me.
It\'s sad that you can\'t even state an opinion about Joe Horn without being called a Horn Hater. Anytime anybody says anything about the guy some stat guy comes out of the woodwork with a bunch of stats comparing him to the top receivers. Shadow, how many times do I have to say this, Joe Horn is a great receiver! I know he\'s the best weapon we\'ve ever had! I know he puts up great numbers! But it\'s pretty shallow of you to think that just because he\'s the best we\'ve ever had somehow that makes him the the best WR in the league. Most of the comments about Joe are very simple. Some don\'t feel like he\'s one of the top three receivers in the league. Some don\'t feel like he should get a top three, or even top five contract. Some don\'t feel like Joe has alot of class or that he\'s a good leader. But I have yet to see a post saying that Joe Horn isn\'t a good receiver. I think we\'re pretty much all in agreement on the fact that Joe is and has been a great player for our team. Everyone knows that he puts up very good stats. But then some guy comes along and takes those simple comments and tries to twist them into us saying that Joe sucks. Joe doesn\'t suck as a football player! Anyone who says otherwise is either trying to get stuff started or simply doesn\'t have a clue. For the last time Joe is great! Just not as great as he thinks he is. Not as great as you guys think he is. And certainly not as great as Moss, T.O. or Marvin. Sure Moss and T.O. suck as people and have no class, but they are the two best receivers in this league period! Regardless of what your numbers say. |
Attention Horn bashers
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Here\'s a real interesting question: why do you guys think there is an inverse relationship b/w Horn and Brooks in terms of support amongst Saints fans? Those who tend to be \"pro-Horn\" (me), tend to be \"anti-Brooks.\" Those who are \"pro-Brooks\" (Billy), tend to be \"anti-Horn.\" Then there are guys like Danno who hate them both. :) Why do you think that is? |
Attention Horn bashers
bignic, I am gonna warn you off of this one. shadow is as stubborn as a mule, and any argument you are gonna make is not gonna make a dent in how he sees thing. I don\'t know if shadow is a 60 year old vietnam vet who has seen it all and ain\'t listening to crap else, or is he is a stubborn 16 year old who just refuses to change his mind, but you might as well give up. I still love ya shadow, but it\'s true. ;)
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Attention Horn bashers
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I think I just hate offense. I think I\'d have made a good linebacker (6-0, 225), if it weren\'t for that lack of talent thingy... and a 4.9 40. |
Attention Horn bashers
I\'m a little unclear on a few things, so maybe you guys can clear them up:
(1) What does Joe Horn shooting his mouth off about his contract have to do with his ability to play football? Other guys know that at contract time, you do what you can to get a good contract - surely, other PROFESSIONAL football players will get over what Horn said and get back to playing ball the minute the contract is signed. (2) Joe should shut the f-up. Is there anyone who doesn\'t think that? On and off the field, he does stuff that hurts the team (penalties and general embarassment). (3) With no other proven WRs, is there anyone who thinks we should just let Joe go (or maybe get a fancy puck-bag for him)? I\'m willing to bet that there isn\'t. Joe Horn\'s trade value can\'t be all that good this offseason; Edge is fetching a whoping 2nd round pick. (4) A long term contract for Joe will lower his cap number THIS year. How great is that? What do we need the money for? The big-name guys we need are gone from FA (except maybe a corner). (5) The deal I\'ve seen for Joe will make his cap number 5.5 mil in three years - now that is a lot for a 36 year old WR. However, if we just cut him, like people suggest, then our cap hit will be in the 3.5 mil range - even if he is not on the roster. Does that sound good? (6) Does anyone really think a player is going to sign a contract for the minimum with a lot of incentives? I sure don\'t. There is a reason these things are called \"incentives\" and not \"pay\". This idea is a dream, IMO. Joe is not going to give the money back, and even if he does that won\'t help anyone but Benson, since we\'ll still be stuck with his cap number. Furthermore, incentive based contracts, I\'m sure have some calculation for the cap - and I\'m willing to bet that it comes out about the same. In the end, I\'m ambivalent about Joe. I think that he is a good WR, and I certainly don\'t mind having him on this team. I think over the next two years he is worth more on the team than off it. However, he may be cap friendly this year, but that time will be ending soon. At any rate, there are way bigger problems on this team than WR - LB for example. [Edited on 23/3/2005 by JKool] |
Attention Horn bashers
Exactly JKool. That\'s kinda like what I\'m thinking. Nobody is saying that we don\'t need Joe or that he\'s not good. All I\'m trying to say is that Joe isn\'t a top 3 receiver and he shouldn\'t be paid like one. If he keeps demanding that kind of money and if he won\'t be happy here unless he gets it, we need to maybe think about other options.
