This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

New Orleans Saints
If It Aint Broke … Hey Saints, It’s Broke
Is there any team in the league that needs to blow things up and start over more than the Saints? New Orleans has missed the playoffs four straight years, and if they were just a bad football team, that would be one thing. But they’re something far worse – a mediocre football team.

Four straight years of seven to nine wins. Four straight offseasons without making major adjustments to the roster. Four straight years of looking like a Super Bowl team one week, an expansion team the next. Four straight years of mediocrity under Jim Haslett.

Much like the Dolphins last year, the Saints need to be absolutely horrendous one of these seasons to shake them out of their doldrums. These .500 seasons just encourage the front office to leave things pretty much as is so the cycle can repeat itself the following year.

Annually, New Orleans tinkers with its roster, reaches for a defensive lineman in the draft, stumbles out of the gate, puts together a run at some point that has everyone believing they can make the playoffs, but falls just short.

The tinkering has been minimal this winter. The biggest name the Saints added in free agency has been former Buccaneer safety Dwight Smith, a versatile player who has also been a corner, but hardly a game-changing force. He’s also had a pair of gun-related arrests the last four years. So much for upgrading the character of the New Orleans locker room, which has been a mess since Albert Connell stole cash from Deuce McAllister’s locker and Joe Horn allegedly slept with Willie Roaf’s wife. Smith replaces Tebucky Jones, who was released after the Saints learned with Bill Belichick knew when he traded him to the Big Easy – “Tebucky� is Flemish for “Doesn’t Wrap Up.�

Antowain Smith was also added to serve as McAllister’s backup. Ho-hum. That ought to be good to move the Saints from 8 to 8.2 wins.

Draft Needs
The Saints’ primary needs are all on the defensive side of the ball, which is rather remarkable considering they have selected a defensive lineman in each of the last three first rounds. But only Charles Grant of that group (which also includes Will Smith and Jonathan Sullivan) has cracked the starting lineup. And with Darren Howard’s status uncertain – he has been hit with the franchise tag but may still be traded – the Saints still have a need along the line.

New Orleans would also like to address the linebacker position and get a safety to play behind Smith and Jay Bellamy.

On offense, Joe Horn is the best player, but he’s not getting any younger and the jury is still out on former first-rounder Donte’ Stallworth after three seasons, so receiver could also be a need.

But there’s no reason to suspect New Orleans will alter its defense-first strategy, and will probably reach for player in the first-round. Nothing else has changed about the Saints the last four years, so why should the draft strategy?

Recent Draft History
Remember how we pointed out how Carolina could have has many as seven starters this season from its top eight picks the last four drafts? For New Orleans, the number could be as low as two – McAllister in 2001 and Grant in 2002. You can watch a lot of Saints games without seeing any contributions from some of the other high picks – names like Devery Henderson, Sullivan, and Sedrick Hodge.

Given the draft history, it’s surprising that New Orleans has been able to hang around the .500 mark for four seasons. Unfortunately, it also means this is a team that is probably on the downside, not the upswing.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ram...?p=2497&cat=16

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

You sure know how to spread the sunshine. Not exactly what I would like pointed out to me so eaarly in the day but the truth hurts sometimes. Well said and many very good points. We haven\'t had an \"improvement\" plan since ?????? oh yea it was Jim Finks who actually gave a seconds thought to how to improve the team through the draft. Our FO seems to act as though every year we have to just use our picks in the draft because that is what we are supposed to do. I\'ve been back and forth between thinking our scouts suck or our FO sucks......I\'d really like to know who it is that inhales so vigorously!!

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

I said all along we shoulda just been 4-12 last year, then we could be talking about if we wanted DJ or Mike Williams. Now we muddle into prob having to reach for a player at 16 and still weren\'t in the playoffs. But what do I know?

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

as long as we address linebacker and OT..i\'m not against gettting another receiver or TE....

I think though if we could get more picks-say phily\'s it would help us greatly stock up.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

I think we\'ll trade down, unless we\'re going to take an OT.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

LKelly, I though you were much wiser than that. Its the typical clueless boob talk. As long as it\'s negative folks will eat it up.
Yes, there are actually several, but i imagine he didn\'t look very hard.

