Defense vs offense
 

When it comes to the defense it is what it is. It has to prove it on the field first no matter what. There is no point in arguing over it. But when you sit through many games where the offense is ineffective at moving the ball for entire first halves and three fourths of a game being held to 10 points or less, that is going to be a bigger concern for me.

So it may not be the case next year with the schedule, it does not undo the fact it has been in the past two-three years. No improved defense is going to beat every good offense. We have the worst games for Brees on top of a game or two like that to go with division games. If our run at playoff success hinges on 4-2 and 5-1 division records every year, then we are in trouble. Against three improved teams in a give and take division that's not going to happen. That's why outside opponents are crucial.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

WTF are you talking about?! We had the #2 offense scoring 469 points last season, behind only the Falcons who scored 540.

We were ranked second also with 29.3 points per game...

We had the 31st ranked defense; 32nd ranked against the pass(273.8 ypg) and 14th against the run(101.6 ypg)...

Which one is the bigger problem?

For someone who claims to be all about the stats, you sure seem like less than even a casual fan :doh:

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Go Away !!!

Re: Defense vs offense
 

This is what I mean by a casual fan. You point to stat padding statistics.

Btw, no team put up the kind of points the saints did in any first half. That is why the stats make little sense because they evened the bad ones with big ones and when I pull up the first half totals I'm gonna prove it. Here's your stats you have been asking for.

I don't know the totals straight up but here's a rough estimate.....
180 total first half points
among those against Oakland, Carolina, SF, LA, Arizona, and TB
114.........Those six games accounted for over half and less than 2/3 of the total first half points.

Just over a third remaining for the other ten games.

What is the average ppg with those six games? 19
What is the average ppg with the remaining ten? 6.6
Overall average combined? 11.25

If the defense improved, it would maybe move the average up to 10 ppg in the first half in those ten games. That's still below average.

source: my calculator

BAM!

Now those 469 points equals out to 29.32 ppg

The points scored against Oakland, Carolina, SF, LA, Arizona, Atlanta, Atlanta, and San Diego that consisted of 30+.....280. The other eight games consisted of 189.

The 280 average out to 35
The 189 average out to 23.63.

What would a better defense do? Put Lutz on the field more to attempt field goals, and he had some ugly ones that went through.

You're also assuming that the offense can afford to have bad first halfs and win in the second with a improved defense...in other words becoming a team winning from behind, something we are not known for. You are virtually assuming that points can occur anytime. And if the falcons scored 17 in the first half instead of 28, and the saints scored 13 instead of 10, the saints would win 35-27? In other words Atlanta still scores 10 points in that second half and does not score any in the fourth? No.

How many less points does Detroit score with an improved defense? I would say 10 so 18. Saints would maybe move up to 16 points.

We need improved oline and defense both.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Do you have a bunch of Detroit players on your fantasy team as well? Every time you spout off you compare us to them. Seriously, you really need to discover sex so you can fantasize about that instead of about thinking you know anything about football, communicating or being smarter than everyone else. How about this, what's a good cure for a hangover?

Re: Defense vs offense
 

I ignored everything else you wrote after these inane remarks ...

If you are going to pretend that you understand stats you have to actually use them, not estimate.

:dunce:

Re: Defense vs offense
 

I don't spend all day on this board. I have a life. Most of my posts come in one time frame. Sex has nothing to do with seeing what the others don't with this offense's ineptitude in ten games. Again 6.6 ppg in ten games in the first half!

And do you know if you are not married, sex is a sin? If you told that to a religious single person, you would answer to God.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

What's it matter when the points come? If you have a defense holding teams to say 17 ppg and then I feel that as good as our offense is ranked (#2), we could put up 20(29.3) points even if they all came in the second half...

Re: Defense vs offense
 

I see that "the analyst" is trying to make a point about the lack of consistency of the offense. But I believe what he is missing is that lack of consistency is even more pronounced in the defense.

I'm not going to break down scoring by halves. But let's dump last years games into a few rough buckets to see any trends. Three categories:

+ : 30 points or greater for offense, 20 points or fewer for defense
- : 20 points or fewer for offense, 30 points or greater for defense
= : between 20 and 30 points for both offense or defense.

Raiders: +-
Giants : -+
Falcons: +-
Chargers: +-
Panthers: +-
Chiefs: ==
Seahawks: =+
49ers: +=
Broncos: ==
Panthers: -=
Rams: +=
Lions: -=
Bucs: -+
Cardinals: +-
Bucs: +=
Falcons: +-

The offense went 9-4-3 (+,-,=) while the defense was 3-6-7. There were exactly 0 ++ games and exactly 0 -- games. As shown there were exactly 3 games where the Saints held the opposition to 20 points or less.

Let look at the distribution and records:

++ : 0
+= : 3 (3-0)
+- : 6 (3-3)
=+ : 1 (1-0)
== : 2 (0-2)
=- : 0
-+ : 2 (0-2)
-= : 2 (0-2)
-- : 0

So what can we see from the data?

