Payton need to go?

jeanpierre · 09-12-2017, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

We have heard the same song for 4 years now, although it started with Week 8 in 2014. Now we are down to Week 4. So progress in shortening the leash?

Let's see what happens next week for starters...

spkb25 · 09-12-2017, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Spike, criticisms of Payton's performance are fair, justified...

But this Bullshinski of the season being over after just one game, I would never want you are anyone that thinks like that the moment some adversity arises on my side in things...

If this is still happening in Week 4, mistakes aren't corrected, adjustments aren't made, then that's different...

And if Payton were cut loose now, I guarantee you that the 2017 Season would be done...

No one is discussing a mid-season letting go of SP. That would be silly. The issue with having optimism comes from the fact that this season and this game do not sit an isolation. There is a recent trend that provides enough supporting data to infer that it is likely not going to be a good season.

That said, I will be here each week through all 16 games just like I have since '04. Not meaning '04 with the Saints, meaning with this board. I hope this means nothing. I hope we come out and play like gang busters. I am just giving my honest opinion on what I believe will happen based off of the information I have.

burningmetal · 09-11-2017, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Brees had that deer in the headlights look from the first snap...

Payton preached all off-season about balance, running the ball more...

He even signed Petersahn with other holes in the roster, especially O-line...

Abandoned the run game by the second series, playing to the strengths of the Vikings Pass Defense?

This is not smart Payton football...

From what I saw tonight, Minnesota will be hosting the NFC Championship Game...

And we just gave away Home-Field Advantage...

But, here's the problem I had/have with Payton tonight...

Payton's nature is to be aggressive - that's where he makes bread...

And to not go for the touchdown in the red zone on fourth down, not once, not twice, but three times?

Going contrary to his nature, that is what's bothering me right now...

And save this BS title thread for Week 12...

The running game was not working. The swing passes weren't working. The downfield throws were, however, and THAT is what we simply didn't do enough of, in my opinion.

If we would run actual screen passes (not the same thing as a swing pass, though Payton must not agree with me) where we can catch their defense off guard, like they did to us, maybe we'd take some pressure off of Drew. Those swing passes are always telegraphed, and rarely work as a result. The Vikings offense will rank in the lower half of the league again, because they don't have great personnel and they don't run anything magical. We gave an NFL QB all the time he needed and busted in coverage over and over again. That will make any offense with a pulse look like the Vikings did tonight.

jeanpierre · 09-12-2017, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

The running game was not working. The swing passes weren't working. The downfield throws were, however, and THAT is what we simply didn't do enough of, in my opinion.

If we would run actual screen passes (not the same thing as a swing pass, though Payton must not agree with me) where we can catch their defense off guard, like they did to us, maybe we'd take some pressure off of Drew. Those swing passes are always telegraphed, and rarely work as a result. The Vikings offense will rank in the lower half of the league again, because they don't have great personnel and they don't run anything magical. We gave an NFL QB all the time he needed and busted in coverage over and over again. That will make any offense with a pulse look like the Vikings did tonight.

Burningmetal, the running game not working is simply not true...

The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)...

Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful...

Agree with you about passing to the running backs; in the first half while in the lead 6-3, Brees' second longest completion was actually to Ingram for 18 yds...

You mentioned telegraphed passes and the Vikings were definitely keyed on Kamara as Brees was 2 for 4 to Kamara for a net -6 yards in the first half - Payton was forcing it to Kamara when he should have used Ingram which would have kept the Vikes defense honest...

burningmetal · 09-12-2017, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Burningmetal, the running game not working is simply not true...

The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)...

Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful...

Agree with you about passing to the running backs; in the first half while in the lead 6-3, Brees' second longest completion was actually to Ingram for 18 yds...

You mentioned telegraphed passes and the Vikings were definitely keyed on Kamara as Brees was 2 for 4 to Kamara for a net -6 yards in the first half - Payton was forcing it to Kamara when he should have used Ingram which would have kept the Vikes defense honest...

