Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham

saintsfan1976 · 03-05-2018, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Personally I really don't care how some are bent out of shape by media twisted dissing of the Saints by Graham. All I know is that he remained a friend of Brees and is still a respected player. If you as fans are bent out of shape it doesn't matter at all. Get over it. Get real.

Were his worss twisted? Was the holdout for record money twisted? Was the precipitous drop in production without Brees twisted?

If not, the only thing I’d be bent out of shape over is missing out on a more talented TE by signing Graham instead.

AsylumGuido · 03-05-2018, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Were his worss twisted? Was the holdout for record money twisted? Was the precipitous drop in production without Brees twisted?

If not, the only thing I’d be bent out of shape over is missing out on a more talented TE by signing Graham instead.

Not sure what a "worss" is.

And he never held out for record money. Get your facts straight. The NFLPA used his declaration as a TE as opposed to a WR to present a test case to the league. It had nothing what so ever to do with any record breaking attempt at anything.

And, no, the precipitous drop had everything to do with being misused by Seattle.

saintsfan1976 · 03-06-2018, 04:37 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Not sure what a "worss" is. And he never held out for record money. Get your facts straight. The NFLPA used his declaration as a TE as opposed to a WR to present a test case to the league. It had nothing what so ever to do with any record breaking attempt at anything.

And, no, the precipitous drop had everything to do with being misused by Seattle.

Graham wanted more money than the TE franchise tag. Fact. And being tagged as a WR meant about $5M more at the time. Fact. So no, the NFLPA didn’t dream up the scenarios. JG held out or fought for more money than the Saints wanted to pay him. In the end he became the highest paid right end in history. Fact!

Worth it? I thought so. JG was historic at his position. But he faded at the end the very next season.

And no, Seattle couldn’t get the most out of Graham and it cost Darrell Bevell his job.

AsylumGuido · 03-06-2018, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Graham wanted more money than the TE franchise tag. Fact. And being tagged as a WR meant about $5M more at the time. Fact. So no, the NFLPA didn’t dream up the scenarios. JG held out or fought for more money than the Saints wanted to pay him. In the end he became the highest paid right end in history. Fact!

Worth it? I thought so. JG was historic at his position. But he faded at the end the very next season.

And no, Seattle couldn’t get the most out of Graham and it cost Darrell Bevell his job.

Sorry, but YOU have this wrong. The NFLPA used the Graham case to try to set a precedent. Graham NEVER personally demanded WR money. Go check it out. THIS is a FACT. Graham did, however, agree, with the consent of his agent, to allow the NFLPA to use his case as a test case. By the way, the NFLPA did the exact same thing when they used Brees' situation concerning a second franchise tag by a different team.

In both cases the NFLPA had the long-term good of their constituents in mind and it was about nothing but business. I cannot understand why some fans take these type of issues so personally. It makes no sense. The teams and the players know better.

saintfan · 03-06-2018, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Sorry, but YOU have this wrong. The NFLPA used the Graham case to try to set a precedent. Graham NEVER personally demanded WR money.

I've tried to factor this into my own opinion, and as I said earlier we must all recognize this is a business, but Jimmy's arm wasn't twisted. He is the captain of his own ship. He could have shut all that down the minute he wanted to by telling his agent to shut up and sit down. I'm not buying it, particularly after his parting shots against the organization, as if he had no role in his departure. Had he (via his agent) been reasonable he'd have been a Saints for life.

I'm over it, but Jimmy wasn't "merely pawn, in game of life". Agents are like lawyers. They must be managed, otherwise they'll run up your bill and screw up your life.

AsylumGuido · 03-06-2018, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by saintfan

I've tried to factor this into my own opinion, and as I said earlier we must all recognize this is a business, but Jimmy's arm wasn't twisted. He is the captain of his own ship. He could have shut all that down the minute he wanted to by telling his agent to shut up and sit down. I'm not buying it, particularly after his parting shots against the organization, as if he had no role in his departure. Had he (via his agent) been reasonable he'd have been a Saints for life.

I'm over it, but Jimmy wasn't "merely pawn, in game of life". Agents are like lawyers. They must be managed, otherwise they'll run up your bill and screw up your life.

It was not Graham's agent driving the truck. It was the NFLPA and their bank of lawyers. In this case Graham was exactly what you claim he wasn't ... a pawn. Yes, his agent had a vested interest, yet neither he, nor Graham, was the driving force. During the whole ordeal Graham was completely out of the picture. He never made any statement, nor even an utterance. The whole confrontation was between the players' association and the league's front office. The PA had been waiting for an opportunity to make the challenge and Graham's case happened to be their first, and best, opportunity.

