Nothing but linebacker talk!

GumboBC · 03-31-2005, 12:53 PM

There are many members here at B&G that I hold in high regard when it comes to their football knowledge.

Some of you other chumps I don't know about ... ;) (it's a joke. no one get offended)

There's one subject on here that really interests me and I'd like to discuss it.

It's been debated before but I feel it's so important to this upcoming season that I would like to discuss it again.

What is it?

The linebacker positions. All of 'em.

Now, I know Danno loves to discuss LBs so I hope he will jump in here. As well as everyone else.

Speaking of Danno, he's the main reason I want to discuss this subject.

Okay ...

We've got 3-linebacker positions:

1. MLB
2. SLB
3. WLB

Some say that they're more comfortable with Watson's ability at MLB than our other LBs.

I've heard it be said that Watson is the most likely to step it up.

But, I disagee and here's why.

MLB, I feel, is the more difficult of all the linebacker positions.

And that automatically puts more pressure on Watson at MLB than Bockwoldt at WLB or Allen at SLB. Even if he is the most talented, I think the position demands more talent than the other LB positions.

The reason I feel more comfortable with Bockwoldt has a lot to do with the differences in responsibilites at WLB when compared to MLB.

The WLB plays on the weak side of the offense. Which means he's left unaccouted for in the blocking scheme of the offesne. In other words. the WLB plays in space and doesn't have to be nearly as physical as the MLB. Or even the SLB.

The WLB has more to do with speed and less to do with physical ability.

Starting to get the picture?

The MLB really needs to be much more physical but that's not all that's required. He also needs to be fast enough to chase down the runner from sideline to sideline. And he's got to do that against offenses that designate blockers especially for him. And he also has to drop back in pass coverage at times.

Picture becoming more clear?

As far as the SLB. His job is to play on the strong side of the offensive formation. But, his job maily consists of taking on blockers and disrupting the plays and allow one of the other LBs to make the tackle. And, of course, he should make the tackle if he can.

I feel very strongly that Watson is most suspect because of the nature of the MLB position.

Thoughts?

JKool · 03-31-2005, 01:05 PM

MLB, I feel, is the more difficult of all the linebacker positions.

I\'m glad you feel that way, but I don\'t. It is obvious to me that NO position is harder or easier than any other position on the defense. Each position requires a different set of skills from the others - each of which has its own nuances and difficulties to master.

Thus, we must constrain what you mean by \"more difficult\".

The last time we had this discussion, you seemed to come down on this fact: the biggest difference between WLB and MLB is that the MLB has to do his job in traffic.

I agree... sort of.

The WLB is not left unaccounted for by the offense, he is just left unaccounted for in some kinds of plays - like middle runs or strong runs. Believe me, someone is supposed to block him when the run goes backside.

Furthermore, it is much easier to make a tackle in the middle of the field with lots of bodies around where it is much harder for the RB to make moves - for example when he hits the hole. If the MLB is doing his job, he hits the RB when there is less room for moves, less momentum, and the RB is still looking to make a move to the open field. THAT is easier, not harder.

Sure, the MLB has to shed blocks more often than the WLB IF HE IS THE ONLY GUY TO MAKE THE PLAY. The reason that no one is excited about the SLB is that sometimes it is his job to take on the block, so the other LBs can make the play. Guess what? That is sometimes the MLB\'s job. Thus, if one of the linemen works through on a trap, sometimes it is the MLBs job to blow up the block and the WLBs (or SSs) job to make the play in the middle.

This view of what makes a position, namely the MLB, harder just isn\'t doing it for me. It is too simple to say it is harder becuase he has to play in traffic. First, I don\'t think it is true, and second even if it is true some of the time, it isn\'t often enough for me to concede your point.

Not only that, MLBs don\'t have to chase sideline to sideline - that depends on the scheme. In fact, that is usually the WLB and SS\'s job. This is why \"meat-heads\" like Ruff can play MLB.

GumboBC · 03-31-2005, 01:15 PM

It is obvious to me that NO position is harder or easier than any other position on the defense.

You really surprise me with that statement, JKool. Do you actually believe that?

