The Heisman QB Curse Lives

saintfan · 10-28-2019, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

Jackson is in his second year. He’s led his team to a 5-2 record so far. That’s first in their division.

1,650 passing yards
63% completions
11 passing TD’s
5 INT’s

576 rushing yards
6.9 ypc
3 TD’s

I promise if that was the stat line for Taysom Hill over 7 games and he was 5-2 this fan base would be slobbering all over his dick and calling him a MVP candidate.

Not sure how Cam Newton is a bust either. He brought his team to a Super Bowl and has set plenty of NFL records.

29,041 passing yards
182 TD’s
108 INT’s
58.6% completions

4,806 rushing yards
58 TD’s
5.0 yards per carry

Hell, that’s far better numbers than Troy Aikman. Cam has more passing touchdowns on far less attempts.

I loathe Cam Newton. He's not a 'bust', but I think he's overrated. I think he's as much a liability as he is an asset. We disagree.

But I'm with you 100% on Jackson. That kid can play and the sky is the limit.

Vrillon82 · 10-29-2019, 02:44 AM

Originally Posted by saintfan

I loathe Cam Newton. He's not a 'bust', but I think he's overrated. I think he's as much a liability as he is an asset. We disagree.

But I'm with you 100% on Jackson. That kid can play and the sky is the limit.

Cam not a bust, they beginning to realize they got no WR's outside their RB.

burningmetal · 10-29-2019, 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by rezburna

Jackson is in his second year. He’s led his team to a 5-2 record so far. That’s first in their division.

1,650 passing yards
63% completions
11 passing TD’s
5 INT’s

576 rushing yards
6.9 ypc
3 TD’s

I promise if that was the stat line for Taysom Hill over 7 games and he was 5-2 this fan base would be slobbering all over his dick and calling him a MVP candidate.

Not sure how Cam Newton is a bust either. He brought his team to a Super Bowl and has set plenty of NFL records.

29,041 passing yards
182 TD’s
108 INT’s
58.6% completions

4,806 rushing yards
58 TD’s
5.0 yards per carry

Hell, that’s far better numbers than Troy Aikman. Cam has more passing touchdowns on far less attempts.

Cam is not a bust, in the sense of being horrible or useless. He has to be used in a very specific way, and that style of play has predictably gotten his body beaten up. It's why no one wanted the college style running QB for so many years.

As a passer, he's a gunslinger who isn't particularly accurate. A completion percentage under 60% in today's NFL is pretty bad. You mentioned him having better numbers than Troy Aikman. When Cam's career is over, you'll notice that he'll have "better" numbers than a lot of hall of famers. That goes for pretty much any QB who starts for at least 10 years in this era. QB's are so sheltered by the rules now, and with all the emphasis on having to tackle a certain way, receivers have a lot more freedom. And aside from that, the NFL has gone through several offensive revolutions that have opened up the field for QB's.

Being a great QB is about being efficient, making all the necessary throws, and being able to adjust to different situations. QB's in Aikman's day did not throw it NEARLY as much as they do today. But if they were required to throw the ball 40 times in a game, the great one's could put up massive numbers. That just wasn't the preferred style and, again, defenses were MUCH more physical, because they were allowed to be.

So comparing stats with different eras is pointless. So far, Lamar Jackson is doing well and reminds me a ton of Michael Vick in his prime years with the Falcons. We'll see how long he holds up. That is always the question with that style of QB. It's exciting for a while, but these guys tend to flame out pretty quickly. An athletic QB who has reasonable accuracy is very difficult to game plan for, but when you run it like a running back, 15 to 20 times every game, your body breaks down like a running back. It's why I would never want to put my franchise on the back of a dual threat QB. Too much money involved to have your QB taking that many shots.

Saint in Aus · 10-29-2019, 06:58 AM

I think Murray will be good.

Vrillon82 · 10-29-2019, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by Saint in Aus

I think Murray will be good.

I dont honestly. I think Lamar is going to drop off alot at some point, Murray aint even really showing anything to indicate he will ever be good. But hard to tell when he dont have proper coaching.

rezburna · 10-30-2019, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Cam is not a bust, in the sense of being horrible or useless. He has to be used in a very specific way, and that style of play has predictably gotten his body beaten up. It's why no one wanted the college style running QB for so many years.

