Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another

01-18-2019, 01:23 AM

jeanpierre · 01-18-2019, 01:29 AM

BY NICK UNDERHILL | nunderhill@theadvocate.com Jan 17, 2019 - 1:51 pm

Saints Head Coach Sean Payton and Rams Coach Sean McVay
Advocate Photos

Keith Kirkwood can thank the Rams for providing his first NFL highlight.

The rookie was still on the practice squad when New Orleans played Los Angeles but was called up a couple of weeks later when the Saints played the Bengals. During the third quarter of that game, he made his longest reception of the season. It wasn’t the first catch of his career, but it is the one he will remember most about his debut.

BY DAN SWENSON | The Advocate

The design of the 42-yard reception was immaculate. A go route up the left sideline and a deep crossing route to the same side occupied two cornerbacks and a safety, clearing things out for Kirkwood. The rookie wide receiver ran a shallow crossing route and then took off up the right hashes. The play put Kirkwood on a linebacker, who never stood a chance. If not for a pass that was a little underthrown, Kirkwood would have scored.

If something about the play looked familiar, a few weeks earlier, the play carried out almost identically when Rams wide receiver Cooper Kupp used it to score a 70-yard touchdown against the Minnesota Vikings. Los Angeles coach Sean McVay did an excellent job of drawing it up, and New Orleans did a solid job of lifting it.

It was a blatant case of theft, but all is fair in football. McVay has helped himself to more than a few of Sean Payton’s concepts and plays over the years.

“Are you kidding me?” McVay said. “I take stuff from them all the time, man. The Saints are one of the best; been doing it as well as anybody for the longest period of time. I’m watching Saints film every single week without a doubt.”

McVay isn’t blowing smoke. When asked about the play against Minnesota, which was designed to get Kupp out of the “backdoor and on a backer,” the first thing he said was the Saints “ran it against the Bengals a few weeks later.” You have to be paying attention to notice something like that.

New Orleans was not the only team to borrow the play. After reviewing the plays across the league this season, The Advocate determined Atlanta also ran it Week 6 against Tampa Bay on an incompletion to Justin Hardy, and the Bills used it against the Jets for a gain of 33 on a pass to Zay Jones.

There is no question that, much like Payton, McVay has become one of the more influential minds in football.

THE ART OF IT

The Saints aren’t shy about being thieves.

There’s no shame here. Payton openly talks about the subject and will tell anyone who asks that he watches every touchdown scored in the NFL each week as well as a handful of other teams he deems “must watches.” The Rams and Eagles are two of the teams on his list.

Quarterback Drew Brees has talked about how he’ll watch other games and send plays back to offensive coordinator Pete Carmichael and quarterback coach Joe Lombardi for consideration. Each one comes replete with Brees’ narration of what is happening and how he thinks it could apply to the offense.

“We steal football plays (from) all over the place,” Brees said. “That's why I love watching football.”

But it isn’t as simple as lifting a play and dropping it into that week’s game plan. When discussing this topic before the Saints played the Rams during the regular season, Payton explained that a new play has to fit within the fabric of the offense for it to be digestible and easy to understand.

“A lot of times you have video looks where you can show them, ‘See, take a peek at this,’” Payton said. “And you show them a picture, ‘Picture if we do (that).’ And, so, we try not to come up with a lot of new inventions. Might be formation, might be personnel grouping, but I think there’s a balance there of things that they know well.”

An example of this might have happened during the divisional round of the playoffs. The Saints used a “shield screen” on a touchdown against the Cleveland Browns, which occurs when one wide receiver lays a block for another to run a screen underneath it. The Saints added a twist against the Eagles. After Keith Kirkwood laid down a block for Michael Thomas to slip under, Kirkwood peeled off and ran to the corner of the end zone for a touchdown catch.

Philadelphia ran this same concept two weeks earlier against the Houston Texans. The slip screen and the route coming off it were both covered, forcing the Eagles to target another route, but it looked suspiciously similar to a play New Orleans used in the playoffs. Even if it was just a coincidence, the play serves as an excellent example of the Saints taking a play and adding it to a pre-existing concept.

But New Orleans was only returning the favor. The week before, Philadelphia took a play from the Saints and ran it against the Bears. New Orleans used the same play, during which it fakes a screen to both sides of the field before throwing a pass to a tight end up the seam, against Chicago last year. Yes, sometimes it stings when it happens.

