Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11

K Major · 04-16-2017, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by halloween 65

He's damn good there is no denying that, much more potential than players going higher than him.

You don't draft potential at pick 11. You draft production and hope for the best.

jeanpierre · 04-16-2017, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

You don't draft potential at pick 11. You draft production and hope for the best.

I'd take that a step further, you draft an impact, immediate starter at No. 11 and a ProBowler within two seasons...

And if you're just hoping for the best with the pick and not being confident and right with the pick, you need another vocation...

SaintFanInATLHELL · 04-16-2017, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

The running game has lots of room for improvement as it was only 16th in the NFL in RuYd/game (19th in attempts)...

Oh goodness. Now you are channeling my brother, who consistently makes these same arguments. I'll give the same response here that I give to him: Running the football isn't in the Payton/Carmichael/Brees offensive DNA. As much as the three give lip service to wanting to run the ball, their actions belie that lip service.

You can see that in Ingram's running efficiency. 1043 yards in a little over 200 carries for a 5.1 YPC. That's why are 16th in yd/gm while 19th in attempts.

Having a better running game would allow us to improve our Time of Possession, and that limits the exposure of the defense...

Logic continues that limiting the exposure of the defense translates to fewer allowed yardage and opposing scoring opportunities...

All true. Except Payton, Brees and company are simply not going to do it. We have 10 seasons of evidence. In that span there were 2 1000+ yard rushers, and 2 with more than 200 attempts in a season.

So while logically it makes sense to run the ball, it's not going to happen.

Haven't been the biggest Ingram fan since we drafted him in the first round using a first and a second round pick to acquire him...

And it only took him nearly five years to actually have an impact in the Saints offensive scheme...

But to hang it all on Ingram is erroneous at best as we were only 19th in rushing attempts last season...

Exactly. Ingram has become a productive, efficient, all around back. The team has already invested the draft picks and the extension dollars to get him to this point. So to me, throwing him aside and trying to slot someone new is nonsensical.

Not to mention that we were running a 3-guard rotation to keep Jahri Evans fresh and Peat was having to play LT...

I do believe Payton needs a complimentary RB, and McCaffrey looks to be the ideal choice in this draft...

FIFY. But note that even if the Saints took McCaffery, it would not improve the running game. Payton would take his new toy and shuffle him in the backfield, the slot, and out wide. He would swing passes to him in the flat, and throw PT type screens to him. He would be as much a running back in this offense as Reggie Bush was. And absolutely none of those rushing numbers you quoted at the top would change, because as I stated it's not in the Saints offensive DNA to do so.

But we also could use another young guard in addition to the Warford FA signing, a Grubbs salve signing for failing on Zeitler...

But at what cost? Spend a #32 or #42 on a guy that won't likely start on an offense that may need the depth, but really isn't a position of need?

The team did a solid job of shoring up the roster Pre-Draft; and as deep as this draft is, we have options with our first five picks...

Of course with the Saints draft DNA, they will exercise those options. In each of the last three years the Saints have taken an offensive player in one of the first 2 rounds. So I know my hope that they will stock up on defensive talent that can be brought in and coached up so that the defense can function as and effective standalone unit in the seasons to come is completely unrealistic.

So if we took McCaffrey with the 11th pick, I wouldn't panic or blink unless we didn't have an add'l DE after pick 76...

I would flip out if players like Barnett or Foster were on the board at 11.

SFIAH

jeanpierre · 04-16-2017, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

FIFY. But note that even if the Saints took McCaffery, it would not improve the running game. Payton would take his new toy and shuffle him in the backfield, the slot, and out wide. He would swing passes to him in the flat, and throw PT type screens to him. He would be as much a running back in this offense as Reggie Bush was. And absolutely none of those rushing numbers you quoted at the top would change, because as I stated it's not in the Saints offensive DNA to do so.
But at what cost? Spend a #32 or #42 on a guy that won't likely start on an offense that may need the depth, but really isn't a position of need?

