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If I remember correctly (and I do) there were plenty of people on this very site whining about the picks Loomis made. They went on and on about who we should have gotten here and who we should have gotten there.

Well, as it turns out, last was a pretty good draft for our team. We had 3 of the 7 starting by season's end and a 4th (Will Smith) showiing how good of a pick he was. A 5th (Henderson) should have been on the field, but apparently couldn't digest the playbook.

Yep, the picks obviosuly were horrible. Good thing we had all you complainers pointing it out to us.

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..then again, anyone can start on a 8-8 team...

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Sweet. Sign me up. What\'s the league minimum? 250,000? Yup, that is like five years\' salary for me! I\'m in.

If anyone can play for an 8-8 team, does that mean I can get a starting sallary on a 4-12 team? Woohoo! I\'ll be rollin\' in it.

;)

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Wow, last year we picked another second rounder who didn\'t see the field. I am impressed. And who complained about Will Smith? I didn\'t. I was glad he wasn\'t a DT, and knew Howard was at the end of the road. And our draft picks started becase of injuries, not because of overwhelming play. They had actually benched Watson, see Ruff getting burned in the first Tampa game by a TE. And we were 4-8 when they got playing time. Yeah, sounds like a team heading for the playoffs cause of their rookies. But I guess things can be spun any way possible.

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howard at the end of the road? which howard are you talking about? again, to think the saints would just give away one of their best players for a roll in the draft, i just don\'t see it. oviously, the saints don\'t see it just yet either, but there\'s still the 6th and 7th to be had...........smitty

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smitty --

Now you see why WhoDat is egging whodi about Howard still being here.

If you listen to whodi, then you\'d think Howard is some washed-up bum that should be kicked off the team because he can no longer produce.

I don\'t know why saintwhodi has it in for Howard. But he does!

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Gumbo, you seriously can not be this simple, but I guess anything is possible.

I told WhoDat two days before the draft I would not be surprised if Howard was still here after the draft.

I am not the only one saying he needs to be traded, but some things are too complicated to see I guess.

End of the road meaning here, in New Orleans, his contract was coming up. Not as a player. Nice try.

I guess I have it in for Howard, when the team spent the whole off-season trying to trade him. I guess they have it in for him too huh? But what do I expect from a guy who wants to have Brooks\' baby.

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Last year:

Will Smith - good pick in a position we were already deep in - we needed a LB.
Devery Henderson - never played, second round pick with no impact whatsoever
Courtney Watson - Jury still out, played but only after everyone else proved they were worse. May turn into something eventually.
Mike Karney - Played because we have no other FB, even so he didn\'t start the year because of the 2 TE set. That\'s how much confidence they had in him in the beginning. I like the guy, though.
Rodney Liesle - Never saw the field, even though he is a DT. Howard Green played, but not him.
Colby Bockwoldt - 7th rounder winds up starting in our LB corp, not an indication he is good but rather how bad the others are.

Yeah, great draft last year.

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I guess you expect all 7 to start. That\'s realism, baby!

I disagree with your analysis of Watson and Karney. First, Karney started after we abandoned that rediculous 2 TE set. It\'s not like they decided to go to the 2 TE set because they drafted him. That was in the works all offseason, obviously.

As far as Watson, I thought he played well for a rookie. He began the season as starter, if I remember correctly, and was replaced when Haz started freaking about the losing record.

BTW, Bock was so bad that the defense got better while he was starting! That sucks for a 7 round pick.

Like I said, I guess you expect them all to start.

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I agree completely. Karney is a beast, and a damn fine FB. That was a GREAT pick.

Also, we traded a 3rd for a 2nd rounder last year. That 2nd allowed us to get Mike McKenzie. Also a damn fine move in my book. We should have traded our 4th this year for a 3rd next year.

Watson is also the best LB on our team. Say what you want about how good our other LBs are, that fact alone makes him a good pick.

We pick a guy in the 7th who ends up starting, makes a great special teams contribution and people are complaining? Go see how many 7th rounders even made their squads last year, then we\'ll talk (and I\'ll eat my words on this if it is more than a handful).