“I think sometimes, ‘Hey, we did that formation’ or something like that,” Saints offensive coordinator Pete Carmichael said when discussing this topic earlier this season. “Sometimes I think, ‘Ugh, they stole our play.’ But I think pretty much every team is looking for good ideas.”

New Orleans did another excellent job of blending when it used a shovel pass on a touchdown to Alvin Kamara against Minnesota. The Saints lined up in an empty set. Kamara started to motion, as he often does, before pulling in the pass. It looked like a regular Saints’ play until you realize the Patriots scored on the same one against Chicago the week before.

The influence didn’t stop there. The Panthers ran the play the next week, gaining 4 yards. Cam Newton hadn’t attempted a shovel pass to a player coming out of the slot all season with an empty backfield until that point in the season.

The Saints later used some fake-jet-sweep action on a running play Week 15 against the Carolina Panthers before Tommylee Lewis took the ball on an end around that he fumbled out of the back of the end zone. The inspiration for that call came from the Cleveland Browns, who ran the play against Carolina a week before. The Panthers also used it during the same game against the Saints.

Sometimes an idea is really good, and everyone wants a piece of it.

SAME CLOTH

It makes sense that Payton and McVay keep tabs on one another. They started from similar places.

Payton served as the quarterbacks coach for Philadelphia in 1997, where Jon Gruden was the offensive coordinator. McVay was the assistant wide receivers coach in Tampa Bay in 2008.

Payton can see the influence in both offenses.

“Plays that start off looking the same that are different,” Payton said. “I remember hearing that one hundred times and Sean has taken his spin on it.”

One of the hallmarks of both offenses is how detailed they are, which is something McVay said Gruden hammered into him as a young coach. Drew Brees remarked how well quarterback Jared Goff handles all the “moving parts” within Los Angeles’ offense earlier this week.

Nothing is as it seems in either offense. The Rams like to use motion and run a lot of things out of the same look. New Orleans wants to disguise with motions and through the use of multiple formations and personnel groups. While the approach differs, the goal is the same – to make sure the defense never sees what it is coming.

“We have a base offense, and then we evolve and build off of that offense,” Brees said. “We are very game-plan oriented. So, each and every week, there are very few calls replicated from the week before, and if they are, it’s new shifts, motions, formations, personnel groups potentially.”

The Rams are much the same way. They change, morph and shift every week. It’s one of the reasons Payton put McVay’s offense on the list of teams he watches for new ideas. And McVay feels the same. He considers Payton one of the greatest play-callers of all time.

Both of these coaches have had an evident influence on the league. Payton’s started years ago and continues to this day. McVay’s is just beginning, but he is already changing the game.

So, when one of their plays shows up on the other team’s film, you can bet the other coach is going to see it. It might sting at first to see one of your designs working for another team, but it is just a sign of respect.

vpheughan · 01-18-2019, 06:43 AM

IT'S LIKE DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!!APPEARS PLAYS AREN'T THE ONLY THINGS BEING "STOLEN"

TheOak · 01-18-2019, 09:06 AM

Doesnt the entire league use other teams items at some point? West Coast, Prevent, Zone... its all borrowed strategy

papz · 01-18-2019, 09:13 AM

I'd like to borrow the reverse plays the Eagles were running. Very well designed plays.

vpheughan · 01-18-2019, 01:31 PM

Ok, you can "borrow them" but you can't use them!

Pete · 01-18-2019, 02:33 PM

We're going to steal their souls this weekend starting with Akeeb Tah-leeb

jeanpierre · 01-19-2019, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by papz

I'd like to borrow the reverse plays the Eagles were running. Very well designed plays.

Doug Pederson went from backup QB, to HS Head Coach, Eagles Passing Coordinator, Eagles QB Coach, Chiefs OC, to Head Coach within eight years!!!

Everything he designs works...

jeanpierre · 01-20-2019, 08:33 AM

Rams even borrowed Cooks who we traded to the other conference - still I'd take Ramczyk again in that trade as much as I loved Cooks...

