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baronm 03-28-2005 04:35 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Ok-

Watson last year was our most productive linebacker, however some here feel that he wasn't that great in his production.

Here is my question: do you think watson should stay at MLB or should he be moved oustide?

I believe, based on how intensly the saints want dat-that they feel that he would be better served outside with a new MLB.

Thoughts?

Danno 03-28-2005 04:42 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
A bonus with Watson is that he has the skills to play both. Someone said he played OLB before but I couldn\'t find any proof other than as a reserve his fresman year at Notre Dame.

I\'d be OK with sliding him over if the BPA we pick is an ILB, and I\'d be OK leaving him at MLB where he\'s played his whole career and pick an OLB.

SLB-Allen
MLB-Dat Nguyen
WLB-Watson

Doesn\'t look so bad to me.

SLB-Merriman
MLB-Watson
WLB-Bockwoldt

Doesn\'t look too bad either.

As long as we\'re discussing how to address the LB unit I\'m on cloud 9.

baronm 03-28-2005 04:45 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
why would you leave allen in and take colby out?

Danno 03-28-2005 04:56 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
why would you leave allen in and take colby out?
I believe that Colby is better suited for the WLB. i.e. he\'d get overpowered at SLB. Allen is much stronger (as of now) and is the perfect physical specimen for SLB.
Everything I\'ve heard is that Watson would also make a good WLB as well as MLB. But I haven\'t heard many suggest or even comment on him playing SLB.

Bockwoldt would get destroyed at SLB, unless he gets MUCH stronger.

Some of the \"students of the game\" can correct me but I believ in a 4-3 defense the WLB plays in space. Meaning speed and instinct are most crucial.

The SLB plays in a crowd. Often has to fight thru multiple blockers and must have decent coverage skills. Typically he\'s a bit bigger/stronger and more physical than the WLB.
Its been said if you could combine Hodges cover skills with Allens physicalness you\'d have a decent LB.

Much depends on schemes but I think in general the above applies. But with all that said I am curious, can Watson play SLB?

SLB-Watson
MLB-Dat
WLB-Bockwoldt

That looks pretty good too.

JKool 03-28-2005 05:06 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
Some of the \"students of the game\" can correct me but I believ in a 4-3 defense the WLB plays in space.
You, sir, are correct. ;)

At any rate, I too have been wondering if Watson can play SLB. It might be a bit of a waste of his speed, but since his coverage looked ok to me (and he\'d be primarily in charge ot the TE), I don\'t see why he couldn\'t play SLB. I remember reading that his stack and shed was a bit of a problem - so while his size wouldn\'t be an issue, his ability to get off blockers might be an issue. Also, wasn\'t one of the claims about him that he doesn\'t stick guys - he wraps and pulls down? If that is so, it also better suits him for WLB (or a protected MLB).

Danno, since you\'re among the most likely to remember, does that sound right to you?

spkb25 03-28-2005 05:40 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
im for anything that gives us another look at bockwoldt for a whole season. i want to see if the kid can play strong through a whole season. as long as he doesnt make it to the bench im ok with it. i just think the kid has potential. i dont want to see him on the sideline until we know whether he can do this or not. i think he can

no_cloning 03-28-2005 06:45 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
I remember reading that his stack and shed was a bit of a problem - so while his size wouldn\'t be an issue, his ability to get off blockers might be an issue.
It\'s definitely an issue. Watson will either stay at MLB or move to the weak side.
I don\'t want to move too far away from the topic, but want to pose another question: A few members are on the Thomas Davis bandwagon. Where would you play him if the Saints indeed draft him? SS, WLB, SLB? He played the strong side in college, but may have to get a little stronger after playing the safety position for the last almost 2 years. It\'s rather tricky where to put him.

There\'s a chance - and not even an outside chance - that the starting linebackers in week 1 will be: Allen-Watson-Bockwoldt. Kinda scary.

JKool 03-28-2005 07:00 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
If we were to draft Davis, I\'d like to see him play SS or WLB.

I don\'t think we\'ll draft him though, since at 16 there should be a number of \"equally\" good players available - making him not clearly BP - and we don\'t have a lot of need for a SS/LB tweener. Being a \'tweener makes him a bit of a project (as you point out), and I think we\'re looking for impact now, not a year or two from now - a project probably just won\'t cut it. Just my opinion on that though.

mutineer10 03-28-2005 07:25 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
I think the ongoing debate regarding Watson may add legitimacy to those who said we \"reached\" drafting him when we did. Sure, he was a rookie - and he performed well enough in that regard - but it sure doesn\'t seem like anyone\'s all that excited about him.

