Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days

jeanpierre · 05-18-2018, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

It was a reach based upon your personal board, but where was he on the Saints' draft board? For all we know he was sitting right there at the top and they felt he had fallen into their lap. I'll bet you that all 32 teams have draft boards that differ dramatically in different areas based upon things those team's personnel saw that others didn't ... be them correct or not. And I'll also wager they different in the same way from those created by outside "experts" and fans.

I understand you are extremely knowledgeable in the area of potential NFL rookies, but your idea of a reach may not jive with everyone's. While there can definitely be "WTF's" uttered in certain circles there are also most likely a few "craps" and "dammits" that were uttered by other frustrated that he didn't fall to them.

Guido, it's really not about my personal board. I'll gladly subdue my ego to get past that point to have an on-point discussion...

Those that know me personally know I won't hesitate to fall on my sword so that all may have the truth...

The NFL rating service even had him at a R7-FA grade as well which NFL.com basically bases their information off of...

But, whether you want to disagree or not with those far more recognized folks; this is a player who's only played a year and a half as an offensive lineman, and not with stand-out performances...

Look Payton is a gambler and a showman and has the ego in-tow to boot and I love the Saints as much as anyone and love that he's like that on game day...

Even when he's calling double reverses...

But when it comes to building a team, just wish he and Mickey would defer to Ireland's "calm and disciplined influence" and actually let it have the most weight...

Didn't expect the same haul we had last year, but was hoping for the same approach...

I'm not so proudful that I want Davenport and/or Leonard to bust...

I want them to be great Saints and I've checked much of my pessimism and criticism a great deal on their outlooks in my posts in hopeful anticipation that I'm wrong about their prospects in the Fall...

Either way that works out, when it comes to the Draft, Payton reaches - period. And his moves fail far more often than not and is the single biggest handicap to this team's success...

AsylumGuido · 05-18-2018, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Guido, it's really not about my personal board. I'll gladly subdue my ego to get past that point to have an on-point discussion...

Those that know me personally know I won't hesitate to fall on my sword so that all may have the truth...

The NFL rating service even had him at a R7-FA grade as well which NFL.com basically bases their information off of...

But, whether you want to disagree or not with those far more recognized folks; this is a player who's only played a year and a half as an offensive lineman, and not with stand-out performances...

Look Payton is a gambler and a showman and has the ego in-tow to boot and I love the Saints as much as anyone and love that he's like that on game day...

Even when he's calling double reverses...

But when it comes to building a team, just wish he and Mickey would defer to Ireland's "calm and disciplined influence" and actually let it have the most weight...

Didn't expect the same haul we had last year, but was hoping for the same approach...

I'm not so proudful that I want Davenport and/or Leonard to bust...

I want them to be great Saints and I've checked much of my pessimism and criticism a great deal on their outlooks in my posts in hopeful anticipation that I'm wrong about their prospects in the Fall...

Either way that works out, when it comes to the Draft, Payton reaches - period. And his moves fail far more often than not and is the single biggest handicap to this team's success...

Of course, I hope you are wrong in your fears, but how do you know that it wasn't Ireland that gave the "go ahead" in this case? Perhaps they all saw something there that the NFL rating service doesn't take into consideration. Perhaps they see him less as a long term project and more as a solid contributor for the 53 man roster in 2018 that can quickly advance to allowing for the eventual exit of the oft injured Armstead via a move of Ramczyk to LT? Payton himself mentioned the use of variables in the evaluation process that others are not currently using. And how much does Strief's ready availability factor into the decision, as well? That too can quicken any process and shorten the curve.

Let's see wait and see how the perceived "reach" turns out "post Ireland".

ChrisXVI · 05-18-2018, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Rugs, we didn't have to reach for anyone, Payton and the Mickster just went back to their old draft ways after being disciplined last year and having a great draft...

It's the reaching and poor draft management that has limited the Saints to one Superbowl in the Brees era...

We can’t heap praise on Jeff Ireland when a draft goes well and then act like it’s all Payton and Loomis’s fault when it doesn’t turn out how one might expect.