01-18-2019, 01:23 AM	#1
Threaded by jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39 Rating: (0 votes - average) Twitter
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01-18-2019, 01:29 AM	#2
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another BY NICK UNDERHILL \| nunderhill@theadvocate.com Jan 17, 2019 - 1:51 pm Saints Head Coach Sean Payton and Rams Coach Sean McVay Advocate Photos Keith Kirkwood can thank the Rams for providing his first NFL highlight. The rookie was still on the practice squad when New Orleans played Los Angeles but was called up a couple of weeks later when the Saints played the Bengals. During the third quarter of that game, he made his longest reception of the season. It wasn’t the first catch of his career, but it is the one he will remember most about his debut. BY DAN SWENSON \| The Advocate The design of the 42-yard reception was immaculate. A go route up the left sideline and a deep crossing route to the same side occupied two cornerbacks and a safety, clearing things out for Kirkwood. The rookie wide receiver ran a shallow crossing route and then took off up the right hashes. The play put Kirkwood on a linebacker, who never stood a chance. If not for a pass that was a little underthrown, Kirkwood would have scored. If something about the play looked familiar, a few weeks earlier, the play carried out almost identically when Rams wide receiver Cooper Kupp used it to score a 70-yard touchdown against the Minnesota Vikings. Los Angeles coach Sean McVay did an excellent job of drawing it up, and New Orleans did a solid job of lifting it. It was a blatant case of theft, but all is fair in football. McVay has helped himself to more than a few of Sean Payton’s concepts and plays over the years. “Are you kidding me?” McVay said. “I take stuff from them all the time, man. The Saints are one of the best; been doing it as well as anybody for the longest period of time. I’m watching Saints film every single week without a doubt.” McVay isn’t blowing smoke. When asked about the play against Minnesota, which was designed to get Kupp out of the “backdoor and on a backer,” the first thing he said was the Saints “ran it against the Bengals a few weeks later.” You have to be paying attention to notice something like that. New Orleans was not the only team to borrow the play. After reviewing the plays across the league this season, The Advocate determined Atlanta also ran it Week 6 against Tampa Bay on an incompletion to Justin Hardy, and the Bills used it against the Jets for a gain of 33 on a pass to Zay Jones. There is no question that, much like Payton, McVay has become one of the more influential minds in football. THE ART OF IT The Saints aren’t shy about being thieves. There’s no shame here. Payton openly talks about the subject and will tell anyone who asks that he watches every touchdown scored in the NFL each week as well as a handful of other teams he deems “must watches.” The Rams and Eagles are two of the teams on his list. Quarterback Drew Brees has talked about how he’ll watch other games and send plays back to offensive coordinator Pete Carmichael and quarterback coach Joe Lombardi for consideration. Each one comes replete with Brees’ narration of what is happening and how he thinks it could apply to the offense. “We steal football plays (from) all over the place,” Brees said. “That's why I love watching football.” But it isn’t as simple as lifting a play and dropping it into that week’s game plan. When discussing this topic before the Saints played the Rams during the regular season, Payton explained that a new play has to fit within the fabric of the offense for it to be digestible and easy to understand. “A lot of times you have video looks where you can show them, ‘See, take a peek at this,’” Payton said. “And you show them a picture, ‘Picture if we do (that).’ And, so, we try not to come up with a lot of new inventions. Might be formation, might be personnel grouping, but I think there’s a balance there of things that they know well.” An example of this might have happened during the divisional round of the playoffs. The Saints used a “shield screen” on a touchdown against the Cleveland Browns, which occurs when one wide receiver lays a block for another to run a screen underneath it. The Saints added a twist against the Eagles. After Keith Kirkwood laid down a block for Michael Thomas to slip under, Kirkwood peeled off and ran to the corner of the end zone for a touchdown catch. Philadelphia ran this same concept two weeks earlier against the Houston Texans. The slip screen and the route coming off it were both covered, forcing the Eagles to target another route, but it looked suspiciously similar to a play New Orleans used in the playoffs. Even if it was just a coincidence, the play serves as an excellent example of the Saints taking a play and adding it to a pre-existing concept. But New Orleans was only returning the favor. The week before, Philadelphia took a play from the Saints and ran it against the Bears. New Orleans used the same play, during which it fakes a screen to both sides of the field before throwing a pass to a tight end up the seam, against Chicago last year. Yes, sometimes it stings when it happens. “I think sometimes, ‘Hey, we did that formation’ or something like that,” Saints offensive coordinator Pete Carmichael said when discussing this topic earlier this season. “Sometimes I think, ‘Ugh, they stole our play.’ But I think pretty much every team is looking for good ideas.” New Orleans did another excellent job of blending when it used a shovel pass on a touchdown to Alvin Kamara against Minnesota. The Saints lined up in an empty set. Kamara started to motion, as he often does, before pulling in the pass. It looked like a regular Saints’ play until you realize the Patriots scored on the same one against Chicago the week before. The influence didn’t stop there. The Panthers ran the play the next week, gaining 4 yards. Cam Newton hadn’t attempted a shovel pass to a player coming out of the slot all season with an empty backfield until that point in the season. The Saints later used some fake-jet-sweep action on a running play Week 15 against the Carolina Panthers before Tommylee Lewis took the ball on an end around that he fumbled out of the back of the end zone. The inspiration for that call came from the Cleveland Browns, who ran the play against Carolina a week before. The Panthers also used it during the same game against the Saints. Sometimes an idea is really good, and everyone wants a piece of it. SAME CLOTH It makes sense that Payton and McVay keep tabs on one another. They started from similar places. Payton served as the quarterbacks coach for Philadelphia in 1997, where Jon Gruden was the offensive coordinator. McVay was the assistant wide receivers coach in Tampa Bay in 2008. Payton can see the influence in both offenses. “Plays that start off looking the same that are different,” Payton said. “I remember hearing that one hundred times and Sean has taken his spin on it.” One of the hallmarks of both offenses is how detailed they are, which is something McVay said Gruden hammered into him as a young coach. Drew Brees remarked how well quarterback Jared Goff handles all the “moving parts” within Los Angeles’ offense earlier this week. Nothing is as it seems in either offense. The Rams like to use motion and run a lot of things out of the same look. New Orleans wants to disguise with motions and through the use of multiple formations and personnel groups. While the approach differs, the goal is the same – to make sure the defense never sees what it is coming. “We have a base offense, and then we evolve and build off of that offense,” Brees said. “We are very game-plan oriented. So, each and every week, there are very few calls replicated from the week before, and if they are, it’s new shifts, motions, formations, personnel groups potentially.” The Rams are much the same way. They change, morph and shift every week. It’s one of the reasons Payton put McVay’s offense on the list of teams he watches for new ideas. And McVay feels the same. He considers Payton one of the greatest play-callers of all time. Both of these coaches have had an evident influence on the league. Payton’s started years ago and continues to this day. McVay’s is just beginning, but he is already changing the game. So, when one of their plays shows up on the other team’s film, you can bet the other coach is going to see it. It might sting at first to see one of your designs working for another team, but it is just a sign of respect.
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...