Uhh, hey Einstein did you forget the massive turnover in 2003, or the huge turn-over in 2002?
2004 was the ONLY year in which minor tweaking was attempted. Remember the \"continuity\" angle?

hasn\'t worked for us in 35 years, I wonder how it would suddenly work now?
Again, see 2001, 2002, and 2003. Must be talking about ONE player in particular who is common to all 4 years. Hmmm who could that be?
Yeah, Will Smith, Charles Grant, Darren Howard were all reaches huh? Seems to me there was only one reach in 2003. Or does he think one year constitutes annually. And we\'ve done both, started strong and finished weak, started weak and finished strong. This guy is the pied piper of negativity.
Grammar errors aside, yeah, thats why Bill franchised him, making him a top 5 paid safety in the league.

Don\'t think he was ever touted as a player to bring us 2 or 3 more wins. He was a league minimum signing. But if it helps attract the pessimism vultures go ahead and try to portray it as such.

I think Will Smith has started, and may be the starter for years to come. Is he trying to infer Will Smith was a reach, a bad pick? So of those 3 picks, one is considered a bust.
Oh thats right, they\'re all part of that \"annual reach\" for D-linemen.

didn\'t he just slam his character above with the Swight Smith diatribe?

1st round reaches....
Deuce McAllister? I don\'t think so

Donte Stallworth? Maybe, but he just said the jury was still out.

Charles Grant? I don\'t think so

Jonathan Sullivan? Ok there\'s ONE.

Will Smith? Not hardley.

So out of our last five 1st round picks, 1 was a reach, the jury is still out on one, but he\'s a productive starter, and the other three are excellent players. But yea, nothing else has changed about the way Saints writers pimp pessimism, so why should this year be any different. If people keep buying it, why stop selling it.

It would have helped a bit not losing an entire draft on a pot-head malcontent selected by the previous administation also. But lets look at our 1st and 2nd rounders shall we?
2000, no 1st, Howard in the 2nd

2001, Deuce in the 1st, no 2nd,

2002, Donte Stallworth, Charles Grant, LeCharles Bentley

2003, Jonathan Sullivan, Jonathan Stinchcomb

2004, Will Smith, Courtney Watson, Devery Henderson

We\'re more likely to have 10 starters from our 10 1st/2nd rounders than the 2 he suggests. Realistically (something foriegn to this guy) probably only 7 or 8 out of 10 assuming Sullivan, Stinchcomb, and Henderson remain back-ups. Not quite as horrendous as he portrays huh?

Hodge? a high pick? Wasn\'t he a 3rd rounder?

I couldn\'t agree less. The only thing I\'m encouraged about with this team is the personell we have. Coaches are a different story however.

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by Danno]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

most places are giving us a B for our drafts-and other than the sullivan debacle we\'ve done good.

the only thing (other than our defense needs upgrading esp. at linebacker) that most reports agree with this are that brooks needs to go and we need to end that experiment.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Danno,

Due to the numerous inaccuracies of this editorial, I think the point of the whole column has been lost to you. I think this guy is correct in his overall assessment of this team. Geez how many times do we have to have different people tell us the same things before we finally stop denying the cold hard truth. It\'s not about being negative. It\'s about reviewing results of our team\'s performance over the past 4 years, and it hasn\'t been good, by anyone\'s standards. Believe me, if we were doing well, then you\'d have people saying good things about the Saints. However, the Saints have a habit of letting the public down whenever they start to believe in the Black and Gold.

Depending on how you view this team, what he said is either correct or we are a much worse team than we think. If your view of the team is that we are underachieving and we have enough talent to get to the playoffs and beyond, then he\'s right that there must be drastic changes in our organization to help the team realize their potential. When he said the team needs to be blown up and reconstructed, I think he means to get rid of losers like Victor Riley, Sully, Ruff, Hodge, and any of the other numerous bums that wouldn\'t be starting for any other team in the league. If this team is as talented as we all say it is and they haven\'t gotten the job done, what other way than a massive purging of supporting players is going to help this team???

If this team is not as good as we think it is and they are truly doing the best that they can, then that is even worse. Either case is reason enough to make major changes if they can\'t get over the hump of mediocrity. How much longer do you wait before you decide enough is enough??? I for one thought that this last season would be the final straw.