It would be nice if all positions were created equal. But, IMHO, that\'s hardly the case.

You think the FS postion is as difficult as CB? Come on man?!

The WLB is not left unaccounted for by the offense, he is just left unaccounted for in some kinds of plays - like middle runs or strong runs. Believe me, someone is supposed to block him when the run goes backside.

Look at it how you wish, JKool. But, while the WLB might be the focus of the blocking scheme on some plays, he is left unaccouted for much more than either the SLB or MLB. The WLB and SLB adjust alignment before the offense runs the play and therefore that defines the weakside and the strong side. And deterimies, in large part, who is accounted for in the blocking scheme.

I\'ll stop with this for now and let you address it.

[Edited on 31/3/2005 by GumboBC]

4saintspirit · 03-31-2005, 01:24 PM

I\'ll weigh in here -- first of all Joe is correct when he says that each position has its own nuances etc. I also believe he is correct when he says that its not fair to say what is easier or harder as a position -- it changes per team based on the defensive scheme -- the other players etc. What I think is correct and maybe this is what you actually mean Gumbo (not to put words in your mouth) is that certain positions are more important and key to the defense. For example -- a skilled MLB can make much more of an impact than the other 2 linebackers -- that I can agree with -- and with that I would say that we need someone more skilled than Watson

JKool · 03-31-2005, 01:26 PM

(1) My point about difficulty was this: it is difficult to assess which position is harder to play/perform the duties of since they are all designed to do different things. Thus, claiming one is harder than another is a three place relation not two. E.g.:

x is harder than y on task z (a three place relation)
x is hader than y, simpliciter (a two place relation)

Thus, my challenge for you was to consider the three place question rather than merely asserting the two place one.

FS is more difficult than CB in diagnosing plays, but CB is more difficult than FS in coverage FOR CERTAIN.

Thus, my claim was this: if you assess all the dimensions of a position, you will quickly find that it is hard to say which position is more difficult than another - perhaps they are all the same was a bit of an overstatement, but more analysis is necessary either way.

(2) The SLB and WLB switch to the strong and weak sides of the play in many cases, but I don\'t see what that has to do with my point - roughly 2/3 of the time the WLB is left unaccounted for (except perhaps by a crack-back from the WR), but 1/3 of the time (roughly) he is treated the way the SLB is (and the SLB is left unaccounted for). In fact, on strong sweeps, the WLB and the MLB are left unaccounte for.

I\'m just having trouble deciding what difference it really makes who is accounted for and who isn\'t. Defenses are designed so that a DE or LB (of one kind or another) will make a play on the ball (whether QB or RB). This isn\'t \"usually\" one guy as opposed to another. Furthermore, the WLB is expected to stop the ball carrier as often (or more often) than the MLB.

(3) Go back to our Brooking example from the last time we went through this. If MLB is so darned important, why did they move him outside and put Draft in the middle - who is both smaller and less productive than Brooking? It is because their defense, like many is designed so that the WLB can be a playmaker. Draft blows up the blocks and keeps guys off Brooking so he can stick the ball!

(4) Thanks for allowing me some time to reply before the onslaught - it is easier in bite-sized chunks, isn\'t it?

GumboBC · 03-31-2005, 01:31 PM

I\'ll weigh in here -- first of all Joe is correct when he says that each position has its own nuances etc. I also believe he is correct when he says that its not fair to say what is easier or harder as a position -- it changes per team based on the defensive scheme -- the other players etc. What I think is correct and maybe this is what you actually mean Gumbo (not to put words in your mouth) is that certain positions are more important and key to the defense. For example -- a skilled MLB can make much more of an impact than the other 2 linebackers -- that I can agree with -- and with that I would say that we need someone more skilled than Watson

Thanks for your input. But that\'s not what I mean at all.

Here\'s the deal:

There\'s a fundamental difference in all 3 positions.

First, all we all clear on what \"weakside\" and strongside\" mean?

The weakside of the offense means that there is one less blocker on that side of the field. And sometimes TWO less blockers. And that\'s where the WLB plays. So that means the WLB has fewer blockers to take on.