Graham was just a 28 year old kid and the NFLPA was perhaps the most powerful union in the world. He had little say in the matter. It is easy for a fan to say he should have stood up to his union, but that's easier said than done.

saintfan · 03-06-2018, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

It was not Graham's agent driving the truck. It was the NFLPA and their bank of lawyers. In this case Graham was exactly what you claim he wasn't ... a pawn. Yes, his agent had a vested interest, yet neither he, nor Graham, was the driving force. During the whole ordeal Graham was completely out of the picture. He never made any statement, nor even an utterance. The whole confrontation was between the players' association and the league's front office. The PA had been waiting for an opportunity to make the challenge and Graham's case happened to be their first, and best, opportunity.

Graham was just a 28 year old kid and the NFLPA was perhaps the most powerful union in the world. He had little say in the matter. It is easy for a fan to say he should have stood up to his union, but that's easier said than done.

Well I wasn't there so I can never know, but I know that I simply do not believe that Jimmy was simply an unwilling pawn in his own contract negotiation. The fact that Jimmy never made any statement was because his agent told him to sit down and shut up and that is what he did. He didn't have to. He could have stopped that madness at any time - he was holding out for as much money as he could get. To that end I don't necessarily blame the man, but the tactics that were used were unsightly and cost him his position on our team. He was not beholden to any other person or group of people other than by choice.

If anything else were true somebody would have gone to jail.

burningmetal · 03-06-2018, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

I've tried to factor this into my own opinion, and as I said earlier we must all recognize this is a business, but Jimmy's arm wasn't twisted. He is the captain of his own ship. He could have shut all that down the minute he wanted to by telling his agent to shut up and sit down. I'm not buying it, particularly after his parting shots against the organization, as if he had no role in his departure. Had he (via his agent) been reasonable he'd have been a Saints for life.

I'm over it, but Jimmy wasn't "merely pawn, in game of life". Agents are like lawyers. They must be managed, otherwise they'll run up your bill and screw up your life.

What you just said is my opinion of every argument anyone tries to make on behalf of any player, in any sport.

I get sick of fans trying to twist everything into being the agent or union's fault. We all get that it is a business, but if you want to stay somewhere, be reasonable. If it's about the money then just admit it. That's why people get upset at players like Jimmy Graham. They want the money, but they also expect that what they want should take precedence over the team's overall needs, and they whine about being disrespected.

We should all be so fortunate as to be "disrespected" with an offer of several million dollars a year.

I will say, however, that while I don't believe in giving players a pass and blaming everything on the union or agent, I do believe that labor unions are bad ideas. I'm fine with individuals filing grievances if they have legitimate evidence that their production (in whatever field of work) is not being compensated equally with other workers or players with similar production.

But unions and their members FORCE employers to pay more to employees who don't really deserve high wages or salaries. The inflation that results from these kinds of demands causes players like Andy Dalton to get an over 100 million dollar contract and, in turn, prices a lot of tickets out of range for consumers.

In the MLB, the players union has been crying about "collusion" between owners because the free agent market has been slow this year. Maybe they ARE colluding. Or, maybe most teams just can't afford what players and agents are demanding. And, by the way... what exactly does a union do, if not COLLUDE?

So, yes, the union effects things greatly, but unions are made up of the very players it represents. Players can think for themselves, but they want that dough.

saintsfan1976 · 03-06-2018, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Sorry, but YOU have this wrong. The NFLPA used the Graham case to try to set a precedent. Graham NEVER personally demanded WR money. Go check it out. THIS is a FACT. Graham did, however, agree, with the consent of his agent, to allow the NFLPA to use his case as a test case. By the way, the NFLPA did the exact same thing when they used Brees' situation concerning a second franchise tag by a different team.

In both cases the NFLPA had the long-term good of their constituents in mind and it was about nothing but business. I cannot understand why some fans take these type of issues so personally. It makes no sense. The teams and the players know better.

I am far from infallible. Maybe I do need to dig deeper - and I will. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

AsylumGuido · 03-06-2018, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

I am far from infallible. Maybe I do need to dig deeper - and I will. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

Yes. Do some digging. I really kept up with that whole affair. As most around here know I really get into the financial and contractual aspects of the league and the NFLPA's handling of the Graham tag was a major tipping point in future contract negotiations league wide. I'll guarantee you that there wasn't a single article concerning the case that I did not read. During the entire proceedings not a word was heard from Graham personally and even his agent was unusually quiet.

Graham caught the backlash from fans that only got the slanted story from click bait blogging hacks that throw stuff against the wall hoping that something might actually stick.

