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-   -   The Advocate: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected (https://blackandgold.com/saints/89988-analysis-saints-cuts-more-about-strength-roster-than-players-selected.html)

jeanpierre 09-01-2018 10:18 PM
Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 

jeanpierre 09-01-2018 10:21 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
BY NICK UNDERHILL | NUNDERHILL@THEADVOCATE.COM SEP 1, 2018 - 6:31 PM

It can be a good sign when a team cuts good players and doesn’t have room for all of its draft picks.

Sometimes those moves create some shock. Running back Jonathan Williams getting released by the Saints on Saturday was a legitimate “whoa” moment, but more so because of what New Orleans doesn't have at the position than the talent lost in the transaction. And seeing fourth-round tackle Rick Leonard, fifth-round cornerback Natrell Jamerson and sixth-round safety Kamrin Moore let go was a bit of a surprise, just because people are conditioned to expect draft picks to make the team.

Now, it isn't all good when rookies get cut. Having a fourth-round pick fail to make the roster isn’t the best outcome. Leonard, a converted defensive end with minimal experience on the other side of the ball, was billed as a project, and while he demonstrated the physical ability to play the position, he struggled with motivation and applying coaching points.

This isn’t necessarily the end for him. He could clear waivers and continue to develop on the practice squad, but it says something that the team is willing to risk losing him.

As far as anyone else who didn’t make the team, it’s not a big deal. The headlines will read “three draft picks fail to make the roster.” But put it in context. These moves are about the strength of the roster more than the players selected.

Look at the profile of the players selected during the final day of the draft. Jamerson, Moore and running back Boston Scott all had something in common: They could perform on special teams. That tells you right away these guys needed to do more than one thing to crack the roster. If not, see ya. That’s how undrafted safety J.T. Gray ended up making the team over Moore and Jamerson (at least for now).

Moore and Jamerson looked promising at times. Moore made some plays on special teams once he returned from a hamstring injury, and secondary coach Aaron Glenn talked up Jamerson’s play at cornerback earlier in the camp.

Now, think back to two years ago when Sterling Moore and B.W. Webb started games at cornerback. The fact that a position coach wasn’t able to keep a player he thought was playing well is a testament to the strength of this roster.

The Williams cut was the most surprising move of the day. It felt like he gained momentum at the position early in the preseason and maintained it coming into this week. He rushed 31 times for 124 yards with a pair of touchdowns, averaging a respectable 4 yards per carry. But the team must prefer Scott, who averaged 4.8 yards per carry, even though he was often playing lower in the order behind a lesser offensive line.

Scott also has the added benefit of being a better receiving back and can help out in the return game.

It wouldn’t be a surprise if New Orleans looks outside of the building for additional help — coach Sean Payton has alluded to the possibility several times — and running back could be one of the spots the Saints addresses. If not, it looks like Alvin Kamara and Scott will carry the load at running back, with fullbacks Trey Edmunds and Zach Line helping out where they can until Mark Ingram returns from a four-game suspension.

But certainly, the absence of those three rookies on the initial roster does not indicate that something has gone awry with the drafting process.

New Orleans just had what might end up being one of the best draft classes in history a year ago, and another very solid draft before that. This class should be judged by what defensive end Marcus Davenport, wide receiver Tre’Quan Smith, Scott and offensive lineman Will Clapp do. Maybe even some of the other three end up on the practice squad and climb back on the roster in due time.

Say what you want about the missed risk on Leonard, but overall, these cuts are another sign of success. Carrying late-round picks because there is no one around to beat them out every year is when things are going wrong.

SmashMouth 09-01-2018 10:35 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Some of those will be PS candidates...

The Dude 09-01-2018 11:51 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmashMouth (Post 810724)
Some of those will be PS candidates...
But if the cuts were more about the strength of our roster and the talent they were up against and less about their ability wouldn’t you think they would be picked up by someone else?

MarchingOn 09-02-2018 03:56 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
BS. These cuts show this DRAFT (outside of perhaps the 1st and 3rd pick) was a disaster.

Hope whoever ran/approved it catches hell like after the 2014 draft disaster (don't think we have anyone still left on the roster from '14).