All that shifting by the defense before the play is run is usually the SLB and the WLB shifting to the formation of the offense.

Simply put, it\'s a lot less demanding in terms of taking on blockers for the WLB.

JKool · 03-31-2005, 01:31 PM

4ss.

Thanks for weighing in. I\'m glad to see that we more-or-less agree.

Here is my impact list on defense:
DE
DT
OLB
DE
CB
MLB
DT
OLB or SS
SS or OLB
FS
CB

That is, if I were picking in the absence of other information, this is the order in which I would stock my defense. I want my best defensive player to be a DE, then a DT, and so on. Thus, I think this would roughly mirror the kind of impact a stud would have. A stud DE would have a significantly greater impact than a stud SS, for example.

JKool · 03-31-2005, 01:34 PM

The weakside of the offense means that there is one less blocker on that side of the field. And sometimes TWO less blockers. And that\'s where the WLB plays. So that means the WLB has fewer blockers to take on.

Strictly speaking that isn\'t quite right. The strong/weakside determination is made by the defensive playcaller (or the coach) and it is made on the basis of a few things - wideside of the field, position of the FB, position of the TE, often the strength of the G-T pair on that side of the line (since they don\'t switch sides) and sometimes the handedness of the QB.

Thus, it is possible that the side with the TE could be the weakside, under some condition.

More often than not, you are correct though.

GumboBC · 03-31-2005, 01:40 PM

JKool --

One of us is confused on what is weakside and what is strongside.

Here\'s my understanding:

The strongside and weakside is ALWAYS determined by the offense. And the defense adjusts accordingly.

There are some defenses that are using a rightside LB and a leftside LB that never switch formations because they can play either position.

[Edited on 31/3/2005 by GumboBC]

baronm · 03-31-2005, 01:40 PM

stupid question but we play MIK, WIK, and SIK (i think)--are those the same designations as SLB, MLB, and WLB?

I have always heard that the MLB is the quarterback on defense..they make the reads, and thus make the calls...

also-the MLB has to deal with the guards...whereas the SLB has to deal (usually) with the TE....

03-31-2005, 12:53 PM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Nothing but linebacker talk! There are many members here at B&G that I hold in high regard when it comes to their football knowledge. Some of you other chumps I don't know about ... ;) (it's a joke. no one get offended) There's one subject on here that really interests me and I'd like to discuss it. It's been debated before but I feel it's so important to this upcoming season that I would like to discuss it again. What is it? The linebacker positions. All of 'em. Now, I know Danno loves to discuss LBs so I hope he will jump in here. As well as everyone else. Speaking of Danno, he's the main reason I want to discuss this subject. Okay ... We've got 3-linebacker positions: 1. MLB 2. SLB 3. WLB Some say that they're more comfortable with Watson's ability at MLB than our other LBs. I've heard it be said that Watson is the most likely to step it up. But, I disagee and here's why. MLB, I feel, is the more difficult of all the linebacker positions. And that automatically puts more pressure on Watson at MLB than Bockwoldt at WLB or Allen at SLB. Even if he is the most talented, I think the position demands more talent than the other LB positions. The reason I feel more comfortable with Bockwoldt has a lot to do with the differences in responsibilites at WLB when compared to MLB. The WLB plays on the weak side of the offense. Which means he's left unaccouted for in the blocking scheme of the offesne. In other words. the WLB plays in space and doesn't have to be nearly as physical as the MLB. Or even the SLB. The WLB has more to do with speed and less to do with physical ability. Starting to get the picture? The MLB really needs to be much more physical but that's not all that's required. He also needs to be fast enough to chase down the runner from sideline to sideline. And he's got to do that against offenses that designate blockers especially for him. And he also has to drop back in pass coverage at times. Picture becoming more clear? As far as the SLB. His job is to play on the strong side of the offensive formation. But, his job maily consists of taking on blockers and disrupting the plays and allow one of the other LBs to make the tackle. And, of course, he should make the tackle if he can. I feel very strongly that Watson is most suspect because of the nature of the MLB position. Thoughts?
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-31-2005, 01:05 PM	#2
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Nothing but linebacker talk! MLB, I feel, is the more difficult of all the linebacker positions. I\'m glad you feel that way, but I don\'t. It is obvious to me that NO position is harder or easier than any other position on the defense. Each position requires a different set of skills from the others - each of which has its own nuances and difficulties to master. Thus, we must constrain what you mean by \"more difficult\". The last time we had this discussion, you seemed to come down on this fact: the biggest difference between WLB and MLB is that the MLB has to do his job in traffic. I agree... sort of. The WLB is not left unaccounted for by the offense, he is just left unaccounted for in some kinds of plays - like middle runs or strong runs. Believe me, someone is supposed to block him when the run goes backside. Furthermore, it is much easier to make a tackle in the middle of the field with lots of bodies around where it is much harder for the RB to make moves - for example when he hits the hole. If the MLB is doing his job, he hits the RB when there is less room for moves, less momentum, and the RB is still looking to make a move to the open field. THAT is easier, not harder. Sure, the MLB has to shed blocks more often than the WLB IF HE IS THE ONLY GUY TO MAKE THE PLAY. The reason that no one is excited about the SLB is that sometimes it is his job to take on the block, so the other LBs can make the play. Guess what? That is sometimes the MLB\'s job. Thus, if one of the linemen works through on a trap, sometimes it is the MLBs job to blow up the block and the WLBs (or SSs) job to make the play in the middle. This view of what makes a position, namely the MLB, harder just isn\'t doing it for me. It is too simple to say it is harder becuase he has to play in traffic. First, I don\'t think it is true, and second even if it is true some of the time, it isn\'t often enough for me to concede your point. Not only that, MLBs don\'t have to chase sideline to sideline - that depends on the scheme. In fact, that is usually the WLB and SS\'s job. This is why \"meat-heads\" like Ruff can play MLB.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