1. The offense had to play well for the team to win. The team was 0-4 when the offense scored 20 or less.

2. Shootouts are a tossup (+-). And the team had more shootouts than anything else.

3. The majority of the losses (+=,==) happened when the defense gave up 21 or more points.

4. Productive offense and decent defense (+=,=+) are a winning formula (4-0 total)


Overall it seems that eliminating shootouts is the path forward. That means continuing the stand up a defense that can hold opponents to under 30 PPG while maintaining an offense than can score 30+ PPG. Moving 3-4 games from +- to += could make all the difference.

SFIAH

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Mark Twain: "Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."

Re: Defense vs offense
 

What lengths must one go to to be banned? Surely he must be getting close by now.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Agreed. While IDs shouldn't be checked at the door, not all seventh graders need be welcomed. We've done him a favor and helped to improve his writing skills... a little. As one who spends his days reading papers of middle schoolers I'm over reading his. He was amusing for a bit, but now it's just too much. Picking fights, threatening others and clogging up the forum with countless nonsensical threads are pretty much what trolls do isn't it?

Re: Defense vs offense
 

I really don't understand what your point is

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Sorry he must be rubbing off on me. Please ban him.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

In other words you think a top 20 defense will not fatigue? Brees did not do this 09 and 11, nor did he do this in 08 or 12. This has been happening since 2013.

Brees panics when behind. He has to play with a lead. The saints are not the ravens, they are not going to be in 6-3 games until the fourth quarter.

Again, has Brees decline? If he hasn't then this stalling is no excuse.

It does matter when the points come. Why are you so convinced that Brees is able to a comeback 4th quarter QB? It's not his strength.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Look at the giants, lions games. I don't see Brees getting on the field off a turnover having any better success against the way those defenses were playing.

Back in the 09 saints days it was normal for opponents to have 10-13 points at halftime unless they were really awful. And that's what a lot of opponents had last year against us? The defense kept being put back on the field. And that's why we have AP now. The FO thought something was wrong.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Go ahead and ban me because I hold "offensive genius" Sean Payton to the standard he set. I said it before he was smarter when he was married.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Will hmmm no one is going to ban you. B&G is a true Saints board and people are allowed to have opinions about the team that are not popular. Ive posted a couple but foreverfan is truely hated for his discrimination against dogs.
Id just say lay off the rum or have a rum and think before you post as an elitist know everything about SP and the club.
I think the problem some see here is your not willing to have a conversation, just impose your opinion with no room for talk. Which pretty much makes your Bid for the UN job of the USA a no go.
Your not the coach or even a line coach, and have no empathy for others in a chat.
I like you fine man, and could be totally wrong. Lord knows I thought JAVA was a joke when it came out and was going nowhere. I still blame that on you BTW.:bng:

No one wants to talk to someone that doesnt have empathy and wont listen with a definative agenda and ego, even if they are right. I would hate talking to God because he knows everything, it would suck. my opinions would be met with compassionate laughter. Though I could be wrong because that dog canon I made was more a barbacue than family fun.
I think we all know you care about the team, and thats important.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

The fact is that we know he DOESN'T care about the team. He has said that the Saints only became ONE of his teams because of Brees. All he cares about is gaining attention. He started out with massive amounts of nonsensical postings, all with a negative twist. Then recently, he has attempted to turn into a pseudo-intellectual that has some sort of deep understanding of the intricacies of the game and how almost all others on the site do not have the ability to understand. This new line of posting by him is no more comprehensible than the earlier attempts of attention grabbing. The garbage he comes up with, which in his mind supports the ever present negativity, is clearly unsupported BS or totally irrelevant ponderings.

What was at first an amusing escape from reality has turned into an onslaught of mindless blatherings which have cluttered the forum to a point where many are avoiding threads that have his stamp upon them as either the original poster or most recent respondent.

:annoyed:

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Honestly this all started because I said Ingram was not good enough and the oline was not good enough yet.

I'm done with this thread.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

https://media4.giphy.com/media/4UEyo...48149#18-grid1
https://media3.giphy.com/media/maVgU...bdf86#98-grid1

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Why do we even open a thead this guy starts???? He blames a top 5 offense over the past 8 years for the Saints downfall. This is your brain on drugs people.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

I find the ganging up on someone unseemly. Just disagree, rebut his points, and move on. There is a whiff of bullying in the air.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

The man is a Jean-U-Us with a large Brane!!!!

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Try going back and reading his last 2000 posts. It is getting frustrating to those of us regulars who actually want to share legitimate knowledge about our beloved Saints to have every other thread started to be yet another meaningless, and usually negative, drivel driven text. And intelligently crafted threads are constantly thrown off track by his off the wall input.

Re: Defense vs offense
 

Will......I clicked on another thread you started. I feel nauseous.

Remember ya'll.........for some people negative attention is better than no attention.