01-18-2019, 06:43 AM	#3
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,520	Re: Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another IT'S LIKE DEJA VU ALL OVER AGAIN!!!!!!APPEARS PLAYS AREN'T THE ONLY THINGS BEING "STOLEN"
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,520

01-18-2019, 09:06 AM	#4
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another Doesnt the entire league use other teams items at some point? West Coast, Prevent, Zone... its all borrowed strategy

01-18-2019, 09:13 AM	#5
papz Problem? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: New Orleans Posts: 11,744	Re: Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another I'd like to borrow the reverse plays the Eagles were running. Very well designed plays.

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01-18-2019, 01:31 PM	#6
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,520	Re: Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another Ok, you can "borrow them" but you can't use them!
vpheughan 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,520

01-18-2019, 02:33 PM	#7
Pete • Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Patterson, LA Posts: 1,753	Re: Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another We're going to steal their souls this weekend starting with Akeeb Tah-leeb

01-19-2019, 05:57 PM	#8
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another Originally Posted by papz I'd like to borrow the reverse plays the Eagles were running. Very well designed plays. Doug Pederson went from backup QB, to HS Head Coach, Eagles Passing Coordinator, Eagles QB Coach, Chiefs OC, to Head Coach within eight years!!! Everything he designs works...

01-20-2019, 08:33 AM	#9
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Ahead of Saints vs. Rams, how Sean Payton and Sean McVay influence, steal plays from one another Rams even borrowed Cooks who we traded to the other conference - still I'd take Ramczyk again in that trade as much as I loved Cooks...