We passed on these players in order to take and cut our picks:

- 4th: DT and former top 10 player Maurice Hurst.

- 5th DE Fitts, CB Nicherson, QBs White and Falk

- 5th and 6th: WR St. Brown, OT Senat

Bad draft unless we hit on our 1st. Pathethic.

And, speaking of pathethic (our defense agains the run), I still wish we'd taken NT Phillips over our good WR in the 3rd. Someone should be removed from draft-making decisions.

dizzle88 09-02-2018 04:15 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
This draft smells of Sean Payton, moving up, taking players that are projects.

This certainly does not feel like a Jeff Ireland draft that have been so successful the past 2 years.

ScottF 09-02-2018 04:31 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
At least we got a 7th back for Lawrence.
Gotta love the Browns

frydaddy 09-02-2018 04:42 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottF (Post 810796)
At least we got a 7th back for Lawrence.
Gotta love the Browns
Lol That surprised the hell out of me, until I saw it was the browns. I thought there's no way someone would give up a pick for an unproven and formerly undrafted player. But then there's the browns. God bless em.

The Dude 09-02-2018 10:34 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarchingOn (Post 810785)
BS. These cuts show this DRAFT (outside of perhaps the 1st and 3rd pick) was a disaster.

Hope whoever ran/approved it catches hell like after the 2014 draft disaster (don't think we have anyone still left on the roster from '14).

We passed on these players in order to take and cut our picks:

- 4th: DT and former top 10 player Maurice Hurst.

- 5th DE Fitts, CB Nicherson, QBs White and Falk

- 5th and 6th: WR St. Brown, OT Senat

Bad draft unless we hit on our 1st. Pathethic.

And, speaking of pathethic (our defense agains the run), I still wish we'd taken NT Phillips over our good WR in the 3rd. Someone should be removed from draft-making decisions.
The article is nothing more than the media trying to sell us on the idea that it wasn’t a bad draft class. The Saints are a product and sports media is nothing more than an industry specific commercial. Winning alone will sell season tickets and merch for now, but they have to keep the ticket sales coming in when a team is 2-14.
Perfect example is how Bobby and Kristain flip flopped from calling Bridgewater a bust to comparing him to Russel Wilson and loving the idea the very next day.

I seriously put more stock in some of the crap that Guido posts than I do in anything put out by the sports media.
Davenport is going to be worth the price and I have a feeling he will contribute more to stopping the run than most people think

Cruize 09-03-2018 04:59 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Maulet and Hardee simply outplayed Jamerson. Moore was a long shot and a wasted pick. Davenport is legit. Smith is legit. Scott is legit. Clapp outplayed some veterans and must be legit. Leonard was a project and hopefully will make the 53 next year. Solid draft.

nola_swammi 09-03-2018 06:00 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruize (Post 810826)
Maulet and Hardee simply outplayed Jamerson. Moore was a long shot and a wasted pick. Davenport is legit. Smith is legit. Scott is legit. Clapp outplayed some veterans and must be legit. Leonard was a project and hopefully will make the 53 next year. Solid draft.
J.T. Gray did not out play Jamerson nor did he outplay him in S.T. That was just a mistake or personal choice to cut Jamerson. It also could be a ploy to be able to convince more undrafted free agents to consider signing here. I don't know the real reason but Jamerson should've made the 53. Luckily, this decision don't harm us in the long run with the depth we do have

AsylumGuido 09-03-2018 08:39 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nola_swammi (Post 810827)
J.T. Gray did not out play Jamerson nor did he outplay him in S.T. That was just a mistake or personal choice to cut Jamerson. It also could be a ploy to be able to convince more undrafted free agents to consider signing here. I don't know the real reason but Jamerson should've made the 53. Luckily, this decision don't harm us in the long run with the depth we do have
We can have no idea of why any given player doesn't make the cut. It could be attitude or classroom related. Either of which would be completely unknown to the fan base and even media.

