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He also said
\"Annually, reaches for a defensive lineman in the draft\" WRONG

\"Stumbles out of the gate\" WRONG

\"The Saints’ primary needs are all on the defensive side of the ball\" WRONG

\"But only Charles Grant of that group (which also includes Will Smith and Jonathan Sullivan) has cracked the starting lineup\" WRONG

\"On offense, Joe Horn is the best player\" WRONG (but debateable)

\"will probably reach for player in the first-round\" so far ONCE in 4 years.

\"Nothing else has changed about the Saints the last four years\" EXCEPT the roster ;)

\"Carolina COULD have as many as seven starters this season from its top eight picks the last four drafts\" AND COULD have as few as 3

\"New Orleans, the number COULD be as low as two – McAllister in 2001 and Grant in 2002\" AND COULD have 10

\"high picks – like Sedrick Hodge\" WRONG

\"Given the draft history, it’s surprising that New Orleans has been able to hang around the .500 mark for four seasons\" Given the draft history, I\'m surprised we haven\'t done much better than .500 for four seasons.

I think a better way to state this would have been \"Given their coaching staff, it\'s no surprise this team has finished .500 for four seasons\".

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by Danno]

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But we weren\'t talking about all that. We were talking about taking factual statements he did make and drawing the premisse of blowing the team up as he did. Now you are again disecting the rest of it when we agreed some of what was said is rubbish. But let\'s look.

Annually reaches ofr a d-lineman. You have to define what he means by reach. If he means simple takes one, he is pretty much right. If he means gets a palyer before their grade, he is wrong, except for Sully.

Stumbles out of the gate. Last year we were 4-8 after 12 games, we were 2-2 to start the season against subpar talent, I would call that stumbling out the gate.

Primary needs on defensive side of the ball. What\'s wrong about that? Aren\'t we all screaming for a LB and SS early int he draft? Seems right to me.

Only Charles Grant..etc. Well, Will didn;t start until Howard got hurt and Sullivan barely even played last year although healthy so I wouldn\'t call that wrong either. Maybe overstating.

Sedrick Hodge was a first day pick? 3rd round? That\'s high in my book. Not first round high, but first day picks who are useless is a waste IMO.

l

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

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Yes, you\'ve got to admit, the article posted... dead wrong... information, even if the overall theme of the article was valid.

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Never said it didn\'t, and I already highlighted the part I identified with. More than once.

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We all know what REACH means. I also know what annually means. Therfore my disagreement with \"Annually Reaching\"

. He said annually stumbles out of the gate. I remember two years we started strong and petered out in December.

he said they were ALL on the defensive side. Maybe I am nitpicking with that one though. MOST are on the D, in fact I\'d be happy if every pick was D

OK, I\'ll give you that one. But I\'d bet we\'re probably on par with most teams\' 3rd round picks still playing in this league.

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Well, in 2003 we started 1-3. We were 3-5 in out first 8. in 2002 we were 3-1 though. So if annually means the last two years, he is right, but if he is going back further, which from reading that I don\'t know if he is or isn\'t, he is wrong. But obviously outside of the opening paragraph or two the guy greatly overexaggerates the situation.

Agreed on everything else.

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again, i am not into arguing about what somebody else said and the details of their analysis. the summation that i already recopied once is what caught my attention, that i agree with, and think many cannot see: VERY mediocre for quite a run now, mediocre from underachievers not overachievers, talent that has not been translated to success, performance that can be charaterized as erratic at best. i hope my instincts of an overhaul needed are wrong and they make a superbowl run. if they do not, i hope benson and the fans will be as outraged over another 8-8 as much as a 3-13.

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I\'ve just read through all of these posts, and here is my assessment:

A bunch of you (looks like Whodi, LK, and GT) agree with this guy\'s CONCLUSION: that the Saints are most in need of \"blowing the team up and start over.\"

Danno\'s view appears to be this: the argument for that conclusion is based almost entirely on premises that are false.

There is some disagreement about a couple of the premises, and some disagreement about what a \"major\" change is.

Here is my question: what does \"blow the team up and start over\" mean? Until there is an answer to this question, I\'m not sure how to even assess his arguments for that (though I agree with Danno that most of the premises are plain false).

