Howad will be a Saint.
 

first, his cap number this year is $7,803,600 to be precise. So getting him down to $4-5mil (contract+bonus) would free up 3-4mil. that is borderline enough to sign the rookies. So we just blow off the promise to McKenzie? Wait until Bentley can test free agency? Lose the ability to franchise other players?

the only reason why the rumored new contract sounded realistic is that howard gets $8mil in his pocket for two years (con+bonus). no one can think he would take significantly less than the almost $8mil franchised do they? Some players might do that to be on the Pats. But for the Saints? LOL

It must have been overlooked that he Falcons did have to cut high paid players Travis Hall, Ed Jasper, and Cory Hall to make cap room.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

I think players have finially started to realize when you get the team in a jam when it comes to having to pay you money... take advantage of it. I am starting to see this more and more over the past two years. Hmmm, do you take 7-8 million or do you sign a contract that will give you 3-4 million hmmm... lol.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

and i don\'t begrudge the players one bit over it. few ever really make it and the average career span is now under 4 years i think. it isn\'t like they are on an assembly line making a product for the owner... THEY ARE the procuct. people turn out for POS movies for one reason, the name on the marquee. if someone wants to give me twice what i have been earning to come to work for them, more power to\'em. no forces the teams to franchise these players. they know exactly what the consequences are. THAT is the necessity of staying ahead of the game as those key players roll around- get betley tied up before the bind, charles grant the year after that is coming.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Who is Howad?

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Perspective... and a serious question.

Does Deuce\'s contract expire this season?
Does McKenzie\'s contract expire this season?
Does Bentley\'s contract expire this season?

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Danno, ya never have done a Ho wad? It\'s been a few years for me but ther were some nice ones when i lived in the caribbean during my youth.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Is it something my wife would disapprove of? ;)

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Who,

None of those contracts expire this year, but aren\'t you concerned about the morale of our top players? Holdouts? Our FO being the cancer?

Bentley\'s does expire next year. This is a huge problem, since if Howard stays on at 7.8 mil (which I still maintain will require SERIOUS work to even sign our rookies at that rate), then Howrd and Bentley will be FA\'s together. We can only franchise one.

Worse, if we do resign Howard to a long term deal, we will have no franchise tag until the end of his contract. Which means eventually Bentley, McKenzie, Duece, etc. will hit FA unless they do sign long term deals. What is EVEN WORSE than that is that the \"magic\" contract Howard is going to sign to reduce his cap number EXPLODES his base salary after this year - making it even harder to sign those guys once they hit FA.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

You know I am on your side Kool, but the only way we lose our franchise tag is if Howard signs this magical deal before July 15. After that we can sign away. Of course, our rookies miss camps and such before that due to not having contracts, but hey, why do they need the practice? Missing time helped devery didn\'t it? ;) But this argument is circular, with the same things being said every time it is repeated. And the same questions being asked every time. Isn\'t it at a point where we just need to see what will happen with this situation, cause it is readily apparent some will never accept the need for Howard to be traded, which is cool, while others will look to the cap and the crucial mistakes made by teams such as San Fran and Tenn to justify the trade, which is also cool. LEt\'s just hope whatever happens, it\'s in the best interest of the team, and the best product is on the field next year. I think another 7-9 or 8-8 would kill just about all of us.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Whodi,

Thanks for the clarification on the tag. I\'m slightly less upset about this situation now.

Good analysis of the discussion though. It seems like no ground has been gained by either side. Although the WhoDat-Billy-ssmitty camp keep saying the Whodi-LK-Kool camp hasn\'t provided reason to believe there is a problem. Thus, this question: what would constitute reason for you guys to believe there is a problem?

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Well..Darren Howard takes up somewhere close to 10% of the total cap....

McKensie, McAllister and Charles Grant, in my opinion, are collectively more important than Howard alone...

We\'re not in cap trouble as of now...an We can afford to sign our rook\'s..Loomis , if anything, can manipulate the cap to his will...

But...No matter how manipulative you are with the cap..it will catch up eventually...plus...you have got to keep an emergency fund just incase we are forced into signing a Free Agent, due to injury, holdouts, whatever...

Right now..I believe the Saints can manage..but..It\'s not worth the risk...I mean...We of all people should know just how quickly things can fall apart...and without the safety net of extra cap..many teams fall...

Ultimatley..i think , for the good of the team overall, Howard will HAVE to be traded before week 6...I think that\'s the cut off point...simply because we shouldn\'t stick our necks out too far for any one person...it has never worked out for any team..and we won\'t be the exception...

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Shadow, I pretty well agree with you.

However, this idea that we can just manipulate the cap to our will isn\'t cutting it. For all the criticism the Howard must go group got with respect to not substantiating their claim, at least we pointed to real numbers like these: 7.8 mil, just over 1 mil in remaining cap space, 3.8 mil on average to sign rookies, people calling us the \"cap strapped Saints\". I just don\'t see the other view as any more (and frankly less) plausible: \"we\'ll find a way\" just isn\'t as compelling as the numbers we are facing.