You're entitled to your opinion if you believe that a fairly equal ratio of run to pass, equals success, but I disagree with you. The holes simply were not there, with the exception of two, maybe three runs. It's one of the main reasons we kept stalling and settling for field goals.

When we decided to throw the ball down the field, even a little bit, we had some success, which is why it was so maddening to see how gun shy Payton was about calling more aggressive plays. But, for some reason, when we got into the red zone we suddenly abandoned what got us there, and stalled.

When we scored 10 points in the 4th quarter, we were throwing the ball down the field. It sure wasn't the running game that got us going then. Of course, we had to run the play clock down to 10 seconds or less on just about every play when we were supposed to be in hurry up. There was no sense of urgency, at any point, even when we started moving the ball. Their pace seemed to be conceding defeat, whether that was their intention or not.

jeanpierre · 09-13-2017, 10:15 AM

Watched the game again last night and confirmed play calling has got to be more patient with the run game - from a post earlier in the thread...

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

[B]... the running game not working is simply not true...

The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)...

Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful...

In the first half, we had RuYd plays of 9, 1, 3, 2, 2, 1, 4, 3, 3, 7, 2, 5, -1, 3, 2, 1...

Again, the 20 yd gashes are great, but this Vikings defense was third (3rd) in pass defense, but only twentieth (20th) in rush defense last season...

So the recipe for beating these physical defenses like the Vikings, Seahawks and Broncos is too pound them, running it right at their edge rushers...

And another thing I didn't see with the Ingram and Peterson runs was a lot of pull-zone blocking to open the field, instead trying to run at L. Joseph...

Running those wide zone sweeps, exposing their pass rushers to those remember me hits from our physical guards...

Believe Payton learned his lesson and the MNF beating in the second half will reinforce the lesson...

K Major · 09-13-2017, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Watched the game again last night and confirmed play calling has got to be more patient with the run game - from a post earlier in the thread...

So the recipe for beating these physical defenses like the Vikings, Seahawks and Broncos is too pound them, running it right at their edge rushers...

And another thing I didn't see with the Ingram and Peterson runs was a lot of pull-zone blocking to open the field, instead trying to run at L. Joseph...

Someway the Saints must establish a running attack going forward.

Ingram, Peterson, Kamara etc ... there is no reason for us not to have a 90+ yard run game. Parcels always used to say that Payton was a bit too "pass happy". Run it down their collective throats ... even if it isn't working at first.

Papa Voodoo · 09-12-2017, 12:05 AM

Drew hits Lewis and Coleman holds on everybody would feel different. We settled for too many FGs.

CharityMike · 09-11-2017, 10:25 PM

Well maybe I will pay more attention to his threads if this is the kind of stuff he is gonna bring to the table. Been avoiding his topics because they were usually things from way left field.

halloween 65 · 09-11-2017, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by CharityMike

Well maybe I will pay more attention to his threads if this is the kind of stuff he is gonna bring to the table. Been avoiding his topics because they were usually things from way left field.

He gets deep, sometimes too deep. I sometimes have a really hard time reading between his lines and have to read it several times and other times I think he screws with peoples heads. I have to say when I think he's messing with their heads he does a good job. It's kind of comical and he takes a beating for it. I usually don't respond because I don't think I could take half the beating that guy does. Not saying a word is sometimes best for me I learned that being married, it's gotten me out of jams for nearly 17 years with my wife so far.

09-12-2017, 07:31 AM	#1
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper We have heard the same song for 4 years now, although it started with Week 8 in 2014. Now we are down to Week 4. So progress in shortening the leash? Let's see what happens next week for starters...