I like Bockwoldt, too, but must admit he\'s simply a pleasant surprise. He could be a reliable LB with a good career, but I seriously doubt he\'ll ever be a star. Definately worth the 7th round pick, though...

I don\'t think we\'ll draft Davis now, either. He really doesn\'t fit a need unless he\'s to be developed to take over for Bellamy. I think he\'s a bit small to play LB in the NFL.

Danno 03-29-2005 06:33 AM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
Also, wasn\'t one of the claims about him that he doesn\'t stick guys - he wraps and pulls down? If that is so, it also better suits him for WLB (or a protected MLB).

Danno, since you\'re among the most likely to remember, does that sound right to you?
Not exactly. He wasn\'t an explosive knock your head off Ray Lewis typr. But he was always considered a sure tackler. Never heard the drag-down comment on him before. Finesse tacklers don\'t end up 2 time Butkis Award finalist.

And no Mute, he wasn\'t a reach in the 2nd at all. There\'s an ongoing debate about Deuce and his lack of off-season committments also, was he a reach in the 1st? We drafted a rookie starter at MLB, who also has the talent to play OLB. He\'s smart, fast, and has great instincs, how can that be a reach? Donterrious Thomas (who I liked a lot) was picked much earlier in the 2nd, he had 1 tackle all year. If anything I\'d say he\'s closer to a steal than a reach. Probably went where he was supposed to.

JKool 03-29-2005 01:14 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
Not exactly. He wasn\'t an explosive knock your head off Ray Lewis typr. But he was always considered a sure tackler. Never heard the drag-down comment on him before. Finesse tacklers don\'t end up 2 time Butkis Award finalist.
A fine point. Thanks.

FireVenturi 03-29-2005 01:27 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
A bonus with Watson is that he has the skills to play both. Someone said he played OLB before but I couldn\'t find any proof other than as a reserve his fresman year at Notre Dame.

I\'d be OK with sliding him over if the BPA we pick is an ILB, and I\'d be OK leaving him at MLB where he\'s played his whole career and pick an OLB.

SLB-Allen
MLB-Dat Nguyen
WLB-Watson

Doesn\'t look so bad to me.

SLB-Merriman
MLB-Watson
WLB-Bockwoldt

Doesn\'t look too bad either.

As long as we\'re discussing how to address the LB unit I\'m on cloud 9.
I also like Watson at WLB, as far as Merriman all the so called experts say he can only play LB in the 3-4. so im not sure about that.
What does Fujita play? MLB or OLB?

baronm 03-29-2005 01:31 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
OLB..and is good in coverage and versus the run.

here\'s my thinking though...line him up on the strong side, which isn\'t much different from the skills he needs up the middle.

grab a tough MLB and then either play colby or a rookie whose got some pop or is a premier pass rusher on the weakside....

FireVenturi 03-29-2005 01:33 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
OLB..and is good in coverage and versus the run.

here\'s my thinking though...line him up on the strong side, which isn\'t much different from the skills he needs up the middle.

grab a tough MLB and then either play colby or a rookie whose got some pop or is a premier pass rusher on the weakside....
SLB-Fujita, leave Watson at MLB and DJ at WLB....is it ok to dream??

baronm 03-29-2005 01:36 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
Quote:
OLB..and is good in coverage and versus the run.

here\'s my thinking though...line him up on the strong side, which isn\'t much different from the skills he needs up the middle.

grab a tough MLB and then either play colby or a rookie whose got some pop or is a premier pass rusher on the weakside....
SLB-Fujita, leave Watson at MLB and DJ at WLB....is it ok to dream??
pass that stuff...man..quit hogging...j/k

something along that lines is what I want..but..will improving our linebacking core be of any use with the current DTs?

JKool 03-29-2005 01:39 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Baron, I agree that improving our DT is critical. However, we have some guys on the roster who are serviceable, so improving our LB is also of great importance. It is not clear to me that Allen is serviceable.

baronm 03-29-2005 01:42 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
I\'m of that opinion as well...which is why I asked the first question..

I\'m not sure colby is a starter either...so really outside linebacker-however we do it is our greatest need.