03-31-2005, 01:15 PM	#3
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Nothing but linebacker talk! It is obvious to me that NO position is harder or easier than any other position on the defense. You really surprise me with that statement, JKool. Do you actually believe that? It would be nice if all positions were created equal. But, IMHO, that\'s hardly the case. You think the FS postion is as difficult as CB? Come on man?! The WLB is not left unaccounted for by the offense, he is just left unaccounted for in some kinds of plays - like middle runs or strong runs. Believe me, someone is supposed to block him when the run goes backside. Look at it how you wish, JKool. But, while the WLB might be the focus of the blocking scheme on some plays, he is left unaccouted for much more than either the SLB or MLB. The WLB and SLB adjust alignment before the offense runs the play and therefore that defines the weakside and the strong side. And deterimies, in large part, who is accounted for in the blocking scheme. I\'ll stop with this for now and let you address it. [Edited on 31/3/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-31-2005, 01:24 PM	#4
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Nothing but linebacker talk! I\'ll weigh in here -- first of all Joe is correct when he says that each position has its own nuances etc. I also believe he is correct when he says that its not fair to say what is easier or harder as a position -- it changes per team based on the defensive scheme -- the other players etc. What I think is correct and maybe this is what you actually mean Gumbo (not to put words in your mouth) is that certain positions are more important and key to the defense. For example -- a skilled MLB can make much more of an impact than the other 2 linebackers -- that I can agree with -- and with that I would say that we need someone more skilled than Watson
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"