09-12-2017, 11:47 AM	#2
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,115	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Spike, criticisms of Payton's performance are fair, justified... But this Bullshinski of the season being over after just one game, I would never want you are anyone that thinks like that the moment some adversity arises on my side in things... If this is still happening in Week 4, mistakes aren't corrected, adjustments aren't made, then that's different... And if Payton were cut loose now, I guarantee you that the 2017 Season would be done... No one is discussing a mid-season letting go of SP. That would be silly. The issue with having optimism comes from the fact that this season and this game do not sit an isolation. There is a recent trend that provides enough supporting data to infer that it is likely not going to be a good season. That said, I will be here each week through all 16 games just like I have since '04. Not meaning '04 with the Saints, meaning with this board. I hope this means nothing. I hope we come out and play like gang busters. I am just giving my honest opinion on what I believe will happen based off of the information I have.
	Your team stinks

09-11-2017, 10:42 PM	#3
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Brees had that deer in the headlights look from the first snap... Payton preached all off-season about balance, running the ball more... He even signed Petersahn with other holes in the roster, especially O-line... Abandoned the run game by the second series, playing to the strengths of the Vikings Pass Defense? This is not smart Payton football... From what I saw tonight, Minnesota will be hosting the NFC Championship Game... And we just gave away Home-Field Advantage... But, here's the problem I had/have with Payton tonight... Payton's nature is to be aggressive - that's where he makes bread... And to not go for the touchdown in the red zone on fourth down, not once, not twice, but three times? Going contrary to his nature, that is what's bothering me right now... And save this BS title thread for Week 12... The running game was not working. The swing passes weren't working. The downfield throws were, however, and THAT is what we simply didn't do enough of, in my opinion. If we would run actual screen passes (not the same thing as a swing pass, though Payton must not agree with me) where we can catch their defense off guard, like they did to us, maybe we'd take some pressure off of Drew. Those swing passes are always telegraphed, and rarely work as a result. The Vikings offense will rank in the lower half of the league again, because they don't have great personnel and they don't run anything magical. We gave an NFL QB all the time he needed and busted in coverage over and over again. That will make any offense with a pulse look like the Vikings did tonight.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

09-12-2017, 06:05 AM	#4
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by burningmetal The running game was not working. The swing passes weren't working. The downfield throws were, however, and THAT is what we simply didn't do enough of, in my opinion. If we would run actual screen passes (not the same thing as a swing pass, though Payton must not agree with me) where we can catch their defense off guard, like they did to us, maybe we'd take some pressure off of Drew. Those swing passes are always telegraphed, and rarely work as a result. The Vikings offense will rank in the lower half of the league again, because they don't have great personnel and they don't run anything magical. We gave an NFL QB all the time he needed and busted in coverage over and over again. That will make any offense with a pulse look like the Vikings did tonight. Burningmetal, the running game not working is simply not true... The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)... Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful... Agree with you about passing to the running backs; in the first half while in the lead 6-3, Brees' second longest completion was actually to Ingram for 18 yds... You mentioned telegraphed passes and the Vikings were definitely keyed on Kamara as Brees was 2 for 4 to Kamara for a net -6 yards in the first half - Payton was forcing it to Kamara when he should have used Ingram which would have kept the Vikes defense honest...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

09-12-2017, 08:02 AM	#5
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Burningmetal, the running game not working is simply not true... The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)... Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful... Agree with you about passing to the running backs; in the first half while in the lead 6-3, Brees' second longest completion was actually to Ingram for 18 yds... You mentioned telegraphed passes and the Vikings were definitely keyed on Kamara as Brees was 2 for 4 to Kamara for a net -6 yards in the first half - Payton was forcing it to Kamara when he should have used Ingram which would have kept the Vikes defense honest... You're entitled to your opinion if you believe that a fairly equal ratio of run to pass, equals success, but I disagree with you. The holes simply were not there, with the exception of two, maybe three runs. It's one of the main reasons we kept stalling and settling for field goals. When we decided to throw the ball down the field, even a little bit, we had some success, which is why it was so maddening to see how gun shy Payton was about calling more aggressive plays. But, for some reason, when we got into the red zone we suddenly abandoned what got us there, and stalled. When we scored 10 points in the 4th quarter, we were throwing the ball down the field. It sure wasn't the running game that got us going then. Of course, we had to run the play clock down to 10 seconds or less on just about every play when we were supposed to be in hurry up. There was no sense of urgency, at any point, even when we started moving the ball. Their pace seemed to be conceding defeat, whether that was their intention or not. neugey likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