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here\'s one fantasy overhaul i shared kool. except that now you can get sharper for free. LOL

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...hread&tid=8875

TRADE
Darren Howard to Dallas for #42 2nd Rd and 2006 2nd Round
sounds like something both could accept
TRADE
Aaron Brooks to San Francisco for #33 2nd Rd and Rattay QB
McCarthy gets his boy, SF can draft Braylon Edwards
TRADE
#16 1st Rd and #82 3rd Rd to Philadelphia for #31 1st Rd and #35 2nd Rd
Philly has way too many draft picks for a conference champ
TRADE
2006 2nd Rd from Dallas to Houston for LB Jamie Sharper
this sounds a like more than they might be asking for him
DRAFT
#31 (Phil) Kevin Burnett LB
#33 (SF) Luis Castillo DT
#35 (Phil) Corey Webster CB
#40 Adam Terry OT
#42 (Dal) Andrew Walter QB

*Sharper pushes Watson outside or replaces Allen
*Burnett pushes Bockwoldt back on depth chart
*Castillo plugs the hole Sullivan didn\'t
*Webster competes against Fakhir. Loser forms great nickel/dime duo with Craft
*Terry either allows Mayberry to guard or competes with Stinchcomb for \'06 starting job
* Rattay starts until Walter is ready

ALTERNATIVE DRAFT PICKS
These could just as well be available in the #31-42 range:
LB
Blackstock, Thurman, Ruud
DT
Mosley, Patterson
DB
Browner, McFadden, Shazor, Bullocks, Nicholson
OT
Britt, Munoz, Johnson (from G)
QB
Campbell, Frye

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By \"blow up the team ansd start over\"
Do you mean get rid of our stars and find new ones
or
begin to place better players around our stars.

The way you say it makes me think you want to dump Deuce, Joe, Bentley, Young, Mackenzie, Holland, and now Mayberry, and Smith.

The last thing we need to do is start over. How do you propose we replace the people previously mentioned. If we tried to start over, their would be a chain reaction of terrible evets.
First, we trade all superstar players
Then, we are slappesd with major cap-penalties
Then, We have a terrible 2006 year
Then, no FA wants to come to a crappy team unless we dish out the dough
Then, we can\'t afford more than one star at most b/c of our cap penalties
Finally, the Saints have a span of ten years or so that are comparable to the Bengals before the 2003 season. i.e. 3-13





However, if you want to blow up a part of this team, you can have the FO ;)

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by TayTay]

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by TayTay]

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I am certain you did not read all the posts Tay cause that very point was addressed. Blowing up the team I take as A) coaches and front office--out and B) inconsistent players who are starters(Brooks, Allen, Gandy, Sullivan) and non contributing backups(Hodge, Bouman, etc.) are out. Start building replacements for these guys and wean them off the team. EVERYONE knows you can\'t just go on a cutting spree with the cap in place, but you can make precision moves designed at moving the team away from the identity it has set for itself.

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Geez people.

Some of you guys focus way too much on the past. It\'s like some of you are obsessed.

In case some of you haven\'t figured this out:

THE MEDIA\'S JOB ISN\'T TO BE HONEST.

I know that may come as a shock to some of you, but I speak the truth.

Danno pretty much set the record straight and all I hear is some folks trying to put a negative spin on everything.

Carry on :exclam:

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It\'s not like we are talking about the 49ers or the Cowboys, or any other team that has had their time in the sun. The fans in NO have had nothing to cheer about in 38 years, unless you want to count one playoff victory that got fumbled away to us as something to hang your hat on. Trying to downplay the past is fruitless, because it is there and the past will never change. Give us something to cheer about and maybe our attitude will change. Until then, it is the optimist that have to continually eat crow at the end of every season.

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Jesus... I missed a lot.

Just gonna start back where I left off:



Maybe it\'s just me, but 10 new starters doesn\'t mean 10 new players.... or more importantly, 10 better players.

To me, substituting Ashley Ambrose for Dale Carter is a push. Tebucky Jones for Sammy Knight is a downgrade. Ernie Conwell for David Sloan - push. Wayne Gandy for Kyle Turley - push at best. Jonathan Sullivan for Norman Hand - downgrade. Orlando Ruff for Charlie Clemmons - push at best. Derrick Rodgers for Hodge or Allen (slight upgrade).