As a passer, he's a gunslinger who isn't particularly accurate. A completion percentage under 60% in today's NFL is pretty bad. You mentioned him having better numbers than Troy Aikman. When Cam's career is over, you'll notice that he'll have "better" numbers than a lot of hall of famers. That goes for pretty much any QB who starts for at least 10 years in this era. QB's are so sheltered by the rules now, and with all the emphasis on having to tackle a certain way, receivers have a lot more freedom. And aside from that, the NFL has gone through several offensive revolutions that have opened up the field for QB's.

Being a great QB is about being efficient, making all the necessary throws, and being able to adjust to different situations. QB's in Aikman's day did not throw it NEARLY as much as they do today. But if they were required to throw the ball 40 times in a game, the great one's could put up massive numbers. That just wasn't the preferred style and, again, defenses were MUCH more physical, because they were allowed to be.

So comparing stats with different eras is pointless. So far, Lamar Jackson is doing well and reminds me a ton of Michael Vick in his prime years with the Falcons. We'll see how long he holds up. That is always the question with that style of QB. It's exciting for a while, but these guys tend to flame out pretty quickly. An athletic QB who has reasonable accuracy is very difficult to game plan for, but when you run it like a running back, 15 to 20 times every game, your body breaks down like a running back. It's why I would never want to put my franchise on the back of a dual threat QB. Too much money involved to have your QB taking that many shots.

I made it a point to reference the fact that Newton has far more TD’s with much less attempts than Aikman. As far as Jackson, he doesn’t remind me of Vick at all. Vick wasn’t even close to completing 60% of his passes. Jackson is completing 63%. That’s a mark we HOPE a Taysom Hill could match if he ever became a starter.

burningmetal · 10-30-2019, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I made it a point to reference the fact that Newton has far more TD’s with much less attempts than Aikman. As far as Jackson, he doesn’t remind me of Vick at all. Vick wasn’t even close to completing 60% of his passes. Jackson is completing 63%. That’s a mark we HOPE a Taysom Hill could match if he ever became a starter.

And I made a point of reminding you of the massive difference in the rules today. Touchdown passes is your argument? When the Cowboys got near the goal line, guess who got the ball? That's the way the game was played then, and there was very little of this dink and dunk "extension of the run game" that QB's pad their stats with today.

That's all before we get into the rules that prohibit breathing on a QB's nearest relative, or throwing a flag for hitting a receiver in a way that isn't absolutely perfect. If you put guys like Aikman, and especially Elway, Young, Montana and Marino in today's NFL, they'd be blowing away Cam's stats.

rezburna · 10-31-2019, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

And I made a point of reminding you of the massive difference in the rules today. Touchdown passes is your argument? When the Cowboys got near the goal line, guess who got the ball? That's the way the game was played then, and there was very little of this dink and dunk "extension of the run game" that QB's pad their stats with today.

That's all before we get into the rules that prohibit breathing on a QB's nearest relative, or throwing a flag for hitting a receiver in a way that isn't absolutely perfect. If you put guys like Aikman, and especially Elway, Young, Montana and Marino in today's NFL, they'd be blowing away Cam's stats.

When the Panthers got near the goal line they ran Cam Newton, DeAngelo Williams, or Jonathan Stewart. The Panthers have been a run heavy organization for decades now. And honestly, Cam doesn’t get those calls. He has the “Shaq and LeBron Effect” at the position.

Vrillon82 · 10-29-2019, 06:24 AM

Aikman didnt even make it 10 years in the NFL either.

Rugby Saint II · 10-29-2019, 02:07 PM

When a QB is drafted high he goes to the crappiest team out there. Even a Heisman trophy winner can't carry a bad organization on their shoulders. He can't throw without a line to protect him. He doesn't play defense or special teams. He isn't in the room when the weekly game plan is drawn up. He isn't a scout or involved in the draft. What a good QB can do is limited to the players around him. Yes, he can make the team better but he can't do any more than Drew with a team devoid of talent. We were 7-9 until Jeff Ireland came on board.