Again, though, I totally agree - even if some how we \"magically\" make it work this year, I see really no reason to think it will help us in the long run.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Jeebus....I think I must\'ve said this like 5 times already but people tend to ignore it or blow it off for some reason. Or we should at least invest in a crystal ball or something. :casstet:

Howad will be a Saint.
 

I just don\'t get it.

Here is the situation that the Saints are in. Darren Howard is on the team and scheduled to make nearly $8 million in 2005. They have room to sign rookies. Bentley, McAllister, and McKenzie are under contract through the season.

What makes more sense? Wait until June and sign Howard long-term (which if done right might allow us to still trade him without taking too big a cap hit, and maybe he can be around for a couple more years), and then use the $6 million or so of freed up space in June to start talks with Deuce, Bentley, McKenzie, etc....

OR

Trade Howard now (when the VALUE we get in return is likely to be pretty bad), just to free space so we can start negotiating with Deuce, Bentley, and McKenzie in May instead of June...


I just don\'t get that. Even if the Saints and Howard don\'t come to a long-term agreement, the Saints can keep Howard for the year and deal with other players later. I just can\'t seem to see the same fire that you guys see. Howard can be signed long-term. If not, he can be traded, and we can resign important players. I just don\'t understand why that needs to be done in the next week, or else...

Howad will be a Saint.
 

When the Saints slapped the franchise tag on Howard, they had every intention of trading him right away...

Now..The draft, and a good portion of the Off Season are both over...and here we sit..still with a franchised DE..who we really don\'t need anymore..

I can see your point..why trade him out now..when we could POSSIBLY get more later?..true...However..he has been known to be somewhat of an injury prone player in the past..he just came off his best year...and He stayed healthy..How can his value increase from this point?

If we go into Pre Season...with Howard..and He gets hurt..We\'re screwed...NOONE will want to give anything at all for him..and his value will drop like a pair of panties on prom night...

The Saints should have traded him earlier...they felt the value wasn\'t there..and I really don\'t see many teams making the reach to get him now..most have moved on..

The only real hope we have now..is for some hot shot DE to get injured early in the Season, or in Pre Season...and that\'s not a good position to be on..

We get rid of him..even if we get shanked..and we kill 5 birds with one stone.

[Edited on 26/4/2005 by shadowdrinker]

Howad will be a Saint.
 

What you have outlined would seem to make a Simon for Howard trade a real winner for the Saints. Simon\'s tender is only $5.134 million. The Saints could certainly use a $2.6 plus million increase in their cap right now. The Eagles would have no problem adding the $2.6 million to their cap. It seems like a winner of a deal for the Saints. Am I missing something?

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Doesn\'t seem like it.... and I\'m not saying that I am opposed to a Howard/Simon trade. I\'m simply attacking the logic that says that if we don\'t trade Howard we\'re screwed. I disagree.

The problem with the Howard for Simon idea is that it\'s fiction. The only ones considering it are the people on this board, as far as I know. So the point is really moot.


A question that ressonates in reality is whether or not we can keep Howard at all. Shadow misunderstood my point. It\'s not that we can trade Howard later. It\'s that we DO NOT HAVE to trade Howard at all if there isn\'t GOOD VALUE for the guy. We are able to sign him and keep him.

And I don\'t buy the \"what if he gets hurt\" argument. Every player in the NFL plays under that same \"what if.\"

There are two potential benefits to trading Howard:

1. A reduction in our cap position that would free up space to sign other players (or current players to long-term deals).

2. The possibility of getting a good starter at a need position in return.


All I am suggesting is that trading Howard ONLY to reduce our cap position is dumb, IMO, b/c we don\'t HAVE TO. If you want to give me good value for Howard, fine, make the trade. Otherwise, don\'t go dumping Howard for a 2nd round pick in 2006 b/c he might get hurt and we could start to renegotiate with Bentley RIGHT NOW instead of in JUNE. That just doesn\'t make sense to me.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Actually, I checked out the message board on the Eagles\' website, and their fans are discussing the possibilities of a Howard/Simon trade as well. It seems to be a trade that has some resonance with the fans of both teams, but the two respective FOs don\'t seem to have the same enthusiasm for it.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

This is not true. It will take about 3.8 mil to sign our rookies. Our current cap space is just over 1 mil. Without contracts, they will not be in camp.

I like a Howard for Simon trade. It helps both teams - how often does that happen.

Howad will be a Saint.
 

I would want you on my team if I was in charge of the Saints...know why?...Patience...you display a steady trigger finger...and that is admirable...

The ONLY problem I have in the whole thing is the franchise tag...I mean..the only reason they did that was to ensure a quality trade...and they failed on thier part to see it through...

I\'m going to take your approach..for now...and put this on the back burner in my mind...I just hope that it doesn\'t come back to haunt us later...

I like Howard...and i know for a fact he\'s a top 10 DE at least...We could always use a guy like that...I just wonder why other teams felt like they didn\'t?

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by shadowdrinker]

Howad will be a Saint.
 

Thanks Shadow... but you can be MY wingman! :)