RailBoss 09-03-2018 09:21 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
True but it most likely has to do with the needs at positions. What you say is also a major factor we don't get to see behind the scenes.

spkb25 09-03-2018 10:23 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dude (Post 810726)
But if the cuts were more about the strength of our roster and the talent they were up against and less about their ability wouldn’t you think they would be picked up by someone else?
All were except for good ol RL waste of pick, waste of PS spot

spkb25 09-03-2018 10:24 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 810830)
We can have no idea of why any given player doesn't make the cut. It could be attitude or classroom related. Either of which would be completely unknown to the fan base and even media.
Dude, your points lose credibility as you defended the Leonard selection and told people they didn't know what they were talking about. Eat that crow. Yummy, delicious and nutritious

spkb25 09-03-2018 10:25 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nola_swammi (Post 810827)
J.T. Gray did not out play Jamerson nor did he outplay him in S.T. That was just a mistake or personal choice to cut Jamerson. It also could be a ploy to be able to convince more undrafted free agents to consider signing here. I don't know the real reason but Jamerson should've made the 53. Luckily, this decision don't harm us in the long run with the depth we do have
Jamerson didn't last long on the market, did he. Kid did good for us. Mistake

AsylumGuido 09-03-2018 10:45 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810834)
Dude, your points lose credibility as you defended the Leonard selection and told people they didn't know what they were talking about. Eat that crow. Yummy, delicious and nutritious
Leonard is still a Saint. He may still develop into solid player. The majority of ALL draft picks can be deemed "wasted" as most do not make the original 53 man roster. Only time will tell.

The Dude 09-03-2018 11:53 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810833)
All were except for good ol RL waste of pick, waste of PS spot
Yea I saw that later on that day after I posted. Does make me feel a little better.

spkb25 09-03-2018 12:57 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 810836)
Leonard is still a Saint. He may still develop into solid player. The majority of ALL draft picks can be deemed "wasted" as most do not make the original 53 man roster. Only time will tell.
Yes they cannot admit their mistake just yet. Landon Turner was undrafted and spent a few seasons making the practice squad too, what's your point? The rest were gobbled up by other teams...not good ol Rick. You came on here, as you always do, telling people with legit concerns (that the draft pick made no sense because he was considered 7th round or not drafted) that they didn't know what they're talking about. It is near the same thing you say on damn near every post. People are here to espouse their opinions on the team. To discuss the decisions by the team. Guess what, news for you, we we're all right that his pick in that round was undeserved.

Now on to the next wait and see, how long until Sed Ellis brother, shankins, is with the team.

And btw just because we critize doesn't mean we don't all hope their super stars, of course we do. We are even happy to be wrong when the team improves as a result.

spkb25 09-03-2018 12:58 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dude (Post 810838)
Yea I saw that later on that day after I posted. Does make me feel a little better.
Doesn't make me feel better. I think dude is not going to be any good, but if he is I'll be happy for it

spkb25 09-03-2018 01:08 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
And the problem with your comments are that by your very logic this board has no purpose. If we are not here to discuss the good and bad while offering our opinions Halo may as well shut the site down. This is what it is here for. It is for saints fans to come together and talk about the team and share our opinion. It is also here to share our successes. So the fact that we are not privileged to the behind the scenes doesn't mean all opinions are completely invalid. Look some things simply don't pass the sniff test. In the case of Leonard it is like being 3 inches from a man with chronic halitosis due to decaying teeth

AsylumGuido 09-03-2018 01:12 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810863)
Yes they cannot admit their mistake just yet. Landon Turner was undrafted and spent a few seasons making the practice squad too, what's your point? The rest were gobbled up by other teams...not good ol Rick. You came on here, as you always do, telling people with legit concerns (that the draft pick made no sense because he was considered 7th round or not drafted) that they didn't know what they're talking about. It is near the same thing you say on damn near every post. People are here to espouse their opinions on the team. To discuss the decisions by the team. Guess what, news for you, we we're all right that his pick in that round was undeserved.

Now on to the next wait and see, how long until Sed Ellis brother, shankins, is with the team.

And btw just because we critize doesn't mean we don't all hope their super stars, of course we do. We are even happy to be wrong when the team improves as a result.
And you normally complain about every move the Saints make whether off-season or in game. I'm sure you hope the best, but you constantly criticize. We've been debating this for years now.

You are ALWAYS going to be negative. I will ALWAYS be positive.

It's the way we roll. Going to always be friction, but our common ground is the love for our Saints. I know that.