JKool 03-29-2005 07:28 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
I think that is a good view. Bockwoldt\'s ability to be an NFL starter may be determined over the next couple of years, rather than right now. He needs to get stronger. He showed a lot of heart, but I don\'t see that there is a lot of evidence he can be solid for an entire season just yet.

baronm 03-30-2005 08:49 AM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
QUOTES ON COURTNEY WATSON:

Saints Director of Player Personnel Rick Mueller:


Q: What kind of player is LB Courtney Watson?

A: \"He\'s a good football player, and another guy who is really versatile. He played inside at Notre Dame, a decent-sized kid who is not overly tall but a 240-pound kid who is going to get a little bit bigger. He\'s smart and a good character guy. I think he\'ll be able to play a couple of different spots, and he\'s smart enough. I think he has the speed to be a good special teams player and he\'s a tough kid. He\'s also an instinctive player who finds the football. When you watch Notre Dame film, he\'s around the ball or making the tackle 90 percent of the time. He was a productive college football player and really an all-around linebacker as far as covering the pass and covering the run. A lot of times you eliminate things when you draft guys; if you get a tough guy, he\'s not always a fast guy, or tough or fast guy isn\' always instinctive. To a certain degree, this guy has a little bit of everything. I think all around, he\'s a good player with versatility and a lot of things we\'re looking for. He\'s a guy we\'ve looked at and talked about for a long time. We\'re happy to have Courtney.\"

Q: Do you think he\'ll start out in the middle?

A: \"We haven\'t made that decision. We\'ll let Jim Haslett and Rick Venturi work that out. But with this kid we have some versatility. He could play inside, but he could be a really good linebacker at that Will spot. He could probably line up at either spot, and that\'s a good problem to have.\"

Related Photo Galleries
OVERVIEW
Player with outstanding character, both on and off the field … Heavily involved in his community, Watson became only the second Notre Dame player (Grant Irons) to earn AFC Good Works Team accolades … A three-year starter at inside linebacker, his quickness and range could see him shift to weakside outside linebacker at the pro level … A finalist in 2002 and a semi-finalist in 2003 for the Butkus Award, Watson was called, \"everything you would want in a leader,\" by head coach Tyrone Willingham … Seriously considered entering the 2003 NFL Draft, but opted to return to the school for his final season, hoping to be involved in the team\'s rebuilding under Willingham … Started his final 32 games, seeing action in 43 contests … Finished with 294 tackles (163 solos), 8½ sacks for minus-62 yards, 39 stops for losses of 151 yards, a fumble recovery, a forced fumble, eight pass deflections and seven interceptions for 202 yards in returns, including two touchdowns … Only Allen Rossum (3, 1994-97), Bobby Leopold (3, 1976-79) and Tom Schoen (3, 1965-67) had more interception returns for touchdowns in school history … His 202 return yards are the most by an Irish defender since Steve Lawrence totaled 233 yards (1983-86) … Only Nick Rassas (31.4 avg., 1963-65) had a higher interception return average in Irish annals.
ANALYSIS
Positives: Has a short, thick frame with a well-developed chest, broad shoulders, good arm muscle definition, good bubble, thick thighs and defined calves … Very productive defender with above-average toughness … Shows instinctive read and react skills, as he sees blocking schemes and moves quickly to the ball … Will step up and take on the offensive guard or lead back with force to stack the inside run … Uses his hands well to play off blocks … Quick in pursuit, showing the playing speed to recover when beaten … Has above-average ease-of-movement agility in his lateral pursuit … Hard hitter who is better as a drag-down tackler than one who wraps … Can lock on and stay on the hips of tight ends and backs operating in the short-area passing game … Adequate in his pass drops working in the zone (when dropping inside and in the short area) … Has natural hands going for the interception and a sudden burst to gain long yardage on the return … Adequate blitzer who easily moves through trash and traffic to get outside.
Negatives: Quick to diagnose plays, but needs to stay in control, as he tends to over-run plays, especially when coming on the back side pursuit … Strong to stack and shed, but would be better if he uses his natural leverage … Produces a lot of arm and drag-down tackles and needs to do a better job of staying low in his pads to stalk, wrap and secure … May not have the pass-drop agility to be effective outside in a Cover-2 defense, as he appears a little stiff in the hips and is tight in his turn working the zone … Better blitzer off the edge than coming inside, but lacks an array of moves when his initial charge is defeated (depends on quickness and speed rather than pass rush moves).