True, but there would be multiple ways to deliver the ball to the RB McCaffrey and the end result still would be longer, sustained drives, greater time of possession, minimizing the time the defense has to be on the field...

jeanpierre · 04-16-2017, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

But at what cost? Spend a #32 or #42 on a guy that won't likely start on an offense that may need the depth, but really isn't a position of need?

Didn't say we necessarily need to draft a guard at those two spots, just that we need a young guard or offensive tackle to start developing when/if Peat has to kick out to one of the OTs...

jeanpierre · 04-16-2017, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

Of course with the Saints draft DNA, they will exercise those options. In each of the last three years the Saints have taken an offensive player in one of the first 2 rounds. So I know my hope that they will stock up on defensive talent that can be brought in and coached up so that the defense can function as and effective standalone unit in the seasons to come is completely unrealistic.

My brother, you need to take a breath and slide over to Seer's Coaching Replacements thread...

We do have defensive talent on this team; we had an unusually high percentage of starters lost during a transition to new scheme season...

Plus, as I said on the new coaches thread, the new hires are getting overlooked by everyone except the competition; this may be the most talented, well, the best coaching staff of the Payton era...

Stephone Anthony came in as a rookie and nearly took defensive rookie of the year honors - look for him and other players' game to elevate under Mike Nolan, Ryan Nielsen guidance...

jeanpierre · 04-16-2017, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

All true. Except Payton, Brees and company are simply not going to do it. We have 10 seasons of evidence. In that span there were 2 1000+ yard rushers, and 2 with more than 200 attempts in a season.

So while logically it makes sense to run the ball, it's not going to happen.

There's truth in what you say in Payton's nature as has been on display for 10+ seasons...

And that's why a back like McCaffrey would be more successful than a back like Fournette...

And suppose we do go RB at No. 11 and McCaffrey and Fournette are on the board, can you imagine picking up the top 3rd pick because Cleveland would be worried about not getting Fournette if we traded out?

Seer1 · 04-16-2017, 12:35 PM

And if they're both gone, here's your sleeper pick: Samuel out of tOSU. He's a little smaller, but I think faster and would be better at that really short pass stuff we used to do with Bush and Sproles. He was usually a bright spot even when the Buckeye offense was moving at the speed of smell. Watch some of his highlights and see what you think.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 04-16-2017, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

True, but there would be multiple ways to deliver the ball to the RB McCaffrey and the end result still would be longer, sustained drives, greater time of possession, minimizing the time the defense has to be on the field...

I hear you. I just don't believe that's the proper path to being a consistently winning organization. The reason being that if the defense cannot hold its own, then the opposition will do exactly the same thing to our defense.

Defensively the Saint need to be able to get offenses off the field on 3rd down, play tough in the red zone, and gather up a few turnovers. None of those can be helped by the offense. That can be helped by disruptive defensive linemen, LBs that can stop the run and cover TEs and backs, and DBs that can cover, break up passes, and catch the ball when it hits them in the hands.

The Saints offense playing complementary football is wishful thinking. The solution isn't to improve the offense to cover a inadequate defense. The solution is to field an adequate defense that complements the productive and explosive offense we already have.

SFIAH

halloween 65 · 04-16-2017, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

You don't draft potential at pick 11. You draft production and hope for the best.

Since he's not going at 11, no worries then. The only player at 11 that is a solid sure thing is OJ, players like Foster, Barnett and I'll even throw Peppers in there, you hoping for the best but each of those have potential. So do we draft a sure thing or a player with potential at 11?

View Poll Results: If Sean Payton himself were to phone you and asks "who would you take?", what would be you
DE Derek Barnett	13	30.23%
RB Leonard Fournette	2	4.65%
LB Reuben Foster	18	41.86%
SS Jamal Adams	1	2.33%
RB Christian McCaffrey	2	4.65%
DE Taco Charlton	4	9.30%
Other (List in Comments)	3	6.98%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

04-16-2017, 09:35 AM	#131
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,624 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by halloween 65 He's damn good there is no denying that, much more potential than players going higher than him. You don't draft potential at pick 11. You draft production and hope for the best.