AsylumGuido · 05-18-2018, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI

We can’t heap praise on Jeff Ireland when a draft goes well and then act like it’s all Payton and Loomis’s fault when it doesn’t turn out how one might expect.

Yup. That's my point. Let's wait and see. In Ireland I trust ... and not only because I'm Irish.

jeanpierre · 05-18-2018, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI

We can’t heap praise on Jeff Ireland when a draft goes well and then act like it’s all Payton and Loomis’s fault when it doesn’t turn out how one might expect.

Yes we can...Ireland was brought here for that reason and should be trusted with the process...

Originally Posted by K Major

After the last two successful Saints drafts ... kind of hard for me to argue that these guys don't know what they are doing.

Trust the process.

I'm not sold on the completeness of the 2016 draft - DT Sheldon Rankins (C-), WR @Can'tGuardMike A+, S Vonn Bell (D) two picks to acquire, DT David Onyemata (C-) two picks to acquire, RB Daniel Lasco (D) and UDFA CB Ken Crawley (A-)...

A solid draft nonetheless, and this is the third year for these guys; but first round pick Rankins has been more SedEllis 2.0 than even Akiem Hicks; if not for Thomas, this draft really stings, especially when we used four picks to get Vonn Bell and David Onyemata...

And most folks here wanted to replace Crawley after his rookie season...

Originally Posted by Euphoria

With your reasoning... Kamara was a reach as well. Look how that turned out so far.

That would be correct and just to speak blaspheme, RB Kareem Hunt was there in the third round without taking oft-injured Anzalone...

Originally Posted by Euphoria

I am a believer that you can't grade your draft until 3-4 years after the draft. You don't know how they will turn out/develop or how they will contribute that early usually.

Overall, yes, you have to wait it out; but a player can still be a reach at the time of draft selection which is the point I'm illustrating...

Originally Posted by Euphoria

Even second guessing these guys after the past couple of years is a bit much they have earned a lot of clout.

And the years 2015 BI? Think we've all been fans longer than that that we should remember all of it, good and bad...

Originally Posted by Euphoria

You also don't take chances... if you believe this is your guy then you take him.

If we're looking at a franchise QB, I'd agree; but are we now to forget the lessons of bad drafts and free agency moves prior to when Ireland got here?

It takes CBs, DEs, OGs, DTs, OTs, LBs, Ks, TEs, Cs, WRs, RBs, and you can't get all the starters and depth using two picks on one guy...

Staying patient as we did in 2017 and letting the draft come to us, allow the other kids to reach and make mistakes...

Good, healthy debate, my Bros, finished HB Steak and Peas - Think I'll have a Yuengling - Salud!!!

K Major · 05-18-2018, 04:19 PM

After the last two successful Saints drafts ... kind of hard for me to argue that these guys don't know what they are doing.

Trust the process.

Mr.Riaton · 05-18-2018, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

After the last two successful Saints drafts ... kind of hard for me to argue that these guys don't know what they are doing.

Trust the process.

I agree. Not to say they won't get it wrong from time to time,but theyve been doing well.

Mr.Riaton · 05-18-2018, 04:38 PM

BTW...i don't think anybody can call this a reach until we see how he fares out. I'm still amazed that people continue to grade players prematurely. If Alvin Kamara would've been drafted in the first round,there would have been a lot of WTF going around.That goes for any playerr not taken in the first round that turned out to be a star.
For the record,I don't think this guy will be a star, but he just might be worth the fourth round pick

Rugby Saint II · 05-18-2018, 05:28 PM

The O-line is the last stop for big men. Switching positions is difficult and it has to be damn near impossible to learn the nuances going from defense to offense in a short time. I'll bet Ireland knows talent and that our coaches can coach him up.

saintfan · 05-18-2018, 06:08 PM

I think this guy is going to prove to be well worth a round 4, but time will tell.