AsylumGuido 09-03-2018 01:18 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810867)
And the problem with your comments are that by your very logic this board has no purpose. If we are not here to discuss the good and bad while offering our opinions Halo may as well shut the site down. This is what it is here for. It is for saints fans to come together and talk about the team and share our opinion. It is also here to share our successes. So the fact that we are not privileged to the behind the scenes doesn't mean all opinions are completely invalid. Look some things simply don't pass the sniff test. In the case of Leonard it is like being 3 inches from a man with chronic halitosis due to decaying teeth
No, the board has a great purpose. But immediately and constantly complaining and degrading front office moves get old to those of us with a more up-beat feeling about our Saints.

By the way, exactly how close have you been to Leonard?

Rugby Saint II 09-03-2018 01:29 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Most draft picks are long shots anyway. We hit last year and apparently hit again this year but we didn't like what we saw enough to keep them off waivers.

spkb25 09-03-2018 01:32 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 810875)
No, the board has a great purpose. But immediately and constantly complaining and degrading front office moves get old to those of us with a more up-beat feeling about our Saints.

By the way, exactly how close have you been to Leonard?
This has nothing to do with being positive or negative. Your problem is when people post their opinion you don't offer a constructive rebuttal. Instead you go to "old faithful", and tell them how they're not a coach, they're not on the staff, how do they know, etc.

There's nothing constructive about that. It is actually a negative based post by you without an ounce of supporting facts or details. In short it is useless.

If you want to make positive post while ignoring anything negative, more power to you. Right now, however, you're being accused of posting the same negative posts lacking any supporting information against the other posters. Maybe either offer something constructive in terms of why you support a specific player (as that may change someone's opinion) or say nothing and stick to positive post only.

spkb25 09-03-2018 01:35 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 810870)
And you normally complain about every move the Saints make whether off-season or in game. I'm sure you hope the best, but you constantly criticize.
Yes, but you missed my praise of the TB selection, huh. Or my consistent praise of Davenport's play. I defended their selection of Ram and Peat.so no, I criticize what I feel is deserved. If I'm wrong I admit it.

spkb25 09-03-2018 01:36 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II (Post 810884)
Most draft picks are long shots anyway. We hit last year and apparently hit again this year but we didn't like what we saw enough to keep them off waivers.
Draft picks are risky business

spkb25 09-03-2018 01:39 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 810875)

By the way, exactly how close have you been to Leonard?
Old faithful...

The Dude 09-03-2018 03:10 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810867)
And the problem with your comments are that by your very logic this board has no purpose. If we are not here to discuss the good and bad while offering our opinions Halo may as well shut the site down. This is what it is here for. It is for saints fans to come together and talk about the team and share our opinion. It is also here to share our successes. So the fact that we are not privileged to the behind the scenes doesn't mean all opinions are completely invalid. Look some things simply don't pass the sniff test. In the case of Leonard it is like being 3 inches from a man with chronic halitosis due to decaying teeth
I disagree. By Guidos logic the boards purpose is for us to only read what he posts and agree with everything he says.
In his mind it should be structured in a way that each post he makes is like an article with a small comment section at the bottom. Like the articles from TMZ.
The comments would probably be limited to 10-12 characters so about the only thing you have room to write is
“You’re right”
“Good point”
You are so smart”
“16-0”
You get the point.

AsylumGuido 09-03-2018 03:42 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dude (Post 810908)
I disagree. By Guidos logic the boards purpose is for us to only read what he posts and agree with everything he says.
In his mind it should be structured in a way that each post he makes is like an article with a small comment section at the bottom. Like the articles from TMZ.
The comments would probably be limited to 10-12 characters so about the only thing you have room to write is
“You’re right”
“Good point”
You are so smart”
“16-0”
You get the point.
You're wrong.
Bad point.
You're not so smart.

19-0 Baby!

:bng:

AsylumGuido 09-03-2018 03:44 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810886)
This has nothing to do with being positive or negative. Your problem is when people post their opinion you don't offer a constructive rebuttal. Instead you go to "old faithful", and tell them how they're not a coach, they're not on the staff, how do they know, etc.

There's nothing constructive about that. It is actually a negative based post by you without an ounce of supporting facts or details. In short it is useless.

