2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever?

dizzle88 · 02-05-2019, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

No team can advance the ball with Tommylee

Fixed it for you bud.

CHA_CHING · 02-06-2019, 11:03 PM

This is subjective and I think you can pick any of them based on whatever stats you are using.

By adjusted DVOA, the 2009 team had one of the best offenses in the NFL and their defense ranked in the top 20.

My favorite Saints player of the Sean Payton era is Pierre Thomas, whom I like to call 'the jack of all trades'. In 2009, he was doing everything - master of the screen, but also a decent blocker, shifty RB and always could catch passes on the outside.

By traditional stats, the 2009 defense ranked 25th in yards and 21 in points. All this despite being ranked #1 in turnovers.

Overall statistically, the 2018 team had a better defense, but the offense definitely was not better. I'd take 2009 and 2011 over them, as both of those offenses were stacked with more play makers.

2018 was the first great defense Sean Payton has had and it's a pity that we didn't reach a SB with this unit. They straight up bailed us out and won games when the offense was struggling. The only thing the 2018 defense ranked poorly in by the end of the year was giving up big plays. They were ranked in the high 20s, but this was an improvement over them being ranked dead last until half way into the season. If we are going by week to week stats, the Saints defense by the end of the year was one of the best units and was gradually improving week after week.

The 2018 team also has the best special teams unit I have ever seen under Payton. Lutz was automatic for most of the year with a few misses here and there and I thought the return teams were excellent, not allowing big returns. Add in the Taysom Hill stuff and this was a much better unit than we previously had.

I'm going to go wild here and say 2009 offense, 2018 defense and 2018 special teams overall, but with 2011 Brees.

TheOak · 02-07-2019, 01:46 PM

Everyone has their own gauge but winning the Super Bowl shouldn't matter because winning doesn't equate to the best team when comparing years...

Just because the 2009 team won the Super Bowl doesn't mean it played equal to or better opponents; or had an equal to or more difficult schedule.

2018 Defense blows 2009 out of the water except for turnovers, the 2018 running and passing game was much stronger as well. No knock on that 2009 team they had fantastic synergy but Kamara/Thomas are unequaled on any previous Saints roster.

SmashMouth · 02-07-2019, 01:53 PM

Can you imagine a Saints team with 4 Super Bowls? Brees with with 4 rings? Think of the conversation now of the GOAT at QB, not to mention SP..

CHA_CHING · 02-07-2019, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Everyone has their own gauge but winning the Super Bowl shouldn't matter because winning doesn't equate to the best team when comparing years...

Just because the 2009 team won the Super Bowl doesn't mean it played equal to or better opponents; or had an equal to or more difficult schedule.

Great point.

Sometimes, the best team in a year doesn't win the SB. 2007 Pats are a good example. 2006 Chargers and 2005 Colts didn't even reach the SB due to flukey playoff losses.

Weird stuff happens in the NFL. It's not a league like the NBA where juggernaut teams are unbeatable and same teams usually win the championship (There has only been 3 teams win the NBA Finals in the last 35 years who weren't the Bulls, Spurs, Warriors, Lakers and Celtics). One can point to the Pats and scream about lack of parity, but it took them 10 years to get ring #4.

2018 Defense blows 2009 out of the water except for turnovers, the 2018 running and passing game was much stronger as well. No knock on that 2009 team they had fantastic synergy but Kamara/Thomas are unequaled on any previous Saints roster.

I disagree here. The 2009 team had more weapons than just MT and Kamara, who were mostly our only play makers on offense last year. The decline near the end of the year told the tale that we definitely needed another weapon besides just those two.

Something amazing about the 2009 offense - they ranked in the top 5 most of the year on rushing, but Mike Bell was their leading rusher. You would think it was Pierre Thomas or maybe Reggie Bush, but instead it was the backup. We ran the ball so well that year and used to kill teams with the screen passes.

I wish the 2018 team had a reliable TE like Shockey for those check down passes on third down. That would've really helped us out.

TheOak · 02-07-2019, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by CHA_CHING

I disagree here. The 2009 team had more weapons than just MT and Kamara, who were mostly our only play makers on offense last year. The decline near the end of the year told the tale that we definitely needed another weapon besides just those two.

Something amazing about the 2009 offense - they ranked in the top 5 most of the year on rushing, but Mike Bell was their leading rusher. You would think it was Pierre Thomas or maybe Reggie Bush, but instead it was the backup. We ran the ball so well that year and used to kill teams with the screen passes.

I wish the 2018 team had a reliable TE like Shockey for those check down passes on third down. That would've really helped us out.

I agree on the TE completely. As far as for the offensive weapons on the 2009 team (no disrespect intended to any of them they were fantastic) but if Alvin Kamara or Michael Thomas went to another team they would Still be Super Stars, which of those 2009 offensive weapons went someone where else and achieved the same greatness?