05-18-2018, 03:13 PM	#1
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days Originally Posted by AsylumGuido It was a reach based upon your personal board, but where was he on the Saints' draft board? For all we know he was sitting right there at the top and they felt he had fallen into their lap. I'll bet you that all 32 teams have draft boards that differ dramatically in different areas based upon things those team's personnel saw that others didn't ... be them correct or not. And I'll also wager they different in the same way from those created by outside "experts" and fans. I understand you are extremely knowledgeable in the area of potential NFL rookies, but your idea of a reach may not jive with everyone's. While there can definitely be "WTF's" uttered in certain circles there are also most likely a few "craps" and "dammits" that were uttered by other frustrated that he didn't fall to them. Guido, it's really not about my personal board. I'll gladly subdue my ego to get past that point to have an on-point discussion... Those that know me personally know I won't hesitate to fall on my sword so that all may have the truth... The NFL rating service even had him at a R7-FA grade as well which NFL.com basically bases their information off of... But, whether you want to disagree or not with those far more recognized folks; this is a player who's only played a year and a half as an offensive lineman, and not with stand-out performances... Look Payton is a gambler and a showman and has the ego in-tow to boot and I love the Saints as much as anyone and love that he's like that on game day... Even when he's calling double reverses... But when it comes to building a team, just wish he and Mickey would defer to Ireland's "calm and disciplined influence" and actually let it have the most weight... Didn't expect the same haul we had last year, but was hoping for the same approach... I'm not so proudful that I want Davenport and/or Leonard to bust... I want them to be great Saints and I've checked much of my pessimism and criticism a great deal on their outlooks in my posts in hopeful anticipation that I'm wrong about their prospects in the Fall... Either way that works out, when it comes to the Draft, Payton reaches - period. And his moves fail far more often than not and is the single biggest handicap to this team's success... Barry from MS likes this.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

05-18-2018, 04:01 PM	#2
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,472	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days Originally Posted by jeanpierre Guido, it's really not about my personal board. I'll gladly subdue my ego to get past that point to have an on-point discussion... Those that know me personally know I won't hesitate to fall on my sword so that all may have the truth... The NFL rating service even had him at a R7-FA grade as well which NFL.com basically bases their information off of... But, whether you want to disagree or not with those far more recognized folks; this is a player who's only played a year and a half as an offensive lineman, and not with stand-out performances... Look Payton is a gambler and a showman and has the ego in-tow to boot and I love the Saints as much as anyone and love that he's like that on game day... Even when he's calling double reverses... But when it comes to building a team, just wish he and Mickey would defer to Ireland's "calm and disciplined influence" and actually let it have the most weight... Didn't expect the same haul we had last year, but was hoping for the same approach... I'm not so proudful that I want Davenport and/or Leonard to bust... I want them to be great Saints and I've checked much of my pessimism and criticism a great deal on their outlooks in my posts in hopeful anticipation that I'm wrong about their prospects in the Fall... Either way that works out, when it comes to the Draft, Payton reaches - period. And his moves fail far more often than not and is the single biggest handicap to this team's success... Of course, I hope you are wrong in your fears, but how do you know that it wasn't Ireland that gave the "go ahead" in this case? Perhaps they all saw something there that the NFL rating service doesn't take into consideration. Perhaps they see him less as a long term project and more as a solid contributor for the 53 man roster in 2018 that can quickly advance to allowing for the eventual exit of the oft injured Armstead via a move of Ramczyk to LT? Payton himself mentioned the use of variables in the evaluation process that others are not currently using. And how much does Strief's ready availability factor into the decision, as well? That too can quicken any process and shorten the curve. Let's see wait and see how the perceived "reach" turns out "post Ireland".
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

05-18-2018, 03:51 PM	#3
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days Originally Posted by jeanpierre Rugs, we didn't have to reach for anyone, Payton and the Mickster just went back to their old draft ways after being disciplined last year and having a great draft... It's the reaching and poor draft management that has limited the Saints to one Superbowl in the Brees era... We can’t heap praise on Jeff Ireland when a draft goes well and then act like it’s all Payton and Loomis’s fault when it doesn’t turn out how one might expect.