03-31-2005, 01:26 PM	#5
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Nothing but linebacker talk! (1) My point about difficulty was this: it is difficult to assess which position is harder to play/perform the duties of since they are all designed to do different things. Thus, claiming one is harder than another is a three place relation not two. E.g.: x is harder than y on task z (a three place relation) x is hader than y, simpliciter (a two place relation) Thus, my challenge for you was to consider the three place question rather than merely asserting the two place one. FS is more difficult than CB in diagnosing plays, but CB is more difficult than FS in coverage FOR CERTAIN. Thus, my claim was this: if you assess all the dimensions of a position, you will quickly find that it is hard to say which position is more difficult than another - perhaps they are all the same was a bit of an overstatement, but more analysis is necessary either way. (2) The SLB and WLB switch to the strong and weak sides of the play in many cases, but I don\'t see what that has to do with my point - roughly 2/3 of the time the WLB is left unaccounted for (except perhaps by a crack-back from the WR), but 1/3 of the time (roughly) he is treated the way the SLB is (and the SLB is left unaccounted for). In fact, on strong sweeps, the WLB and the MLB are left unaccounte for. I\'m just having trouble deciding what difference it really makes who is accounted for and who isn\'t. Defenses are designed so that a DE or LB (of one kind or another) will make a play on the ball (whether QB or RB). This isn\'t \"usually\" one guy as opposed to another. Furthermore, the WLB is expected to stop the ball carrier as often (or more often) than the MLB. (3) Go back to our Brooking example from the last time we went through this. If MLB is so darned important, why did they move him outside and put Draft in the middle - who is both smaller and less productive than Brooking? It is because their defense, like many is designed so that the WLB can be a playmaker. Draft blows up the blocks and keeps guys off Brooking so he can stick the ball! (4) Thanks for allowing me some time to reply before the onslaught - it is easier in bite-sized chunks, isn\'t it?
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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03-31-2005, 01:31 PM	#6
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Nothing but linebacker talk! I\'ll weigh in here -- first of all Joe is correct when he says that each position has its own nuances etc. I also believe he is correct when he says that its not fair to say what is easier or harder as a position -- it changes per team based on the defensive scheme -- the other players etc. What I think is correct and maybe this is what you actually mean Gumbo (not to put words in your mouth) is that certain positions are more important and key to the defense. For example -- a skilled MLB can make much more of an impact than the other 2 linebackers -- that I can agree with -- and with that I would say that we need someone more skilled than Watson Thanks for your input. But that\'s not what I mean at all. Here\'s the deal: There\'s a fundamental difference in all 3 positions. First, all we all clear on what \"weakside\" and strongside\" mean? The weakside of the offense means that there is one less blocker on that side of the field. And sometimes TWO less blockers. And that\'s where the WLB plays. So that means the WLB has fewer blockers to take on. All that shifting by the defense before the play is run is usually the SLB and the WLB shifting to the formation of the offense. Simply put, it\'s a lot less demanding in terms of taking on blockers for the WLB.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-31-2005, 01:31 PM	#7
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Nothing but linebacker talk! 4ss. Thanks for weighing in. I\'m glad to see that we more-or-less agree. Here is my impact list on defense: DE DT OLB DE CB MLB DT OLB or SS SS or OLB FS CB That is, if I were picking in the absence of other information, this is the order in which I would stock my defense. I want my best defensive player to be a DE, then a DT, and so on. Thus, I think this would roughly mirror the kind of impact a stud would have. A stud DE would have a significantly greater impact than a stud SS, for example.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

03-31-2005, 01:34 PM	#8
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Nothing but linebacker talk! The weakside of the offense means that there is one less blocker on that side of the field. And sometimes TWO less blockers. And that\'s where the WLB plays. So that means the WLB has fewer blockers to take on. Strictly speaking that isn\'t quite right. The strong/weakside determination is made by the defensive playcaller (or the coach) and it is made on the basis of a few things - wideside of the field, position of the FB, position of the TE, often the strength of the G-T pair on that side of the line (since they don\'t switch sides) and sometimes the handedness of the QB. Thus, it is possible that the side with the TE could be the weakside, under some condition. More often than not, you are correct though.

03-31-2005, 01:40 PM	#9
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Nothing but linebacker talk! JKool -- One of us is confused on what is weakside and what is strongside. Here\'s my understanding: The strongside and weakside is ALWAYS determined by the offense. And the defense adjusts accordingly. There are some defenses that are using a rightside LB and a leftside LB that never switch formations because they can play either position. [Edited on 31/3/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-31-2005, 01:40 PM	#10
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	Nothing but linebacker talk! stupid question but we play MIK, WIK, and SIK (i think)--are those the same designations as SLB, MLB, and WLB? I have always heard that the MLB is the quarterback on defense..they make the reads, and thus make the calls... also-the MLB has to deal with the guards...whereas the SLB has to deal (usually) with the TE....
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954