I know you take exception to this joker saying that we habitually reach for first round picks. I know that is false too, but the memory of Sully being one of the biggest reaches in NFL history kind of negates all of our good choices. Think about it. Has there been a reach of this magnitude in recent memory??? I can\'t think of one. He was the second DT chosen and was ranked as low as the 7th on some teams\' draft boards. I wouldn\'t call Ryan Leaf a bust, because he was expected to be drafted where he was. And to tell you the truth, I am not that mad at Sully. I am more pissed off at a team making a pick that shouldn\'t have been made in a million years. So that falls squarely on the team. These outsiders don\'t \"have it in\" for the Saints or anything like that. They are just calling it how they see it. While his views on particular issues are lost to me and most other Saints fans, his overall message hits pretty close to home.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Did you even read my post?

Oh I get it. Since we\'ve sucked for so long and made one horrendous pick its OK to spew as much incorrect information as one see\'s fit. After all we suck. And since we suck, so does Deuce, and Howard, and Grant, and Bentley, and Will Smith, and McKenzie, and Brown, and Watson. Wha a group of total losers.

There are problems with this team. I simply prefer to actually address the real ones. You don\'t throw the baby out with the bath water.

Some may enjoy his inaccurate assessments, but I prefer living in the real world.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Nice summation GT. And I agree with you. I didn\'t pay attention to half the nonsense he said, but the one thing that struck a chord with me was: That pretty much summed it all up for me. We HAVEN\"T made major changes at any point. We have kept AB without competition. We have tinkered with this so and so and that so and so at DT for YEARS. We keep signing these low key guys without much on their resume, except this year. We traded Roaf cause of off the field problems, not his play. And if it was cause they thought he was declining, well he has continually shown the front office to be stupid. We traded Turley cause of his emotional probs(a good move). We traded Rickey cause he was A) Ditka\'s guy and B) a flake and C) had Deuce. We let Sammy walk cause they thought he was too slow. We watch big name FA after big name FA go to other teams year in and year out. And we sit back with a \"we have a plan\" mantra. Well if that plan is to be mediocre, it\'s working to perfection.

And I don\'t care who else we drafted, the Sully pick was such a HUGE gaffe it should never be ignored again. We weren\'t at number six originally, we traded TWO FIRST ROUNDERS to move up and select our bust, about 20 something spots before he was projected. I also think this was a bigger bust pick than Ryan Leaf. I am at a loss still at the magnitude of a choice that poor. It\'s mind-boggling. That\'s worse than trading two drafts for Ricky, cause at least Ricky got us two number one picks back. Sullivan has gotten us nothing but ridicule. So while this guy obviously exaggerates and skews facts, the basic premisse of what he is saying has merit.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

See 2002.

I can\'t believe people think this way. What basic premise? That we\'ve been mediocre? WOW what a freaking revalation.
That gives him a free pass to miss on everything else he says?
One horrendous decision, and the entire roster is a bunch of hacks?
You guys are smarter than this. Ya\'ll jus messin with me huh?

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Hold up dude. Just cause someone disagrees with you, no need to question intelligence. You know we are smart, we have a different opinion than you. First, the basic premisse is this which is what I agree with. When we were 4-8 last year, I prayed we would be 4-12. No more Haslett, very high draft pick, huge changes. No dice, we came back to even steven, as normal.

Second, what are these big changes you are harping about from 2002. I must have been asleep that year. What were they?

Number 3, where did he say the roster was hacks? I don\'t recall reading that. I recall reading him saying we needed major change, which we do. Do you disagree with that? When he talks about starting over, it could mean coaches, it could mean GM, it could mean players. You automatically took it to mean players, and more specifically AB.

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

I had a great post but it got lost so I\'ll kinda sum it all up.

whodi....I didn\'t think I was the only Saints fan that could take the gold-colored glasses off and see what the rest of the country sees. I was going to make the point about what Danno said about the \"hacks\" on our team. Look....I don\'t think that anyone doubts the talent level of Deuce, Will Smith, McKenzie and so forth. But why talk about what we are doing right when we\'ve done so much wrong for so long now? So many Saints fans think that the media owes it to us to praise our star players like they praise the star players for Philly and New England. However, no one cares how they perform when the team is freakin 8-8. What does it matter??? No one has to say nice things about our team, and I don\'t expect it.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

during those last four games-i was at my grandparents and my grandfather and I were watching the games and he says to me: because fo this the saints will bring back haslett and brooks...

now-I\'m not sure haslet is an awful coach-to be honest some of the talent has been so bad it\'s hard to tell. Brooks on the other hand has proven he needs to be benched, atleast..and shown that he can\'t do as he pleases and not be held acountable...for that I fault the coaching staff--doing the same thing each time and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. so, that said-I do fault our coaching staff for not developing players.