03-05-2018, 06:53 PM	#1
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 11,036 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Personally I really don't care how some are bent out of shape by media twisted dissing of the Saints by Graham. All I know is that he remained a friend of Brees and is still a respected player. If you as fans are bent out of shape it doesn't matter at all. Get over it. Get real. Were his worss twisted? Was the holdout for record money twisted? Was the precipitous drop in production without Brees twisted? If not, the only thing I’d be bent out of shape over is missing out on a more talented TE by signing Graham instead. RockyMountainSaint, SmashMouth, Rugby Saint II and 1 others like this.

03-05-2018, 08:39 PM	#2
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,674	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Were his worss twisted? Was the holdout for record money twisted? Was the precipitous drop in production without Brees twisted? If not, the only thing I’d be bent out of shape over is missing out on a more talented TE by signing Graham instead. Not sure what a "worss" is. And he never held out for record money. Get your facts straight. The NFLPA used his declaration as a TE as opposed to a WR to present a test case to the league. It had nothing what so ever to do with any record breaking attempt at anything. And, no, the precipitous drop had everything to do with being misused by Seattle. Rell&Gold likes this.

03-06-2018, 04:37 AM	#3
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 11,036 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Not sure what a "worss" is. And he never held out for record money. Get your facts straight. The NFLPA used his declaration as a TE as opposed to a WR to present a test case to the league. It had nothing what so ever to do with any record breaking attempt at anything. And, no, the precipitous drop had everything to do with being misused by Seattle. Graham wanted more money than the TE franchise tag. Fact. And being tagged as a WR meant about $5M more at the time. Fact. So no, the NFLPA didn’t dream up the scenarios. JG held out or fought for more money than the Saints wanted to pay him. In the end he became the highest paid right end in history. Fact! Worth it? I thought so. JG was historic at his position. But he faded at the end the very next season. And no, Seattle couldn’t get the most out of Graham and it cost Darrell Bevell his job. SmashMouth and Beastmode like this.
	Last edited by saintsfan1976; 03-06-2018 at 04:57 AM..

03-06-2018, 08:04 AM	#4
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,674	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Graham wanted more money than the TE franchise tag. Fact. And being tagged as a WR meant about $5M more at the time. Fact. So no, the NFLPA didn’t dream up the scenarios. JG held out or fought for more money than the Saints wanted to pay him. In the end he became the highest paid right end in history. Fact! Worth it? I thought so. JG was historic at his position. But he faded at the end the very next season. And no, Seattle couldn’t get the most out of Graham and it cost Darrell Bevell his job. Sorry, but YOU have this wrong. The NFLPA used the Graham case to try to set a precedent. Graham NEVER personally demanded WR money. Go check it out. THIS is a FACT. Graham did, however, agree, with the consent of his agent, to allow the NFLPA to use his case as a test case. By the way, the NFLPA did the exact same thing when they used Brees' situation concerning a second franchise tag by a different team. In both cases the NFLPA had the long-term good of their constituents in mind and it was about nothing but business. I cannot understand why some fans take these type of issues so personally. It makes no sense. The teams and the players know better. SaintFanInATLHELL and K Major like this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

03-06-2018, 08:16 AM	#5
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Sorry, but YOU have this wrong. The NFLPA used the Graham case to try to set a precedent. Graham NEVER personally demanded WR money. I've tried to factor this into my own opinion, and as I said earlier we must all recognize this is a business, but Jimmy's arm wasn't twisted. He is the captain of his own ship. He could have shut all that down the minute he wanted to by telling his agent to shut up and sit down. I'm not buying it, particularly after his parting shots against the organization, as if he had no role in his departure. Had he (via his agent) been reasonable he'd have been a Saints for life. I'm over it, but Jimmy wasn't "merely pawn, in game of life". Agents are like lawyers. They must be managed, otherwise they'll run up your bill and screw up your life. burningmetal likes this.
	C'mon Man...

03-06-2018, 08:38 AM	#6
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,674	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by saintfan I've tried to factor this into my own opinion, and as I said earlier we must all recognize this is a business, but Jimmy's arm wasn't twisted. He is the captain of his own ship. He could have shut all that down the minute he wanted to by telling his agent to shut up and sit down. I'm not buying it, particularly after his parting shots against the organization, as if he had no role in his departure. Had he (via his agent) been reasonable he'd have been a Saints for life. I'm over it, but Jimmy wasn't "merely pawn, in game of life". Agents are like lawyers. They must be managed, otherwise they'll run up your bill and screw up your life. It was not Graham's agent driving the truck. It was the NFLPA and their bank of lawyers. In this case Graham was exactly what you claim he wasn't ... a pawn. Yes, his agent had a vested interest, yet neither he, nor Graham, was the driving force. During the whole ordeal Graham was completely out of the picture. He never made any statement, nor even an utterance. The whole confrontation was between the players' association and the league's front office. The PA had been waiting for an opportunity to make the challenge and Graham's case happened to be their first, and best, opportunity. Graham was just a 28 year old kid and the NFLPA was perhaps the most powerful union in the world. He had little say in the matter. It is easy for a fan to say he should have stood up to his union, but that's easier said than done.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