You might want to go back and hit sort on that 2009 rushing yards stat again. Pierre Thomas had 793, Mike Bell had 654
https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nor/2009.htm

Ingram + Kamara = 20 TDs
Thomas + Bell = 11 TDs

Its very subjective and nearly too close to call, 2009 had greater synergy 2018 had better raw talent... In the end the Saints fans win because we have had the opportunity to watch some of the leagues most prolific offenses.

CHA_CHING · 02-07-2019, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

I agree on the TE completely. As far as for the offensive weapons on the 2009 team (no disrespect intended to any of them they were fantastic) but if Alvin Kamara or Michael Thomas went to another team they would Still be Super Stars, which of those 2009 offensive weapons went someone where else and achieved the same greatness?

You might want to go back and hit sort on that 2009 rushing yards stat again. Pierre Thomas had 793, Mike Bell had 654
https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nor/2009.htm

Ingram + Kamara = 20 TDs
Thomas + Bell = 11 TDs

Its very subjective and nearly too close to call, 2009 had greater synergy 2018 had better raw talent... In the end the Saints fans win because we have had the opportunity to watch some of the leagues most prolific offenses.

Thanks for the correction on Bell. My memory is a little hazy at times since my heart surgery. Appreciate the link.

jeanpierre · 02-07-2019, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

Can you imagine a Saints team with 4 Super Bowls? Brees with with 4 rings? Think of the conversation now of the GOAT at QB, not to mention SP..

And I've come to realize that my position had to change and that all the success we have flows more from Brees than Payton...

SaintGup · 02-09-2019, 02:57 AM

The 2019 team. They went 15-1 in the regular season (and the 1 loss was because we rested all of our starters) and went on to win Superbowl 54. The great thing was it was the 10th anniversary of their last Superbowl win. Drew Brees finally got the respect he deserves and won the MVP and at the end of the season Roger Goodell was asked to resign by the owners. It was a great season...

p.s. Have just arrived from the parade which was held on Wednesday 5th of February 2020...
p.p.s. Forgot to mention I have discovered the secret to time travel.

02-05-2019, 07:04 PM	#11
dizzle88 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 11,358	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? Originally Posted by jeanpierre No team can advance the ball with Tommylee Fixed it for you bud. st thomas likes this.

02-06-2019, 11:03 PM	#12
CHA_CHING 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 1,159	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? This is subjective and I think you can pick any of them based on whatever stats you are using. By adjusted DVOA, the 2009 team had one of the best offenses in the NFL and their defense ranked in the top 20. My favorite Saints player of the Sean Payton era is Pierre Thomas, whom I like to call 'the jack of all trades'. In 2009, he was doing everything - master of the screen, but also a decent blocker, shifty RB and always could catch passes on the outside. By traditional stats, the 2009 defense ranked 25th in yards and 21 in points. All this despite being ranked #1 in turnovers. Overall statistically, the 2018 team had a better defense, but the offense definitely was not better. I'd take 2009 and 2011 over them, as both of those offenses were stacked with more play makers. 2018 was the first great defense Sean Payton has had and it's a pity that we didn't reach a SB with this unit. They straight up bailed us out and won games when the offense was struggling. The only thing the 2018 defense ranked poorly in by the end of the year was giving up big plays. They were ranked in the high 20s, but this was an improvement over them being ranked dead last until half way into the season. If we are going by week to week stats, the Saints defense by the end of the year was one of the best units and was gradually improving week after week. The 2018 team also has the best special teams unit I have ever seen under Payton. Lutz was automatic for most of the year with a few misses here and there and I thought the return teams were excellent, not allowing big returns. Add in the Taysom Hill stuff and this was a much better unit than we previously had. I'm going to go wild here and say 2009 offense, 2018 defense and 2018 special teams overall, but with 2011 Brees.

02-07-2019, 01:46 PM	#13
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? Everyone has their own gauge but winning the Super Bowl shouldn't matter because winning doesn't equate to the best team when comparing years... Just because the 2009 team won the Super Bowl doesn't mean it played equal to or better opponents; or had an equal to or more difficult schedule. 2018 Defense blows 2009 out of the water except for turnovers, the 2018 running and passing game was much stronger as well. No knock on that 2009 team they had fantastic synergy but Kamara/Thomas are unequaled on any previous Saints roster. SmashMouth likes this.

02-07-2019, 01:53 PM	#14
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,200 Blog Entries: 29	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? Can you imagine a Saints team with 4 Super Bowls? Brees with with 4 rings? Think of the conversation now of the GOAT at QB, not to mention SP.. jeanpierre likes this.