But the real problem in New Orleans si TOm Benson. as long as he is owner-we will be mediocre..just good enough to draw fans, and give us hope..but the bottom line will allways rule.

look at atlanta--when they finally got an owner who cared about football..they started to be aggressive in aquisitions. THey also blew up the team so they could get in a position to get Vick-which has lead to more money--now will vick be the savior--not until he learns to play football and use his teammates..which may not happen, but it has a chance..and right now they rule the division and are a force to be reckoned with.

let\'s be very honest-aaron brooks is not as talented as micheal vick, steve mcnair,Brett farve, donovan Mcnabb, peyton Manning or even drew bledsoe or Tom Brady....he is a third teir qb.

McCalister was a good pick up-the problem their was they knew he was injury prone, but didn\'t provide for a backup for him of any quality.

OUr line: we keep getting retreads-and that isn\'t working..Moving bentley was a stupid stupid move, and we should have gone strong after the kid from miss. state--can\'t remember his name...but he signed with seatle. My only hope here is that in the later rounds we will move to get Adam Terry and Wesly Britt (brown and baron will be gone, and barnes is a major project).

ON defense: Drafting smith was a brilliant move-esp. if we can turn Howard into a linebacker/cornerback and picks...

SUllivan was a stupid move...everyone knew it then and knows it now...we could have had him/or better with our picks and gotten a primo Cornerback that could/ve kept us from having to get MM..and even if we had gotten him-we\'d be more the better.

now: smith was a good signing, letting ambrose and t-bucky go were goo moves-esp. ambrose who is just taking up space.

Linebackers- Allen and colby are special teams/backups..watson is the only guy who we have that should be starting. We could have won more though if the coaching staff had held the players accountable.


that is the biggest problem-accountability, work ethic and proffessionalism....until we have that we won\'t have a playoff caliber team..regardless of whos at QB/RB/TE/kicker/etc.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

If they back up their statements with incorrect data, its impossible not to.

7 new starters on defense? The \"we just need time to gell\" era?
But his entire article focused on personnel. What did I miss? If he meant coaches and front office, why didn\'t he infer that? I would have enjoyed the article a bit more if he actually made a valid point occasionally. But maybe thats just me.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

look, I\'m a huge braves fan and a spurs fan...and I\'ll tell you-while the spurs ween\'t winning in the =playofs and with the braves loosing every october-the media doesn\'t want to talk about them..even when the do win..it\'s almost like the media is forced to talk about them-mostly because they aren\'t sexy....

but as long as we are a middle of the pack team--no one cares about the saints....except for those of us who follow them even though they break our hearts.

I\'m gonna add something else: it scares the crap out of me that our coach comes out and says that they really didn\'t have any direction the first 3 years or so..and now they do as for as what players they want...isn\'t that something you come in with as a coach/gm?

ALso..there are a number of really good LInebackers--old,a nd maybe not premier guys..but good guys to go with our youngsters now...but we don\'t get them? we don\'t get Rob morris, Sharper, Fujita? these guys are all better than Ruff, rodgers, Hodge, and maybe even allen.

We don\'t go after the top teir linebackers to give us a stud core and ease our draft? WTF?

I like some of the signings...I wished we got womack..but mayberry wasn\'t a bad signing....SMith and the TE were okay signings....and smith was a steal..but we could definitly do better than Ruff, rodgers, and hodge....

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by baronm]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Great post. If the author had written it the way you just did it would have been much more valid. But he didn\'t. He simply said we sucked, and backed it up with incorrect reasons for it.
You stated your point and backed it up with facts (some are debateable) that actually supported your position.
Your post (while I disagree with some of your assessments) was written better than the original one.
Thats what I\'m talkin bout!