04-16-2017, 09:41 AM	#132
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by K Major You don't draft potential at pick 11. You draft production and hope for the best. I'd take that a step further, you draft an *impact, immediate starter at No. 11* and a ProBowler within two seasons... And if you're just hoping for the best with the pick and not being confident and right with the pick, you need another vocation... SaintFanQ and Seer1 like this.

04-16-2017, 11:36 AM	#133
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by jeanpierre The running game has lots of room for improvement as it was only 16th in the NFL in RuYd/game (19th in attempts)... Oh goodness. Now you are channeling my brother, who consistently makes these same arguments. I'll give the same response here that I give to him: Running the football isn't in the Payton/Carmichael/Brees offensive DNA. As much as the three give lip service to wanting to run the ball, their actions belie that lip service. You can see that in Ingram's running efficiency. 1043 yards in a little over 200 carries for a 5.1 YPC. That's why are 16th in yd/gm while 19th in attempts. Having a better running game would allow us to improve our Time of Possession, and that limits the exposure of the defense... Logic continues that limiting the exposure of the defense translates to fewer allowed yardage and opposing scoring opportunities... All true. Except Payton, Brees and company are simply not going to do it. We have 10 seasons of evidence. In that span there were 2 1000+ yard rushers, and 2 with more than 200 attempts in a season. So while logically it makes sense to run the ball, it's not going to happen. Haven't been the biggest Ingram fan since we drafted him in the first round using a first and a second round pick to acquire him... And it only took him nearly five years to actually have an impact in the Saints offensive scheme... But to hang it all on Ingram is erroneous at best as we were only 19th in rushing attempts last season... Exactly. Ingram has become a productive, efficient, all around back. The team has already invested the draft picks and the extension dollars to get him to this point. So to me, throwing him aside and trying to slot someone new is nonsensical. Not to mention that we were running a 3-guard rotation to keep Jahri Evans fresh and Peat was having to play LT... I do believe Payton needs a complimentary RB, and McCaffrey looks to be the ideal choice in this draft... FIFY. But note that even if the Saints took McCaffery, it would not improve the running game. Payton would take his new toy and shuffle him in the backfield, the slot, and out wide. He would swing passes to him in the flat, and throw PT type screens to him. He would be as much a running back in this offense as Reggie Bush was. And absolutely none of those rushing numbers you quoted at the top would change, because as I stated it's not in the Saints offensive DNA to do so. But we also could use another young guard in addition to the Warford FA signing, a Grubbs salve signing for failing on Zeitler... But at what cost? Spend a #32 or #42 on a guy that won't likely start on an offense that may need the depth, but really isn't a position of need? The team did a solid job of shoring up the roster Pre-Draft; and as deep as this draft is, we have options with our first five picks... Of course with the Saints draft DNA, they will exercise those options. In each of the last three years the Saints have taken an offensive player in one of the first 2 rounds. So I know my hope that they will stock up on defensive talent that can be brought in and coached up so that the defense can function as and effective standalone unit in the seasons to come is completely unrealistic. So if we took McCaffrey with the 11th pick, I wouldn't panic or blink unless we didn't have an add'l DE after pick 76... I would flip out if players like Barnett or Foster were on the board at 11. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

04-16-2017, 11:46 AM	#134
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL FIFY. But note that even if the Saints took McCaffery, it would not improve the running game. Payton would take his new toy and shuffle him in the backfield, the slot, and out wide. He would swing passes to him in the flat, and throw PT type screens to him. He would be as much a running back in this offense as Reggie Bush was. And absolutely none of those rushing numbers you quoted at the top would change, because as I stated it's not in the Saints offensive DNA to do so. But at what cost? Spend a #32 or #42 on a guy that won't likely start on an offense that may need the depth, but really isn't a position of need? True, but there would be multiple ways to deliver the ball to the RB McCaffrey and the end result still would be longer, sustained drives, greater time of possession, minimizing the time the defense has to be on the field...
	Last edited by jeanpierre; 04-16-2017 at 12:01 PM..