03-06-2018, 10:57 AM	#7
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by AsylumGuido It was not Graham's agent driving the truck. It was the NFLPA and their bank of lawyers. In this case Graham was exactly what you claim he wasn't ... a pawn. Yes, his agent had a vested interest, yet neither he, nor Graham, was the driving force. During the whole ordeal Graham was completely out of the picture. He never made any statement, nor even an utterance. The whole confrontation was between the players' association and the league's front office. The PA had been waiting for an opportunity to make the challenge and Graham's case happened to be their first, and best, opportunity. Graham was just a 28 year old kid and the NFLPA was perhaps the most powerful union in the world. He had little say in the matter. It is easy for a fan to say he should have stood up to his union, but that's easier said than done. Well I wasn't there so I can never know, but I know that I simply do not believe that Jimmy was simply an unwilling pawn in his own contract negotiation. The fact that Jimmy never made any statement was because his agent told him to sit down and shut up and that is what he did. He didn't have to. He could have stopped that madness at any time - he was holding out for as much money as he could get. To that end I don't necessarily blame the man, but the tactics that were used were unsightly and cost him his position on our team. He was not beholden to any other person or group of people other than by choice. If anything else were true somebody would have gone to jail.
	C'mon Man...

03-06-2018, 12:32 PM	#8
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by saintfan I've tried to factor this into my own opinion, and as I said earlier we must all recognize this is a business, but Jimmy's arm wasn't twisted. He is the captain of his own ship. He could have shut all that down the minute he wanted to by telling his agent to shut up and sit down. I'm not buying it, particularly after his parting shots against the organization, as if he had no role in his departure. Had he (via his agent) been reasonable he'd have been a Saints for life. I'm over it, but Jimmy wasn't "merely pawn, in game of life". Agents are like lawyers. They must be managed, otherwise they'll run up your bill and screw up your life. What you just said is my opinion of every argument anyone tries to make on behalf of any player, in any sport. I get sick of fans trying to twist everything into being the agent or union's fault. We all get that it is a business, but if you want to stay somewhere, be reasonable. If it's about the money then just admit it. That's why people get upset at players like Jimmy Graham. They want the money, but they also expect that what they want should take precedence over the team's overall needs, and they whine about being disrespected. We should all be so fortunate as to be "disrespected" with an offer of several million dollars a year. I will say, however, that while I don't believe in giving players a pass and blaming everything on the union or agent, I do believe that labor unions are bad ideas. I'm fine with individuals filing grievances if they have legitimate evidence that their production (in whatever field of work) is not being compensated equally with other workers or players with similar production. But unions and their members FORCE employers to pay more to employees who don't really deserve high wages or salaries. The inflation that results from these kinds of demands causes players like Andy Dalton to get an over 100 million dollar contract and, in turn, prices a lot of tickets out of range for consumers. In the MLB, the players union has been crying about "collusion" between owners because the free agent market has been slow this year. Maybe they ARE colluding. Or, maybe most teams just can't afford what players and agents are demanding. And, by the way... what exactly does a union do, if not COLLUDE? So, yes, the union effects things greatly, but unions are made up of the very players it represents. Players can think for themselves, but they want that dough. jnormand likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

03-06-2018, 08:58 AM	#9
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 11,036 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Sorry, but YOU have this wrong. The NFLPA used the Graham case to try to set a precedent. Graham NEVER personally demanded WR money. Go check it out. THIS is a FACT. Graham did, however, agree, with the consent of his agent, to allow the NFLPA to use his case as a test case. By the way, the NFLPA did the exact same thing when they used Brees' situation concerning a second franchise tag by a different team. In both cases the NFLPA had the long-term good of their constituents in mind and it was about nothing but business. I cannot understand why some fans take these type of issues so personally. It makes no sense. The teams and the players know better. I am far from infallible. Maybe I do need to dig deeper - and I will. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

03-06-2018, 11:03 AM	#10
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,674	Re: Saints interested in reunion with Jimmy Graham Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 I am far from infallible. Maybe I do need to dig deeper - and I will. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Yes. Do some digging. I really kept up with that whole affair. As most around here know I really get into the financial and contractual aspects of the league and the NFLPA's handling of the Graham tag was a major tipping point in future contract negotiations league wide. I'll guarantee you that there wasn't a single article concerning the case that I did not read. During the entire proceedings not a word was heard from Graham personally and even his agent was unusually quiet. Graham caught the backlash from fans that only got the slanted story from click bait blogging hacks that throw stuff against the wall hoping that something might actually stick.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

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