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

[quoteGreat post. If the author had written it the way you just did it would have been much more valid. But he didn\'t. He simply said we sucked, and backed it up with incorrect reasons for it.
You stated your point and backed it up with facts (some are debateable) that actually supported your position.
Your post (while I disagree with some of your assessments) was written better than the original one.
Thats what I\'m talkin bout! [/quote:0ba25a402a]

Well mainly what\'s been posted in the articles are opinions, so he doesn\'t have to back it up with any facts. Most of what everyone has posted here have been opinions. I didn\'t really pay too much attention to his fine details, because each guy is going to have his different reasons for saying why the Saints should just start all over. He has his reasons, and I have my own(slightly different) reasons. I didn\'t agree with everything he said, but I didn\'t just go dismissing the whole post. He DID make valid points, which deep down I don\'t even think that you can dispute, even though you tried. Try to think objectively.

For all of the article\'s shortcomings, the point is that we agree(I think) on the main idea though....the Saints need to just start rebuilding because it isn\'t working so far.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Uh.... Danno? I remember 2002. What were those major changes again?

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

gt and whodi about summed up my thoughts in general but i must respond some...

the drafts have been a lot of hit and miss just like the team performance. besides sullivan as an all-time hall of shame bust, having two 2nd rounders that cannot even make the active roster is pretty bad as well. but i am not interested in bickering over the details of what someone else said. most sportswriting is a whole lotta fluff. i do think he tapped into a central truth though. how long can an owner or fans stand for mediocrity through schizophrenic performance? how long do you carry the tag as perhaps the most underachieving team in the nfl? how long do you go with a same basic formula of coaches and players with unsatisfactory results? four game win streaks or four game collapses at the end of the season are still yielding the same result. to my unprofessional eye i do not see the performance going the right direction even if the record stays the same. i am not a big pusher of stats but look at the team ranking in overall offense and defense since 2000-
YEAR--OFF--DEF
2000---10----11
2001---08----19
2002---18----28
2003---10----18
2004---16----32
these read what my eyes see, wrong direction.
i actually have some like for haz as a coach but i dunno if he can do it here. sometimes we all need a change to be the best we can be. remember belicheck was run out of cleveland. it i haven\'t ever heard or read anything about loomis that encouraged me about him being the navigator of this ship. i know we will not ever approach even the fringes of cap hell but i dunno if he has the imagination, guile, or balls to facilitate the push to the next level.
as far as the roster, it is certainly no group of hacks and i haven\'t seen that written. it is a problem for me though that with as much apparent talent base there is, the bottomline does not advance. and even if 32-32 for four seasons the play has deteriorated. going from 11th to 32nd in defense in five seasons warrants more than one major free agent upgrade, hope that a 7th round sophmore can hold the fort for an entire season, hope that a so far alltime bust can just play some, hope that the lights are on to stay for allen, and hope that your 33yr old SS can keep his performance up and his legs going.
ya know what? i hope as much or more than anyone around here. i have been hoping since my gary cuozzo, jim taylor, and doug atkins football cards were perched on my nightstand next to my bed. i hope they prove the naysayers wrong, make a 12-4 run, and win the superbowl. even more though i hope we do not see another 8-8 season filled with streaks and erratic play. worse would be the same team performance, go 8-8, and eek into the playoffs. that would probably secure the same formula for yet another season. i am a saints fan so patience has to be a part of my nature. jeff fisher went 31-33 his first four seasons. the titans then busted out and have been perennial contenders. the cap demon bit them this year but he and the front office still have the unwavering support of bud adams. if not past time, it certainly should be the defining season to determine the capabilities and direction of this team and it\'s staff... i hope!

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Actually guys, we\'re not (and haven\'t been) far from being a pretty strong team. I can think of one single act, just one discrete tweak, that would\'ve has us in the playoffs the last couple of years running.

Release Rick Venturi. Get a reasonably talented defensive coordinator.

Think about it. If we\'d had Mora jr. in here (who was available), or anyone of decent caliber, we\'d have been in the playoffs.... even with McCarthy\'s predictability, even with AB\'s embarrassments, etc. I sincerely believe that.

And if anyone else agrees with me then... why scrap the whole team and start all over?

The article above gave me that impression. \"Everything\'s broke, they\'ve always sucked, they always will. Scrap everything, top to bottom. Shake it up or expect no results\".

And I don\'t buy that.