10-28-2019, 11:02 PM	#1
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives Originally Posted by rezburna Jackson is in his second year. He’s led his team to a 5-2 record so far. That’s first in their division. 1,650 passing yards 63% completions 11 passing TD’s 5 INT’s 576 rushing yards 6.9 ypc 3 TD’s I promise if that was the stat line for Taysom Hill over 7 games and he was 5-2 this fan base would be slobbering all over his dick and calling him a MVP candidate. Not sure how Cam Newton is a bust either. He brought his team to a Super Bowl and has set plenty of NFL records. 29,041 passing yards 182 TD’s 108 INT’s 58.6% completions 4,806 rushing yards 58 TD’s 5.0 yards per carry Hell, that’s far better numbers than Troy Aikman. Cam has more passing touchdowns on far less attempts. I loathe Cam Newton. He's not a 'bust', but I think he's overrated. I think he's as much a liability as he is an asset. We disagree. But I'm with you 100% on Jackson. That kid can play and the sky is the limit. burningmetal likes this.

10-29-2019, 02:44 AM	#2
Vrillon82 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,127	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives Originally Posted by saintfan I loathe Cam Newton. He's not a 'bust', but I think he's overrated. I think he's as much a liability as he is an asset. We disagree. But I'm with you 100% on Jackson. That kid can play and the sky is the limit. Cam not a bust, they beginning to realize they got no WR's outside their RB.
Vrillon82 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,127

10-29-2019, 03:33 AM	#3
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives Originally Posted by rezburna Jackson is in his second year. He’s led his team to a 5-2 record so far. That’s first in their division. 1,650 passing yards 63% completions 11 passing TD’s 5 INT’s 576 rushing yards 6.9 ypc 3 TD’s I promise if that was the stat line for Taysom Hill over 7 games and he was 5-2 this fan base would be slobbering all over his dick and calling him a MVP candidate. Not sure how Cam Newton is a bust either. He brought his team to a Super Bowl and has set plenty of NFL records. 29,041 passing yards 182 TD’s 108 INT’s 58.6% completions 4,806 rushing yards 58 TD’s 5.0 yards per carry Hell, that’s far better numbers than Troy Aikman. Cam has more passing touchdowns on far less attempts. Cam is not a bust, in the sense of being horrible or useless. He has to be used in a very specific way, and that style of play has predictably gotten his body beaten up. It's why no one wanted the college style running QB for so many years. As a passer, he's a gunslinger who isn't particularly accurate. A completion percentage under 60% in today's NFL is pretty bad. You mentioned him having better numbers than Troy Aikman. When Cam's career is over, you'll notice that he'll have "better" numbers than a lot of hall of famers. That goes for pretty much any QB who starts for at least 10 years in this era. QB's are so sheltered by the rules now, and with all the emphasis on having to tackle a certain way, receivers have a lot more freedom. And aside from that, the NFL has gone through several offensive revolutions that have opened up the field for QB's. Being a great QB is about being efficient, making all the necessary throws, and being able to adjust to different situations. QB's in Aikman's day did not throw it NEARLY as much as they do today. But if they were required to throw the ball 40 times in a game, the great one's could put up massive numbers. That just wasn't the preferred style and, again, defenses were MUCH more physical, because they were allowed to be. So comparing stats with different eras is pointless. So far, Lamar Jackson is doing well and reminds me a ton of Michael Vick in his prime years with the Falcons. We'll see how long he holds up. That is always the question with that style of QB. It's exciting for a while, but these guys tend to flame out pretty quickly. An athletic QB who has reasonable accuracy is very difficult to game plan for, but when you run it like a running back, 15 to 20 times every game, your body breaks down like a running back. It's why I would never want to put my franchise on the back of a dual threat QB. Too much money involved to have your QB taking that many shots.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

10-29-2019, 06:58 AM	#4
Saint in Aus 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 468	The Heisman QB Curse Lives I think Murray will be good.