I understand what you\'re saying Danno - but I think people hear are increasingly ignoring the meaning or spirit of a post and instead are dissecting the words. The point that the guy made is generally a good one. The Saints ignore major areas of need - DT, LB, HEAD COACH, DC, and on and on... you know this. When they do address needs, they do so inadequately.

I continue to believe that acting in a way that is totally insufficient to remedy a situation is tantamount to not acting at all.

WhoDat sprayed a million gallons of water on the house next door to JKool\'s. JKool\'s burned to the ground. So what is we signed Meier?? That\'s gonna put us over the hump?

If the Saints had three even average LBs and two average DTs would they have made the playoffs last year? I think so.

If the Saints had all-pros accross the entire o-line would that have done it? Probably not b/c the problem is on defense. Even with average players at LB and DT - which IS a MAJOR need - I still am not confident in Rick I\'m 2-47-1 as a head coach Venturi to put them in the right spots.

Not doing anything to fix those problems is inexcusable - whether your facts are wrong or not, you cannot make an argument to me why it\'s OK that the Saints have failed to do anything about Venturi or to adequately fill the needs at LB and DT.

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Don\'t forget he was an outstanding 1-31-1 while head coach over at Northwestern. Don\'t wanna sell him short.

His credentials are a veritable epitome of success.

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Now here is something I agree with wholeheartedly! That doesn\'t sound like \"blowing the team up and starting over.\" That sounds like making \"precision moves designed at moving the team away from the identity it has set for itself.\"

Granted, we haven\'t done that. However, this doesn\'t sound like a team that is \"broke and needs a major overhaul.\"

I think this entire disagreement is over the terms and not the substance.

Everyone agrees some substantial changes FOR THE BETTER need to be made. The changes are needed at Coach, LB, DT, and OL first and foremost. After that perhaps some changes are needed at QB (though this is not my position... yet), SS, and TE.

The Saints do not need to start over, they need to work harder, player harder, and have a freakin\' offseason that isn\'t Ho-Hum. We haven\'t had a non-Ho-Hum offseason in several years (and even that is debateable). I certainly agree that that is a problem.

This article that started the whole thing has a conclusion that many people here agree with, but it is a terrible article - I think we all pretty well agree.

I agree with Danno that an argument for this conclusion (or the \"spirit of the post\" if you want to put it that way) could have been made with fewer (or no) falsehoods and with more care and diligence than this yahoo gave it by pretty well any member of B&G. In fact, I think I\'ve heard it before, and it was better presented by guys like BMG, Whodi, LK, and so on (sorry to all the other guys who have made good arguments of this kind, my memory isn\'t what it once was).

PS - LK, I remember that suggestion. Ah... the memories. Do you think we can get Urlacher, though? ;)

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Does anyone have any ideas about DJ Johnson\'s character and work habits?

Maybe we need to reach for this guy.

The defense needs something. Since we can\'t do anything to change the coaching... [Hi FireVenturi!] we should keep reaching for players that can potentially override that poor coaching.

Getting another average player at 16 doesn\'t really help. Trading down for more average players proabably won\'t either.

So consider trading up for an exceptional player.

And yes I\'m well aware of the failed Sullivan experiment. However that guy wasn\'t an exceptional player, and he was poorly scouted. Let\'s pick someone who virtually everyone agrees is a can\'t miss, not just the Saints scouting and coaching staffs.

SFIAH

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:rollinglaugh:

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like bill clinton splaining football, eh?
:facesjump:

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We\'ll \"reach\" for Sully but we won\'t \"reach\" for DJ??? I\'ll never understand this FO for the life of me.

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Strengths: Tenacious with a motor that never quits...Extremely competitive and fiery...Very productive...Has a knack for making the big play...Good technician and smart...Will not be outworked on or off the field.
Weaknesses: Undersized and needs to add weight and get stronger...Not a great natural athlete...Not very fast.
Notes: Overachiever who gets the most out of his ability...If he doesn\'t make it lack of effort and determination won\'t be the reason.

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He works hard on and off the field, known for his work ethic and leadership. Those are things that should be found in every NFL player.

He lettered 3 times as a Wolverine using his skills as a blocking back. It has been said that he he won\'t be the \"game-breaker\" some teams might be looking for, he is a \"nose-breaker\". They are two different things all together, and sometimes a nose -breaker is just what a team needs. He isn\'t a finesse player and his block first mentality , combined with with his hard hits, earned him the respect of team mates.