02-07-2019, 03:58 PM	#15
CHA_CHING 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 1,159	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? Originally Posted by TheOak Everyone has their own gauge but winning the Super Bowl shouldn't matter because winning doesn't equate to the best team when comparing years... Just because the 2009 team won the Super Bowl doesn't mean it played equal to or better opponents; or had an equal to or more difficult schedule. Great point. Sometimes, the best team in a year doesn't win the SB. 2007 Pats are a good example. 2006 Chargers and 2005 Colts didn't even reach the SB due to flukey playoff losses. Weird stuff happens in the NFL. It's not a league like the NBA where juggernaut teams are unbeatable and same teams usually win the championship (There has only been 3 teams win the NBA Finals in the last 35 years who weren't the Bulls, Spurs, Warriors, Lakers and Celtics). One can point to the Pats and scream about lack of parity, but it took them 10 years to get ring #4. 2018 Defense blows 2009 out of the water except for turnovers, the 2018 running and passing game was much stronger as well. No knock on that 2009 team they had fantastic synergy but Kamara/Thomas are unequaled on any previous Saints roster. I disagree here. The 2009 team had more weapons than just MT and Kamara, who were mostly our only play makers on offense last year. The decline near the end of the year told the tale that we definitely needed another weapon besides just those two. Something amazing about the 2009 offense - they ranked in the top 5 most of the year on rushing, but Mike Bell was their leading rusher. You would think it was Pierre Thomas or maybe Reggie Bush, but instead it was the backup. We ran the ball so well that year and used to kill teams with the screen passes. I wish the 2018 team had a reliable TE like Shockey for those check down passes on third down. That would've really helped us out.

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02-07-2019, 07:45 PM	#16
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? Originally Posted by CHA_CHING I disagree here. The 2009 team had more weapons than just MT and Kamara, who were mostly our only play makers on offense last year. The decline near the end of the year told the tale that we definitely needed another weapon besides just those two. Something amazing about the 2009 offense - they ranked in the top 5 most of the year on rushing, but Mike Bell was their leading rusher. You would think it was Pierre Thomas or maybe Reggie Bush, but instead it was the backup. We ran the ball so well that year and used to kill teams with the screen passes. I wish the 2018 team had a reliable TE like Shockey for those check down passes on third down. That would've really helped us out. I agree on the TE completely. As far as for the offensive weapons on the 2009 team (no disrespect intended to any of them they were fantastic) but if Alvin Kamara or Michael Thomas went to another team they would Still be Super Stars, which of those 2009 offensive weapons went someone where else and achieved the same greatness? You might want to go back and hit sort on that 2009 rushing yards stat again. Pierre Thomas had 793, Mike Bell had 654 https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nor/2009.htm Ingram + Kamara = 20 TDs Thomas + Bell = 11 TDs Its very subjective and nearly too close to call, 2009 had greater synergy 2018 had better raw talent... In the end the Saints fans win because we have had the opportunity to watch some of the leagues most prolific offenses. CHA_CHING likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

02-07-2019, 07:57 PM	#17
CHA_CHING 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 1,159	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? Originally Posted by TheOak I agree on the TE completely. As far as for the offensive weapons on the 2009 team (no disrespect intended to any of them they were fantastic) but if Alvin Kamara or Michael Thomas went to another team they would Still be Super Stars, which of those 2009 offensive weapons went someone where else and achieved the same greatness? You might want to go back and hit sort on that 2009 rushing yards stat again. Pierre Thomas had 793, Mike Bell had 654 https://www.pro-football-reference.c...s/nor/2009.htm Ingram + Kamara = 20 TDs Thomas + Bell = 11 TDs Its very subjective and nearly too close to call, 2009 had greater synergy 2018 had better raw talent... In the end the Saints fans win because we have had the opportunity to watch some of the leagues most prolific offenses. Thanks for the correction on Bell. My memory is a little hazy at times since my heart surgery. Appreciate the link.

02-07-2019, 09:25 PM	#18
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? Originally Posted by SmashMouth Can you imagine a Saints team with 4 Super Bowls? Brees with with 4 rings? Think of the conversation now of the GOAT at QB, not to mention SP.. And I've come to realize that my position had to change and that all the success we have flows more from Brees than Payton... SmashMouth likes this.

02-09-2019, 02:57 AM	#19
SaintGup 500th Post Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: London, England Posts: 580	Re: 2009 vs. 2011 vs. 2018: Which team is Saints' best ever? The 2019 team. They went 15-1 in the regular season (and the 1 loss was because we rested all of our starters) and went on to win Superbowl 54. The great thing was it was the 10th anniversary of their last Superbowl win. Drew Brees finally got the respect he deserves and won the MVP and at the end of the season Roger Goodell was asked to resign by the owners. It was a great season... p.s. Have just arrived from the parade which was held on Wednesday 5th of February 2020... p.p.s. Forgot to mention I have discovered the secret to time travel.