I tend to agree with Danno that this guy draw blanket assumptions - without extolling valid easons for doing so.

And further, I think his conclusions are just... wrong.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Uhhh WhoDat, I don\'t thinkyou do.
http://www.neworleanssaints.com/coachbio.cfm?coachid=10

Hmmm, 10 new starters? I\'d say that constitutes major changes. But we\'re mediocre so don\'t let facts get in the way of the pessimism onslaught.

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by Danno]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

i\'ll just add his intro...
NOT a bad team, NOT no results- just more of the same is likely until the formula, whether staff or personnel is overhauled.

i hate to repeat but minnesota has had a very similar mo. they even snuck into the playoffs last seaon. but is was all too apparent that the same approach was only going to lead to the same results. so they shook it up. i personally think the move to defensive toughness is the way to win in the nfl. will their efforts pay off? maybe, maybe not. i still give them credit for not standing pat and being satisfied with a team that had weaknesses so apparent that they might make the playoffs (12 out of 32 is no great feat) but not contend for more.

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by LKelley67]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

We haven\'t been far from a pretty strong team??? Ok...you are entitled to your opinion.

Why scrap the team??? Because this same group has been in place for some time now. There are NO position battles for any main players, the coach is getting an extension after an 8-8 season. What reason do they have to do anything different?

Will you concede that there are players in the NFL that don\'t give a hoot about winning, just as long as they get stats and get paid? Do you concede that there are FO personnel that also don\'t care about winning, just as long as the organization makes money and they keep their jobs.

Because you know what, that is exactly what I see with the New Orleans Saints.

You have players on some teams that talk about watching film and training on improving their game. We have players that complain about contracts and \"fake love\" on the team. We have coaches that talk about being on freakin steriods, as if anyone cares. This team is very much unfocused and not acting like a team that cares about winning. Why should they care. They are getting paid millions of dollars for not putting in much work at all(relatively speaking).

I think that attitude wise, we are light-years away from being a very strong team. Sure this team has all of the talent, but none of the heart and desire, and it\'s not hard to see that if you just look. I think people are doing what the Saints FO is doing....looking at the numbers and stats on a player and measuring nothing else. It starts at the top for sure, but there is evidence all across the roster of this mentality.

Sure the Saints may look like a playoff team on paper, but that\'s why they play the games, right?

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by GoldenTomb]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

I was greatly suprsied that this didn\'t happen. I do think that that would atleast get us into the playoffs.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Alright Tomb, you made valid points.

So... what would you do to correct the problems? Scrap the entire team? Entire coaching staff? Entire front office? All of them, start over?

Bye-bye Deuce, bye-bye Horn, bye-bye Grant? But that\'s what the guy in the article is suggesting. Or at least, that\'s the impression the article gives me.

I know there are problems. And I further know they are fixable. But will management fix them? Nah, I don\'t think so. Management won\'t get it right.

But.... sinking the whole ship is no way to kill a rat. Starting over from scratch is not the right answer for the Saints problems. There\'s talent there. Surgical corrections need to be made. They start in management. Specifically Venturi. Probably Loomis.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

I don\'t think he meant scrap the entire team. No team ever does that. No way that we would get rid of Deuce, Bentley, Smith, Grant, Watson and McKenzie. But everyone else....I think most everyone else is expendable over time. Due to the salary cap and the penalties that would come with cutting players, it couldn\'t all be done at once anyway. But something has to happen to show these players that there will be consequences for substandard performance.

FO....definitely get rid of all of them. They are the cause of all of this.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Danno,

A) can you name these starters
B) who did they replace
C) were they improvements over their replacements or fill ins cause of stupid moves.

Show some facts. Names and replacements please. I don\'t like blanket statements without facts, remember what you told us? Was someone hurt that they had to get a new starter? Name names. Backwards is a direction too, so if new starters equals backwards steps, I wouldn\'t consider that major changes. A major change to me is TO going to Philly, one player, HUGE IMPACT. Dillon going to NE, one player HUGE IMPACT. Atlanta blowing up to get Vick. One player, HUGE IMPACT. We could have 22 new starters, if they all suck, that\'s not major change, that\'s major stupidity.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Now -that- I\'ll buy. That\'s more reasonable.