09-13-2017, 10:15 AM	#6
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Payton need to go? Watched the game again last night and confirmed play calling has got to be more patient with the run game - from a post earlier in the thread... Originally Posted by jeanpierre [B]... the running game not working is simply not true... The Saints were leading the game 6-3 with a run-pass ratio of 16 run plays to 17 (14) pass plays; three of the pass plays were negated by penalty (hence the 17 (14) pass plays), two by the Vikings (T. Johnson - PF/Roughing Passer, E. Griffin - Offsides) and one by Saints (A. Peat - Holding)... Just because Ingram, Peterson, or Kamara tear off a run of 50 yds doesn't mean the run game wasn't successful... In the first half, we had RuYd plays of 9, 1, 3, 2, 2, 1, 4, 3, 3, 7, 2, 5, -1, 3, 2, 1... Again, the 20 yd gashes are great, but this Vikings defense was third (3rd) in pass defense, but only twentieth (20th) in rush defense last season... So the recipe for beating these physical defenses like the Vikings, Seahawks and Broncos is too pound them, running it right at their edge rushers... And another thing I didn't see with the Ingram and Peterson runs was a lot of pull-zone blocking to open the field, instead trying to run at L. Joseph... Running those wide zone sweeps, exposing their pass rushers to those remember me hits from our physical guards... Believe Payton learned his lesson and the MNF beating in the second half will reinforce the lesson... dizzle88 likes this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

09-13-2017, 10:50 AM	#7
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,739 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Watched the game again last night and confirmed play calling has got to be more patient with the run game - from a post earlier in the thread... So the recipe for beating these physical defenses like the Vikings, Seahawks and Broncos is too pound them, running it right at their edge rushers... And another thing I didn't see with the Ingram and Peterson runs was a lot of pull-zone blocking to open the field, instead trying to run at L. Joseph... Someway the Saints must establish a running attack going forward. Ingram, Peterson, Kamara etc ... there is no reason for us not to have a 90+ yard run game. Parcels always used to say that Payton was a bit too "pass happy". Run it down their collective throats ... even if it isn't working at first. WillMacKenzie likes this.

09-12-2017, 12:05 AM	#8
Papa Voodoo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 1,634	Re: Payton need to go? Drew hits Lewis and Coleman holds on everybody would feel different. We settled for too many FGs. jeanpierre likes this.

09-11-2017, 10:25 PM	#9
CharityMike Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Mid City, New Orleans Posts: 3,556	Re: Payton need to go? Well maybe I will pay more attention to his threads if this is the kind of stuff he is gonna bring to the table. Been avoiding his topics because they were usually things from way left field. halloween 65 and K Major like this.

09-11-2017, 10:51 PM	#10
halloween 65 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Grand Haven, Michigan by way of a little Mississippi River town in Louisiana Posts: 5,893	Re: Payton need to go? Originally Posted by CharityMike Well maybe I will pay more attention to his threads if this is the kind of stuff he is gonna bring to the table. Been avoiding his topics because they were usually things from way left field. He gets deep, sometimes too deep. I sometimes have a really hard time reading between his lines and have to read it several times and other times I think he screws with peoples heads. I have to say when I think he's messing with their heads he does a good job. It's kind of comical and he takes a beating for it. I usually don't respond because I don't think I could take half the beating that guy does. Not saying a word is sometimes best for me I learned that being married, it's gotten me out of jams for nearly 17 years with my wife so far. CharityMike likes this.

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