Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem?

GumboBC · 04-28-2005, 12:55 PM

Ever since Rick Venturi installed HIS defense, it seems no matter what players we have, we still can't stop the run or the pass.

We've had some pretty good playes on the defense. Norman Hand, Grady Jackson, Charles Grant, Darren Howard ??

But, I have constantly seen players out of position and looking very confused as to where they are supposed to be!

Hey, guys ... I know we haven't had the most talent in the world on defense ... but don't you guys think our defense should have been much better?

Do you think Ventui's shemes has been too complicated and maybe that's been a big part of the problem? Or maybe it's just a poorly designed sheme.

I've wrestled with this idea before ... Is it the players or the scheme?

During the last 4-games, I saw a change in defense scheme and all of a sudden players seemed to be in postion to make a play?

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]

4saintspirit · 04-28-2005, 01:06 PM

I\'d say 50-50. Our talent has not been good enough to be a top notch defense but our scheme has not been built around the talent we do have --- A few years back we had some talent (a great pass rush) but when the QB had time he picked apart our db\'s. The scheme was okay -- pressure the QB to hide our deficiencies in the backfield With that in mind the last couple of years our scheme has not done this -- it plays a conservative defense thinking the scheme will offset our talent deficiencies -- I think had we played more agressive with our front line and blitz packages our defense would actually have looked better -

Danno · 04-28-2005, 01:15 PM

90% Scheme
10% players.
And everyone knows it. Thats why Venturi was replaced (sort of).

baronm · 04-28-2005, 01:35 PM

90% Scheme
10% players.
And everyone knows it. Thats why Venturi was replaced (sort of).

You know I\'ve been thinking this same thing gumbo--good question...but I think these numbers are close-I\'m going to go 75-25 though..

I think venturi is more a problem than the players-though injuries have riddled our ranks.

I\'m not sure if they are too complicated or just plain not very good though..

good question.

GumboBC · 04-28-2005, 01:51 PM

To be honest, I really don\'t know which is a bigger problem. Talent or scheme .. that is the question?

Most of the time - I believe it\'s almost always talent that is the problem. Not coahing. But Venturi\'s scheme has me wondering?!

3 guys who I believe know a little bit about defense are Tony Dungy, Marvin Lewis, and Ray Rhodes.

Tony Dungy - Colts Defense: 29th
Ray Rhodes - Seattle Defense: 26th
Marvin Lewis - Bengals Defense: 19th

Not that those guys have anything to do with the Saints\' defense, but I think it shows that great coaching can\'t overcome a lack of talent.

The question is .. how good should the talent we have be? What kind of results should we be getting with the defensive talent we have?

Hmmmmmmm .....

ScottyRo · 04-28-2005, 01:54 PM

both are equally at fault.

If the players were good enough, they could overcome the scheme\'s weaknesses.

If the scheme was good enough, it could hide the players\' faults.

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by ScottyRo]

baronm · 04-28-2005, 02:14 PM

both are equally at fault.

If the players were good enough, they could overcome the scheme\'s weaknesses.

If the scheme was good enough, it could hide the players\' faults.

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by ScottyRo]

Agreed-however a really good coordinator will draft players who fit his s heme or change the scheme to fit the players..sometimes I think we are tying to fit square pegs into round holes.

JKool · 04-28-2005, 03:54 PM

I say both, but I don\'t think this kind of question is a very clear question.

Scheme versus Players - there is no answer.

Good shemes hide bad players, make mediocre players better, make great players great.

Good players make some schemes possible, bad players don\'t. Good players make good schemes great.

Great scheme + great players = great defense
Bad scheme + bad players = bad defense
Great scheme + bad players = ?
Bad scheme + great players = ?

To make matters worse goodness and badness of schemes and players are on a continuum. Thus, there aren\'t merely four cases (as I\'ve noted above) there are an infinite number of cases.

I just don\'t see how you can answer this question without details. In our case, I see some good players and some bad schemeing. A scheme that allows Ruff to be in coverage on Alge Crumpler - is that a bad scheme or merely a bad play call.

This question isn\'t as simple as it first seems, and I suspect there is actually no way to answer it without a veridical assessment of the players and a play book (with the details of the scheme).

GumboBC · 04-28-2005, 03:59 PM

JKool --

You really think things out before you answer. And I appreciate the effort.

Basically, I agree with you. Which is why I said \" I really didn\'t know what the bigger problem was\". (scheme or talent)

That\'s the million-dollar question in my mind.

I do think BOTH are part of the problem. But that wasn\'t the question.

The question was: Which is the bigger problem?

Is it 50/50? 70/30? 80/20?

Hard to say. For me, it\'s impossible to say.

But, this is an opinion board. And in my opinion .. It\'s about 60/40. With \"scheme\" being 60%.

BrooksMustGo · 04-28-2005, 04:04 PM

Great scheme + great players = great defense
Bad scheme + bad players = bad defense
Great scheme + bad players = ?
Bad scheme + great players = ?

Gregor Mendel\'s theory of defense?