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PS - Good strategy. I think it is very hard to evaluate a draft immediately following the draft itself. A year later may still be too soon, but at least there is some time to see the players on the field, allow the plan to develop, and see just how wise everyone actually is.

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Wow. completely amazing. This guy wouldn\'t start for 31 other teams but because he starts for the black and gold on the last ranked defense he is something special. We really are LB starved. :casstet:

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Listen Scotty,

Let\'s be realistic here. The Will Smith pick turned out to be a fairly good one. I am still convinced that it wasn\'t the best AT THAT TIME. Long-term, I don\'t know that I ever argued that it wasn\'t a good pick. Smith will be a good player with the Saints for the next few years until his contract is up. Then we\'ll dump him. :)



As for the other players, there\'s not a lot to pound your chest about. As a second-round pick, Henderson was worthless. Let\'s see if he even steps on the field this year. So far, that pick has been an absolute waste.


Then let\'s look at the other guys:

Watson and Buckwoldt - both starters on maybe the worst linebacking corp in the NFL. Not impressive. While I like both players and think both can be solid starters in the NFL, I\'m not ready to call either a success. How many other teams do you think Buckwoldt would have started for?


Karney - another guy I like, but again, he started b/c there is no one else. Is this guy actually a good FB? Or is he all we\'ve got? I dunno. I know I think that he can be good, but again, he\'s still got things to prove.


Liesle - played b/c A) the Saints use a platoon/rotation system in the D-line and B) because our first rounder from two years ago is too fat and lazy to get on the field. C\'mon.


I want all these guys to succeed, and they may all do that.... BUT, to cite the fact that they started as proof that they are good players (and therefore Loomis drafted well) is based on faulty logic, IMO, that ignores the fact that these players started at our weakest positions where there simply weren\'t other options.

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I never said that starting alone makes the picks good.

The evidence is there back it up.

Bockwoldt and Watson were on the field during our d\'s finest moments last year. Regardless of how they got there, the overall D looked better with them in than it had earlier in the season without them. They\'re both rookies, btw, and that makes them good picks so far. Both of them could flop this year and be out of the league. Then my opinion of the picks would obviously change (as it will anyway), but based on what has already occurred, they\'re good pickups.

AS far as Smith goes, I\'m not saying that the org made the best pick possible. All I\'m saying is that they made some pretty good picks. Smith is included in that.

Karney might have been the best pick of them all. We needed a FB and got someone that I have been very impressed with. I\'m sure he needs to get better, but he appears to be doing well. I love him as a short yardage pass option out of the backfield. We should have used him more last year.

The thing is most of what I\'m hearing negative about the picks of \'04 are really problems with the team rather than the picks themselves. For example, Colby wouldn\'t have started if our LB\'s didn\'t suck so bad. That may be true, but the fact that out LBs do suck and he was able to come in as a rookie and play pretty good says positive things about him. Show me another second day pick LB that went into any game and played better than Colby. That was huge value pick, imo. The way he played it looks like he should have easily been a 3rd or 4th rounder and we got him at 7. THAT makes him a good pickup.

You do like value picks , don\'t you, WhoDat?

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now billy, if you go back and find where i brought up why howard should stay if we could not get equal value for him, i recall you telling me howard has probably seen his best yrs. here...........remember? still don\'t agree with that..........
howard may put up his best #\'s here this yr should he stay.......
he\'s a player, something every team wants from their people.
and what if pray tell, should one of our overloaded, talented,
capped out to the max luxuries go down in training? as with other teams? again, why get antsy? as far as giving up howard for a 2nd cause that\'s all he\'ll fetch, pleasssssssssssee.
most of you say we waste the 2nd\'s not to mention some of the 1st\'s....................where is the compensation? i still don\'t see it..............smitty

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smitty --

That was whodi (and a couple of others) saying we should get rid of Howard at all costs. NOT me!!

The ONLY way I wanted to get rid of Howard is if we got good value. I have NO problem with Howard being on our team.