And LKelly put it very well in the thread just above. Much better than the guy in the original article did.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Look \'em up yourself. I gave you a fact-\"10 new starters\" thats nearly half the whole starting roster. Thats major change. Try and blow it off if you like.

He said we never had major changes. I showed a FACT that we had 10 new starters in 2002. If thats not enough for you what the hell is?

My freaking bad. But when he said \"Four straight offseasons without making major adjustments to the roster\" I thought he meant \"Four straight offseasons without making major adjustments to the roster\".
I also may have erred by thinking that replacing half your teams starters was major adjustments to the roster. :casstet:

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by Danno]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

That\'s not enough cause I don\'t know the circumstances of them starting. I guess you would say look them up myself, God forbid everyone else is held to the standard of backing up their facts that you are setting, but seem to be the exception for. That\'s cool dude. I guess your blanket statement with no discovery of the circumstances of having new starters will have to be enough to back what you say. Thanks.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

I\'ll repeat myself just for you.

FACTS AND A LINK. :casstet:
WHAT ELSE DO YOU REQUIRE, DNA? FINGERPRINTS? URINE SAMPLE?

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by Danno]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

So, if I post this article like Kelley did and take the first sentence like I did about the Saints needing to blow the team up and used the fact that they have been mediocre for the last four years as my fact, which it is, NOONE should be able to dispute that right? It is FACTS AND A LINK. Thanks for settling that. Let me try:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/ram...?p=2497&cat=16
FACTS AND A LINK.

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

looks indisputable to me ;)
:roll:

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

I just have 3 words...

You - are - a - moron! ;)

Its nice to actually have the Facts support your Conclusions.

Author-\"no major changes to roster in four years\"

FACT- \"2002, 10 new starters.\"

Now tell me where that is an unreasonable rebuttal.

[Edited on 6/4/2005 by Danno]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

I\'ll take that as a compliment. :P

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

It\'s not in the least, I just asked you to qualify it in the hopes we could have a discussion about those changes and see if they were indeed major. No biggie. This moron was just asking for too much. ;)

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Major or successful? He said major. I think 10 new starters is a major adjustment to the roster. Maybe not major improvements, but thats not what he said. He said \"major adjustments to the roster\".


[Edited on 6/4/2005 by Danno]

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

danno i think there might be some common ground found if replacing the word changes with improvements.

i did a quickie check to compare changes/improvements...

2000 vs. 2004 and which is better

brooks brooks even
williams deuce 2004 (tho off last yr)
smith karney 2000
horn horn even
jackson stallworth 2000 for what he was doing then vs. potential
hall boo williams 2004
fontenot bentley 2000 as a center
naeole holland even
williams jacox 2004
roaf gandy 2000
turley riley 2000

offense about the same overall even though 2000 was 10th and 2004 16th ranked

howard howard even
whitehead grant 2004
johnson young 2000
glover anybody 2000
fields allen 2000
smith watson 2000
mitchell bockwoldt 2000
thomas mackenzie 2004
weary brown even
kelly bellamy 2004
knight jones 2000

distinctly better, whaddya expect tho 11th to 32nd

there is a big hole in the middle of the defensive line with only a young somewhat undersized good kid behind them now. then there were 2 all pro types with a veteran presence behind them. we\'re looking at serious potential problems at OT when we had all pro types there. --just to point out two spots. overall, i do not see the personnel moves cumulatively improving the product on the field regardless of what the record is. the coaching personality of a team should get better and become refined in time. after four years they are still searching for a personality. it appears more disjointed and out of sync now than then imo.

who cares if there was major change or no change if the bottomline stays unacceptable. if the record was 32-32 and i saw a team strategy and players growing, on the brink, ready to bust out, i\'d be cheerleading. i do not only not see that, i see less tools out there and incompetent or haphazard management of what there is to implement.

This Guy Has Been Reading My Posts
 

Yes, but is that \"major\" adjustments or just numerous adjustments? That\'s what I was hoping to find out. If you traded a Roaf and moved a Turley over, I wouldn\'t call that major. Yes it is AN adjustment, but not major. Like I said, Philly getting TO is MAJOR. and that is just one player. Dillon and NE, MAJOR. Hell Kearse in Philly too. Those are major adjustments, but they are not numerous. The adjustments I recall us making were numerous, just not major. That\'s why I asked.