10-29-2019, 07:02 AM	#5
Vrillon82 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,127	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives Originally Posted by Saint in Aus I think Murray will be good. I dont honestly. I think Lamar is going to drop off alot at some point, Murray aint even really showing anything to indicate he will ever be good. But hard to tell when he dont have proper coaching.
Vrillon82 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,127

10-30-2019, 06:01 PM	#6
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 8,099	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives Originally Posted by burningmetal Cam is not a bust, in the sense of being horrible or useless. He has to be used in a very specific way, and that style of play has predictably gotten his body beaten up. It's why no one wanted the college style running QB for so many years. As a passer, he's a gunslinger who isn't particularly accurate. A completion percentage under 60% in today's NFL is pretty bad. You mentioned him having better numbers than Troy Aikman. When Cam's career is over, you'll notice that he'll have "better" numbers than a lot of hall of famers. That goes for pretty much any QB who starts for at least 10 years in this era. QB's are so sheltered by the rules now, and with all the emphasis on having to tackle a certain way, receivers have a lot more freedom. And aside from that, the NFL has gone through several offensive revolutions that have opened up the field for QB's. Being a great QB is about being efficient, making all the necessary throws, and being able to adjust to different situations. QB's in Aikman's day did not throw it NEARLY as much as they do today. But if they were required to throw the ball 40 times in a game, the great one's could put up massive numbers. That just wasn't the preferred style and, again, defenses were MUCH more physical, because they were allowed to be. So comparing stats with different eras is pointless. So far, Lamar Jackson is doing well and reminds me a ton of Michael Vick in his prime years with the Falcons. We'll see how long he holds up. That is always the question with that style of QB. It's exciting for a while, but these guys tend to flame out pretty quickly. An athletic QB who has reasonable accuracy is very difficult to game plan for, but when you run it like a running back, 15 to 20 times every game, your body breaks down like a running back. It's why I would never want to put my franchise on the back of a dual threat QB. Too much money involved to have your QB taking that many shots. I made it a point to reference the fact that Newton has far more TD’s with much less attempts than Aikman. As far as Jackson, he doesn’t remind me of Vick at all. Vick wasn’t even close to completing 60% of his passes. Jackson is completing 63%. That’s a mark we HOPE a Taysom Hill could match if he ever became a starter. Crusader likes this.

10-30-2019, 07:33 PM	#7
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives Originally Posted by rezburna I made it a point to reference the fact that Newton has far more TD’s with much less attempts than Aikman. As far as Jackson, he doesn’t remind me of Vick at all. Vick wasn’t even close to completing 60% of his passes. Jackson is completing 63%. That’s a mark we HOPE a Taysom Hill could match if he ever became a starter. And I made a point of reminding you of the massive difference in the rules today. Touchdown passes is your argument? When the Cowboys got near the goal line, guess who got the ball? That's the way the game was played then, and there was very little of this dink and dunk "extension of the run game" that QB's pad their stats with today. That's all before we get into the rules that prohibit breathing on a QB's nearest relative, or throwing a flag for hitting a receiver in a way that isn't absolutely perfect. If you put guys like Aikman, and especially Elway, Young, Montana and Marino in today's NFL, they'd be blowing away Cam's stats.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

10-31-2019, 12:08 PM	#8
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 8,099	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives Originally Posted by burningmetal And I made a point of reminding you of the massive difference in the rules today. Touchdown passes is your argument? When the Cowboys got near the goal line, guess who got the ball? That's the way the game was played then, and there was very little of this dink and dunk "extension of the run game" that QB's pad their stats with today. That's all before we get into the rules that prohibit breathing on a QB's nearest relative, or throwing a flag for hitting a receiver in a way that isn't absolutely perfect. If you put guys like Aikman, and especially Elway, Young, Montana and Marino in today's NFL, they'd be blowing away Cam's stats. When the Panthers got near the goal line they ran Cam Newton, DeAngelo Williams, or Jonathan Stewart. The Panthers have been a run heavy organization for decades now. And honestly, Cam doesn’t get those calls. He has the “Shaq and LeBron Effect” at the position.

10-29-2019, 06:24 AM	#9
Vrillon82 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,127	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives Aikman didnt even make it 10 years in the NFL either.
Vrillon82 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,127

10-29-2019, 02:07 PM	#10
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,153	Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives When a QB is drafted high he goes to the crappiest team out there. Even a Heisman trophy winner can't carry a bad organization on their shoulders. He can't throw without a line to protect him. He doesn't play defense or special teams. He isn't in the room when the weekly game plan is drawn up. He isn't a scout or involved in the draft. What a good QB can do is limited to the players around him. Yes, he can make the team better but he can't do any more than Drew with a team devoid of talent. We were 7-9 until Jeff Ireland came on board.
	There Are Two Kinds Of People In This World Being A Rugby Player Is Better Than Both Of Them