04-28-2005, 12:55 PM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? Ever since Rick Venturi installed HIS defense, it seems no matter what players we have, we still can't stop the run or the pass. We've had some pretty good playes on the defense. Norman Hand, Grady Jackson, Charles Grant, Darren Howard ?? But, I have constantly seen players out of position and looking very confused as to where they are supposed to be! Hey, guys ... I know we haven't had the most talent in the world on defense ... but don't you guys think our defense should have been much better? Do you think Ventui's shemes has been too complicated and maybe that's been a big part of the problem? Or maybe it's just a poorly designed sheme. I've wrestled with this idea before ... Is it the players or the scheme? During the last 4-games, I saw a change in defense scheme and all of a sudden players seemed to be in postion to make a play? [Edited on 28/4/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

04-28-2005, 01:06 PM	#2
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? I\'d say 50-50. Our talent has not been good enough to be a top notch defense but our scheme has not been built around the talent we do have --- A few years back we had some talent (a great pass rush) but when the QB had time he picked apart our db\'s. The scheme was okay -- pressure the QB to hide our deficiencies in the backfield With that in mind the last couple of years our scheme has not done this -- it plays a conservative defense thinking the scheme will offset our talent deficiencies -- I think had we played more agressive with our front line and blitz packages our defense would actually have looked better -
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"

04-28-2005, 01:15 PM	#3
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,713	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? 90% Scheme 10% players. And everyone knows it. Thats why Venturi was replaced (sort of).

04-28-2005, 01:35 PM	#4
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? 90% Scheme 10% players. And everyone knows it. Thats why Venturi was replaced (sort of). You know I\'ve been thinking this same thing gumbo--good question...but I think these numbers are close-I\'m going to go 75-25 though.. I think venturi is more a problem than the players-though injuries have riddled our ranks. I\'m not sure if they are too complicated or just plain not very good though.. good question.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

04-28-2005, 01:51 PM	#5
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? To be honest, I really don\'t know which is a bigger problem. Talent or scheme .. that is the question? Most of the time - I believe it\'s almost always talent that is the problem. Not coahing. But Venturi\'s scheme has me wondering?! 3 guys who I believe know a little bit about defense are Tony Dungy, Marvin Lewis, and Ray Rhodes. Tony Dungy - Colts Defense: 29th Ray Rhodes - Seattle Defense: 26th Marvin Lewis - Bengals Defense: 19th Not that those guys have anything to do with the Saints\' defense, but I think it shows that great coaching can\'t overcome a lack of talent. The question is .. how good should the talent we have be? What kind of results should we be getting with the defensive talent we have? Hmmmmmmm .....
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

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04-28-2005, 01:54 PM	#6
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? both are equally at fault. If the players were good enough, they could overcome the scheme\'s weaknesses. If the scheme was good enough, it could hide the players\' faults. [Edited on 28/4/2005 by ScottyRo]

04-28-2005, 02:14 PM	#7
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? both are equally at fault. If the players were good enough, they could overcome the scheme\'s weaknesses. If the scheme was good enough, it could hide the players\' faults. [Edited on 28/4/2005 by ScottyRo] Agreed-however a really good coordinator will draft players who fit his s heme or change the scheme to fit the players..sometimes I think we are tying to fit square pegs into round holes.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

04-28-2005, 03:54 PM	#8
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? I say both, but I don\'t think this kind of question is a very clear question. Scheme versus Players - there is no answer. Good shemes hide bad players, make mediocre players better, make great players great. Good players make some schemes possible, bad players don\'t. Good players make good schemes great. Great scheme + great players = great defense Bad scheme + bad players = bad defense Great scheme + bad players = ? Bad scheme + great players = ? To make matters worse goodness and badness of schemes and players are on a continuum. Thus, there aren\'t merely four cases (as I\'ve noted above) there are an infinite number of cases. I just don\'t see how you can answer this question without details. In our case, I see some good players and some bad schemeing. A scheme that allows Ruff to be in coverage on Alge Crumpler - is that a bad scheme or merely a bad play call. This question isn\'t as simple as it first seems, and I suspect there is actually no way to answer it without a veridical assessment of the players and a play book (with the details of the scheme).
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

04-28-2005, 03:59 PM	#9
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? JKool -- You really think things out before you answer. And I appreciate the effort. Basically, I agree with you. Which is why I said \" I really didn\'t know what the bigger problem was\". (scheme or talent) That\'s the million-dollar question in my mind. I do think BOTH are part of the problem. But that wasn\'t the question. The question was: Which is the bigger problem? Is it 50/50? 70/30? 80/20? Hard to say. For me, it\'s impossible to say. But, this is an opinion board. And in my opinion .. It\'s about 60/40. With \"scheme\" being 60%.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

04-28-2005, 04:04 PM	#10
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Defense - Scheme or talent been the problem? Great scheme + great players = great defense Bad scheme + bad players = bad defense Great scheme + bad players = ? Bad scheme + great players = ? Gregor Mendel\'s theory of defense?