If you want to make positive post while ignoring anything negative, more power to you. Right now, however, you're being accused of posting the same negative posts lacking any supporting information against the other posters. Maybe either offer something constructive in terms of why you support a specific player (as that may change someone's opinion) or say nothing and stick to positive post only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810887)
Yes, but you missed my praise of the TB selection, huh. Or my consistent praise of Davenport's play. I defended their selection of Ram and Peat.so no, I criticize what I feel is deserved. If I'm wrong I admit it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810888)
Draft picks are risky business
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810889)
Old faithful...
I've missed you this off-season. Glad to see you back!

:D

jeanpierre 09-03-2018 11:00 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spkb25 (Post 810889)
Old faithful...
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dude (Post 810908)
I disagree. By Guidos logic the boards purpose is for us to only read what he posts and agree with everything he says.
In his mind it should be structured in a way that each post he makes is like an article with a small comment section at the bottom. Like the articles from TMZ.
The comments would probably be limited to 10-12 characters so about the only thing you have room to write is
“You’re right”
“Good point”
You are so smart”
“16-0”
You get the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 810915)
You're wrong.
Bad point.
You're not so smart.

19-0 Baby!

:bng:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsylumGuido (Post 810916)
I've missed you this off-season. Glad to see you back!

:D
Football is back, Gang is back together...

http://blackandgold.com/u/5271-album...icture1070.jpg

billyt81 09-04-2018 04:43 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
I have a great feeling about Taquan Smith. He catches the ball in traffic and has good size and athleticism. Davenport showed seruous flashes in limited action. Sean Peyton will find ways to use Boston Scott. Duh. Will Clapp can play almost every position on the line. This is a tough roster to make.

K Major 09-05-2018 10:57 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nola_swammi (Post 810827)
J.T. Gray did not out play Jamerson nor did he outplay him in S.T.
Here is a quick read on Gray. 6 foot, listed as a hybrid LB/hybrid safety. Fast, strong & can play the 6th slot at linebacker (played LB @ Miss St). Maybe he outplayed Stupar on special teams, no?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...4bf38.amp.html

jeanpierre 09-05-2018 03:00 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Major (Post 811067)
Here is a quick read on Gray. 6 foot, listed as a hybrid LB/hybrid safety. Fast, strong & can play the 6th slot at linebacker (played LB @ Miss St). Maybe he outplayed Stupar on special teams, no?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...4bf38.amp.html
Maybe Major, but do you remember a stand-out play in the PreSeason from Gray?!?

I liked that we snag him for nothing outta State, but I hadn't seen anything that jumped out like Stupar...

Payton's comments knocking back at Stupar's outstanding play against the Rams has now led me to believe that Payton didn't want Stupar no matter what he'd done...

dizzle88 09-05-2018 03:02 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
The one play I remember from Gray was the 40 yard PI that got called on him when he got beat and just tackled the guy before the ball was there.

Solid decision Payton, congrats.

K Major 09-05-2018 03:03 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpierre (Post 811148)

Payton's comments knocking back at Stupar's outstanding play against the Rams has now led me to believe that Payton didn't want Stupar no matter what he'd done...
I got the same vibe.

K Major 09-05-2018 03:06 PM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeanpierre (Post 811148)
Maybe Major, but do you remember a stand-out play in the PreSeason from Gray?!?
No sir, however I'm not in camp/film room & practices like the coaches are 24/7. We only get a sample size of what goes on each day.

I gotta trust the process ... *welp* :(.

spkb25 09-06-2018 07:20 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by K Major (Post 811158)
No sir, however I'm not in camp/film room & practices like the coaches are 24/7. We only get a sample size of what goes on each day.

I gotta trust the process ... *welp* :(.
That's valid but these are the same guys that kept sending browner put week on and week out 🙄

spkb25 09-06-2018 07:21 AM
Re: Analysis: Saints’ cuts more about strength of roster than players selected
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzle88 (Post 811151)
The one play I remember from Gray was the 40 yard PI that got called on him when he got beat and just tackled the guy before the ball was there.

Solid decision Payton, congrats.
So you're admitting he can make a tackle 👏👏👏


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