AGILITY TESTS
4.56 in the 40-yard dash … Bench presses 225 pounds 22 times … 365-pound bench press … 500-pound squat … 1.7 10-yard dash … 2.7 20-yard dash … 4.37 20-yard shuttle … 11.96 60-yard shuttle … 7.40 three-cone drill … 38-inch vertical jump … 10-foot-4 broad jump … 31½-inch arm length … 9¼-inch hands … Right-handed … Wears contacts.
this shows what the saints think of him...so basically he could swing over and we could draft a MLB easily.

yasoon 03-30-2005 09:56 AM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
My problem with drafting an MLB is that it is an \"experience\" position. There will be growing pains and breakdowns when you have a young guy in the middle. Going rookie as our solution at MLB just leaves us open to alot of the same stuff we\'ve seen the last couple of years.
I personally like Courtney in the middle, mainly because I think he has a good head for it. But....I can\'t say that he wouldn\'t do better on the outside.
The problem with breaking down a linebacker is the lack of film (when you don\'t work in the field of sports analysis). You\'re really left to judge a player(s) by the overall performance of the D and the big plays made. I mean Allen made some nice ballhawking plays late in the year, but I don\'t know that that means he has rounded into a legit starter. You know, if a guy has trouble shedding blockers and recovers 3 fumbles, does that mean he just got better at shedding blockers? Probably not, but he\'ll score some perception points with the fans.

All I know is the young guys played great late in the year. I think the 2 corners playing the way they did took pressure off the LBs. I don\'t think we magically morphed into the ravens. I\'ll take the best LB available in the first and the best DT in the second and try to work them both into the rotation. (Maybe we go OL in the 2nd...I wouldn\'t mind that.)


It\'s the offseason gents, time for irrational optimism. :mad:

Danno 03-30-2005 10:23 AM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
What I like most about Watson is that he gives us flexibility. When our pick comes up we\'re able to pick the best available LB regardless of his position. If its a MLB we just slide CW over. If its an OLB we keep CW at MLB.
More ammo that suggests we can wait until the 2nd and just pick the best LB on the board. And another in the 3rd wouldn\'t hurt my feelings either.

GumboBC 03-30-2005 10:25 AM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Courtney Watson may gone on to be a great MLB. And I hope he does. Who wouldn\'t?

But, last year Watson was given a chance to start and he really didn\'t impress me at all. Nothing stood out in Watson\'s game that made me think he is the answer.

Of course, it was only his rookie season and there\'s always room for improvement. And playing MLB behind Howard Green and Brian Young wasn\'t exactly the best situation for a rookie MLB.

Still - Watson was not in position to make many plays. He often looked confused and lost out there. And whatever physical ability he may have didn\'t account for much. And whatever \"intangibles\" he may have didn\'t show up on the field.

I wish I could sit here and say Courtney showed enough promise that I\'m convinced we\'ve got our man at MLB. But, that would be strecthing it a little too far.

The only thing I can say is that I think Watson is a big gamble heading into \'05.

At least Haslett and co. have shown a desire not to place all their eggs in one basket.

Bockwoldt seemed to have much better instints and he seemed much more physical than Watson. Simply put ... Bockwoldt impressed more in his rookie season than Courtney Watson.

baronm 03-30-2005 10:27 AM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
What I like most about Watson is that he gives us flexibility. When our pick comes up we\'re able to pick the best available LB regardless of his position. If its a MLB we just slide CW over. If its an OLB we keep CW at MLB.
More ammo that suggests we can wait until the 2nd and just pick the best LB on the board. And another in the 3rd wouldn\'t hurt my feelings either.
excatly-and that is what I think the saints are thinking as well..but I do think that experience is a key at the MLB-which I think is a key position on d.

Danno 03-30-2005 11:04 AM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
Quote:
Quote:
What I like most about Watson is that he gives us flexibility. When our pick comes up we\'re able to pick the best available LB regardless of his position. If its a MLB we just slide CW over. If its an OLB we keep CW at MLB.
More ammo that suggests we can wait until the 2nd and just pick the best LB on the board. And another in the 3rd wouldn\'t hurt my feelings either.
excatly-and that is what I think the saints are thinking as well..but I do think that experience is a key at the MLB-which I think is a key position on d.
At times he looked like a rookie, but at times he was quite impressive. For a rookie to come in, start and produce at MLB in the NFL speaks wonders about him. I\'m much more concerned with both our OLB\'s than CW.
More often than not our OLB\'s looked lost and confused. MUCH more than CW.

spkb25 03-30-2005 05:47 PM
Idea up for debate:watson
 
as far as bockwoldt im a huge fan. i think the kid will be good in this league. i want to see us give him a chance for a whole year. i think we need to see him an entire year but lets at least give him the chance


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