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LOL - he\'s using my logic against me! :)

I\'m not necessarily disagreeing with you... well sort of. If you had said that they were NOT bad picks, I can\'t argue. But you said that they were good picks. I don\'t know that\'s true. They are definitely not bad. If they appear good now, it\'s b/c the team sucks, IMO. Overall, I think they\'re average, but I am fully open to the possibility (as are you) that my opinion may change if these guys keep improving like they did last year. However, until these guys are anything more than the best of quite literally the worst, I have a hard time calling them good. Value?? Yeah, probably. I\'m happy with their value.

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go back and read and then tell you did not say that.......smitty

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BUSTED!!!!!! Backpedal, backpedal backpedal!!! This is too good. NOONE who has wanted to trade Howard has said ANYTHING about him being washed up, so this is flat out not true. It must\'ve been you, as smitty said. Got busted and trying to run. Too good. Bakpedal, backpedal, backpedal. Good go smitty!!!!!!!!

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I don\'t have to go back and read. I KNOW what I said. And NEVER did I say I wanted to just give Darren Howard away.

I said a player-for-player trade was the best scenerio. I said a 2nd probably wasn\'t enough for Howard. But I think I said I could live with a 2nd.

But if you can show me where I said differntly, then I\'ll eat my hat. ;)

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read what i said you said here billy..........that\'s all i\'m saying, nothing more, nothing less..............smitty

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and whodi, correct me if i\'m wrong, (god knows i have been) but have\'nt you brought up howard\'s age as a factor to trading him? smitty

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smitty --

I\'m getting confused.

I know you have been in favor of keeping Howard. And I know you thought we should get good value if we traded Howard.

And I\'ve always agreed with that.

I\'ve always thought we\'d be better off if we got rid of Howard. I don\'t think we NEED a 3-man DE rotation.

But, if we just had to GIVE Howard way? NO NO !!

Howard is more valuable to us this year than some guy who will never see the field.

And that\'s what I have said from day one.

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we\'re on the same page there billy.........i\'m just saying what you replied when i brought up keeping howard.......
i believe it was a thread that went something like, aaaaahhhh, can we talk about howard again, or something like that....smitty

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But guys! If we keep Howard we can\'t sign any of our draft picks and we have to cut Brooks, Bentley, Deuce, and McKenzie!!!!

Is Howard worth all those drafts picks and four starters?!?! He WILL be traded... probably for another Franchise player whose salary won\'t cause all those problems I just cited. Don\'t you guys know anything about the cap!?!?!?!?!


LOL ;)

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Pot...............kettle. :o

Nope. Trading Howard for me has been about money, plain and simple. I made a comment that we got Smith cause we knew Howard was at the end of the road. You took it as meaning he was on the decline. I explained in that same thread that what I meant was in the road here in New Orleans, end of his contract, and was gonna be wanting a lot of money. Same words, different meaning. I have never raised a stink over his age, why would I now?

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Hang on - let me get this straight...


1. Trading Howard isn\'t about money.

2. We signed Smith b/c we knew Howard was at the end of his road (and here I thought it was because the players we wanted were gone and he was the BPA).

3. Howard isn\'t really declining in terms of his play. He\'s just at the end of his road in New Orleans. Why? Money.

So which is it? Is Howard done in NO b/c of money or not?

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Until this magical contract where Howard gets paid only 2 mil this year is signed, I don\'t see that there is much argument there.

I\'m with Whodi on this:I also think this: a third stud DE is a luxury, plain and simple. A team with the 32nd ranked defense, no vetran leadership in the LB corps and one decent DT cannot afford a luxury at DE. Trade him for someone who will be a starter, bring vetran leadership to our weaker units, and not only be on the field either 2/3 of the time or out of position.

Also, I understand platooning and rotations - every team does that, it isn\'t like I don\'t know that. The problem is those rotations are NOT continuous - better players are on the field more so they can make plays. We do not need a third (high priced) DE to platoon... Willie Whitehead will do.

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Thanks Kool.

WhoDat, this is such a pain, seriously. Do you just wanna cause arguments or \"raz\" me? Did you read what you typed? Line #1 of what you said: Line #1 of what I said that you QUOTED in that very same thread: Then your question: Which I will again answer with the line that you QUOTED from my previous answer to smitty: Seriously, what is the point of this?