05-18-2018, 04:02 PM	#4
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,472	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days Originally Posted by ChrisXVI We can’t heap praise on Jeff Ireland when a draft goes well and then act like it’s all Payton and Loomis’s fault when it doesn’t turn out how one might expect. Yup. That's my point. Let's wait and see. In Ireland I trust ... and not only because I'm Irish. Rugby Saint II likes this.

05-18-2018, 07:48 PM	#5
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days Originally Posted by ChrisXVI We can’t heap praise on Jeff Ireland when a draft goes well and then act like it’s all Payton and Loomis’s fault when it doesn’t turn out how one might expect. Yes we can...Ireland was brought here for that reason and should be trusted with the process... Originally Posted by K Major After the last two successful Saints drafts ... kind of hard for me to argue that these guys don't know what they are doing. Trust the process. I'm not sold on the completeness of the 2016 draft - DT Sheldon Rankins (C-), WR @Can'tGuardMike A+, S Vonn Bell (D) two picks to acquire, DT David Onyemata (C-) two picks to acquire, RB Daniel Lasco (D) and UDFA CB Ken Crawley (A-)... A solid draft nonetheless, and this is the third year for these guys; but first round pick Rankins has been more SedEllis 2.0 than even Akiem Hicks; if not for Thomas, this draft really stings, especially when we used four picks to get Vonn Bell and David Onyemata... And most folks here wanted to replace Crawley after his rookie season... Originally Posted by Euphoria With your reasoning... Kamara was a reach as well. Look how that turned out so far. That would be correct and just to speak blaspheme, RB Kareem Hunt was there in the third round without taking oft-injured Anzalone... Originally Posted by Euphoria I am a believer that you can't grade your draft until 3-4 years after the draft. You don't know how they will turn out/develop or how they will contribute that early usually. Overall, yes, you have to wait it out; but a player can still be a reach at the time of draft selection which is the point I'm illustrating... Originally Posted by Euphoria Even second guessing these guys after the past couple of years is a bit much they have earned a lot of clout. And the years 2015 BI? Think we've all been fans longer than that that we should remember all of it, good and bad... Originally Posted by Euphoria You also don't take chances... if you believe this is your guy then you take him. If we're looking at a franchise QB, I'd agree; but are we now to forget the lessons of bad drafts and free agency moves prior to when Ireland got here? It takes CBs, DEs, OGs, DTs, OTs, LBs, Ks, TEs, Cs, WRs, RBs, and you can't get all the starters and depth using two picks on one guy... Staying patient as we did in 2017 and letting the draft come to us, allow the other kids to reach and make mistakes... Good, healthy debate, my Bros, finished HB Steak and Peas - Think I'll have a Yuengling - Salud!!!
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way... Last edited by jeanpierre; 05-18-2018 at 08:15 PM..

05-18-2018, 04:19 PM	#6
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,738 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days After the last two successful Saints drafts ... kind of hard for me to argue that these guys don't know what they are doing. Trust the process. Mr.Riaton likes this.

05-18-2018, 04:30 PM	#7
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,287	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days Originally Posted by K Major After the last two successful Saints drafts ... kind of hard for me to argue that these guys don't know what they are doing. Trust the process. I agree. Not to say they won't get it wrong from time to time,but theyve been doing well. AsylumGuido likes this.

05-18-2018, 04:38 PM	#8
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,287	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days BTW...i don't think anybody can call this a reach until we see how he fares out. I'm still amazed that people continue to grade players prematurely. If Alvin Kamara would've been drafted in the first round,there would have been a lot of WTF going around.That goes for any playerr not taken in the first round that turned out to be a star. For the record,I don't think this guy will be a star, but he just might be worth the fourth round pick AsylumGuido likes this.

05-18-2018, 05:28 PM	#9
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,117	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days The O-line is the last stop for big men. Switching positions is difficult and it has to be damn near impossible to learn the nuances going from defense to offense in a short time. I'll bet Ireland knows talent and that our coaches can coach him up.

05-18-2018, 06:08 PM	#10
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Rookie tackle Rick Leonard's familiarity with Saints offensive line dates back to Florida State days I think this guy is going to prove to be well worth a round 4, but time will tell.

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