What are our options? Well let\'s take a look. 1. Trade him. I really don\'t think that would be the smartest thing to do this year. We don\'t have a replacement and with the current market the trade value just wouldn\'t be there. 2. Cut him. Again, no replacement. I\'ve said before that we should cut him and just take the cap hit, but why take the hit when we could just keep him. If he\'s not holding out and he\'s gonna play, then why not keep a pro bowl WR. 3. We could show Joe the money!!! Just not the money he wants. If he and the FO could meet half way on a reasonable contract, Joe could retire as a Saint. I think deep down we would all like to see that happen. No matter what we may say, deep down we all love Joe. :heartpump: :icon_bs: |
Attention Horn bashers
Good post Kool...
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Attention Horn bashers
Kools post and dannos response both are fairly accurate. Personally I do not see a relationship between Horn\'s mouth and his play or pay. While detrimental I do not think it has come to the point of becoming a cancer to our team. Nor do I think he should sign for little loaded with incentives -- BUT I also do not think he should get top 1 or 2 money in a guaranteed bonus all up front loaded. Give him a decent signing bonus (guaranteed money) for 1 year and spread the other bonuses over the remaing years -- that way he plays like a top 5 he gets a bonus like a top fiver -- if not he can become a salary cap casulty.
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Attention Horn bashers
Great post Kool. You\'re wrong, Joe is God, but otherwise good. LOL :)
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Attention Horn bashers
\'\'As a matter of fact there are quite a few receivers who are better than Horn. The guy has lost it\'\' - Bignic
Like I said...Prove that statement... \'\'Anytime anybody says anything about the guy some stat guy comes out of the woodwork with a bunch of stats comparing him to the top receivers.\'\' -- Bignic How are you suppose to compare without the use of FACTS? FACT is..Horn IS one of the top receivers in the League...He may fall this year..He may not, I doubt you have pshycic powers..So, How could you know without a doubt that He has \'\'lost it\'\'? That\'s all I\'m saying... How can you possibly have a discussion about Football without the use of Stats?...especially in a comparison scenario? \'\'Joe doesn\'t suck as a football player! Anyone who says otherwise is either trying to get stuff started or simply doesn\'t have a clue.\'\' -- Bignic But, You yourself said he has\'\'lost it\'\'...Whatever \'\'it\'\' implies, He has, according to you, somehow gotten worse, and He just had his best year ever... [Edited on 23/3/2005 by shadowdrinker] |
Attention Horn bashers
Joe Horn and Jerry Rice have very simular stats over a 4 year period. I think Joe Horn is just as good as Jerry Rice.
And I\'ve got STATS to prove it. Don\'t make me bust out my stats. This ridiculous post is brought to the board to combat the popular logic of the Joe Horn LOVERS... [Edited on 23/3/2005 by GumboBC] |
Attention Horn bashers
Shadow you misunderstood. I meant lost it as in he\'s lost his mind, not his ability. I mean he\'s crazy for asking for top 3 money. I know he\'s one of the top receivers, just not one of the top 2 or 3 in the league.
I\'m not saying stats are useless in discussion. They are needed to compare players as far as production. But you can\'t base an argument about who\'s a better player on stats alone. For example, Muhsin Muhammad had better numbers than Horn, Moss, T.O., Harrison and every other receiver in the NFL. So by your logic one could assume that Muhammad is the best receiver in the league. And don\'t give me any BS about \"well you can\'t go by just last years stats\". If you want to determine who\'s a better player based on numbers alone then you can\'t make up new rules as you go. Here\'s another example, Marty Booker. A few years ago Marty was putting up great numbers. I guess back then you would call him GREAT because of his numbers. Now what is he? A freaking bum. Was he a great WR? No, but he was the only option in the passing attack so he put up some numbers. But if you go by your logic Marty was a great WR because of his stats. Once again I have proven that stats can be misleading. Numbers should be handled with care. Sometimes if you use them to much they get turned around on you and blow up in your face. ;) |
Attention Horn bashers
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I love you, man.... :clap: ...and Stokley is better than Porter :) |
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Attention Horn bashers
WhoDat
Joe Horn is just as good as Jerry Rice. Just look at the damn stats. Don\'t be telling me I\'m a fool for saying it either. LOOK AT THE DAMN STATS. NUFF SAID!! |
Attention Horn bashers
What\'s wrong Billy? Lose the goggle? Run out of Tang? I\'m sure by tomorrow your passion for unbridled and unfounded optimism will return. Fear not, you\'ll be predicting 13-3 in no time!
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Attention Horn bashers
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NUFF SAID! NUFF SAID! NUFF SAID! NUFF SAID! NUFF SAID! |
Attention Horn bashers
hahahaha
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Attention Horn bashers
Amazingly, this isn\'t much different than how you normally argue.
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Attention Horn bashers
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Why can\'t I use the SAME stats to prove Joe Horn is just as good as Jerry Rice.? |
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