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04-16-2017, 11:49 AM	#135
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL But at what cost? Spend a #32 or #42 on a guy that won't likely start on an offense that may need the depth, but really isn't a position of need? Didn't say we necessarily need to draft a guard at those two spots, just that we need a young guard or offensive tackle to start developing when/if Peat has to kick out to one of the OTs...

04-16-2017, 11:53 AM	#136
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL Of course with the Saints draft DNA, they will exercise those options. In each of the last three years the Saints have taken an offensive player in one of the first 2 rounds. So I know my hope that they will stock up on defensive talent that can be brought in and coached up so that the defense can function as and effective standalone unit in the seasons to come is completely unrealistic. My brother, you need to take a breath and slide over to Seer's Coaching Replacements thread... We do have defensive talent on this team; we had an unusually high percentage of starters lost during a transition to new scheme season... Plus, as I said on the new coaches thread, the new hires are getting overlooked by everyone except the competition; this may be the most talented, well, the best coaching staff of the Payton era... Stephone Anthony came in as a rookie and nearly took defensive rookie of the year honors - look for him and other players' game to elevate under Mike Nolan, Ryan Nielsen guidance...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

04-16-2017, 11:56 AM	#137
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL All true. Except Payton, Brees and company are simply not going to do it. We have 10 seasons of evidence. In that span there were 2 1000+ yard rushers, and 2 with more than 200 attempts in a season. So while logically it makes sense to run the ball, it's not going to happen. There's truth in what you say in Payton's nature as has been on display for 10+ seasons... And that's why a back like McCaffrey would be more successful than a back like Fournette... And suppose we do go RB at No. 11 and McCaffrey and Fournette are on the board, can you imagine picking up the top 3rd pick because Cleveland would be worried about not getting Fournette if we traded out?

04-16-2017, 12:35 PM	#138
Seer1 Site Donor Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Bayou Bayfield CO Posts: 4,722	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 And if they're both gone, here's your sleeper pick: Samuel out of tOSU. He's a little smaller, but I think faster and would be better at that really short pass stuff we used to do with Bush and Sproles. He was usually a bright spot even when the Buckeye offense was moving at the speed of smell. Watch some of his highlights and see what you think.

04-16-2017, 12:49 PM	#139
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by jeanpierre True, but there would be multiple ways to deliver the ball to the RB McCaffrey and the end result still would be longer, sustained drives, greater time of possession, minimizing the time the defense has to be on the field... I hear you. I just don't believe that's the proper path to being a consistently winning organization. The reason being that if the defense cannot hold its own, then the opposition will do exactly the same thing to our defense. Defensively the Saint need to be able to get offenses off the field on 3rd down, play tough in the red zone, and gather up a few turnovers. None of those can be helped by the offense. That can be helped by disruptive defensive linemen, LBs that can stop the run and cover TEs and backs, and DBs that can cover, break up passes, and catch the ball when it hits them in the hands. The Saints offense playing complementary football is wishful thinking. The solution isn't to improve the offense to cover a inadequate defense. The solution is to field an adequate defense that complements the productive and explosive offense we already have. SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

04-16-2017, 02:20 PM	#140
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Saints Possible Options At Pick No. 11 Originally Posted by K Major You don't draft potential at pick 11. You draft production and hope for the best. Since he's not going at 11, no worries then. The only player at 11 that is a solid sure thing is OJ, players like Foster, Barnett and I'll even throw Peppers in there, you hoping for the best but each of those have potential. So do we draft a sure thing or a player with potential at 11?

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