The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Since 2000 Chris Weinke, Eric Crouch, Carson Palmer, Jason White, Matt Leinart, Troy Smith, Tim Tebow, Sam Bradford, Cam Newton, RGIII, Johnny Football, Jameis CrabLegs, Marcus Mariota, Lamar Jackson, Baker Mayfield, Kyler Murray.

More BUSTS than a stripper convention!!

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Carson Palmer wasn't a bust to me.

I'd also exclude Troy Smith from the equation. He went 5th round in his draft class.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

A few of those guys have had pretty good careers and we would have been thrilled to have them pre Brees. Murray looked like he has the goods but just doesn’t benefit from a whole lot of talent around him.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Agree on Palmer. I had a front row seat (Not really. No way I buy a ticket to this POS team unless the Saints are in town) to see what happens when a Heisman winning #1 draft pick ends up under center of a stinking pile of sh*t team. The fact that Palmer was able to compile a 46-51 record while here probably warrants consideration for the NFL Hall of Fame.

Even Brees, Manning or Brady couldn't have saved the Bungles from the genius of Mike Brown.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Speaking of the Bengals, remember those Akili Smith years?

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Palmer is the one guy in the list I would probably take as a QB. He was decent but was on bad teams, like how we saw Archie Manning back in the day.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Yep. Smith was part of the revolving door of Bungles QBs and coaches. I looked up his Wiki page to refresh my memory on the years he played here. The items that caught my attention included this....

"Smith scored a 16 out of 50 on the NFL-administered Wonderlic test when he first took the exam in 1998. His agent Leigh Steinberg hired a tutor to help improve his score for the 1999 scouting combine, and he scored a 37 on the second try."

And this beauty.
"Prior to the draft, there was an effort by New Orleans Saints' head coach Mike Ditka and management to get the Cincinnati Bengals' high draft position so the Saints could get Ricky Williams. The final offer, which was refused by Bengals management, was for nine draft picks, several extra in that year as well as many the next year. Instead of taking the trade, the Bengals stayed with their initial decision to draft Smith, who, while athletic, (he had also played two years of minor-league baseball and ran a 4.66 40-yard dash was still largely unproven, having only succeeded at the college level for one season."

So, Mike Brown had first right of refusal on Ditka's infamous deal and turned down 9 draft picks....for Akili Smith. And we wonder why the Bungles are the Bungles. At least Smith was able to stay out of jail. When I first moved to Cinci the joke going around town was that the team photos were always taken at the Hamilton County jail.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

I don't believe it's really a curse. Most of those QBs sucked and the ones who didn't, faced careers that were cut short by unfortunate injuries.

Winning the Heisman is a big deal in college, but more times than not, these players in the NFL don't really have great careers. Mark Ingram has a Heisman and you'll never see his name among the GOAT running backs no matter how much the fans on here like to claim he was so great for us.

Carson Palmer absolutely was not a bust. He was off to a great start in 2006 too until his injury in the playoffs. He was never quite the same again after that, even counting the good seasons he had in Cincy after that. Palmer did manage to have a late career surge putting out a great campaign in 2015 but we mostly remember that awful playoff game where he had 4 INTs.

Cam Newton also wasn't a bust. I know we hate him for being a Panthers QB, but Newton used to give us fits years ago. Whether it was a weak year for MVPs or not, he still has that achievement on his resume. I remember when Cam was big enough to be an LB and would plow through guys when he took off running. The Broncos ended his career in that SB loss where they exposed him and then they finished him off in the 2016 season opener with those blows to the head.

RGIII had bust written all over him and I tried to tell people years ago when Colts fans debated they'd rather him over Luck (Bill Polian wanted RGIII over Luck, even going as far as to claim that's who he would've picked).

Mobile QBs like RGIII and Lamar Jackson usually don't have lock careers cause they rack up injuries from running around.

Manziel and Mayfield I figured were going to be busts too cause they were such douchebags in college and getting into trouble.

I can't believe Murray was even a #1 overall draft pick. What I saw yesterday was a bust QB who really can't make plays and is in for a world of pain when the Cards have to start facing defenses that blitz and knock him around.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Wow ... just wow.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

History says...stay away from Heisman Trophy winners, especially those that play QB. Some years back I looked up how many Heisman winners won a Super Bowl. The results showed that Heisman RBs had a decent showing. QBs...not so much.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

On stat sites, guys debate how good Archie truly was, cause he really did not elevate the Saints in those early years.

The Saints actually lost more games after he was drafted, which is the opposite of the old claim that a good QB will get you a few wins the team would've lost without them.

The flip side to this is that Manning was pretty much ruined before he could've even got started and that's a fair argument to push. He was sacked over 50+ times in those first two seasons and when he finally started to hit his peak as a player, the damage was done.

I think Archie is the greatest "what if" argument in NFL stat realms cause BOTH arguments have their points and it's really impossible to take sides. He's one of the very, very few players in history and through stats where there is a common ground in the middle where both sides are right.

I've long believed this is why Archie didn't want Eli going to San Diego. He probably told him "don't go to a team with horrible management, you'll end up like me." and that prompted his decision to refuse to go there. I don't entirely fault Eli for this or blame Archie for wanting something better for his son. John Elway did it too and he knew what the hell he was doing by avoiding the mess with the Colts organization in those years.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

to early to call the last 3 bust and Jackson and Murray are not even on the path to be called bust. certainly Cam Newton isn't a bust.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

All true.

Another Heisman QB who was a massive bust - Andre Ware. The Lions managed to draft him and Barry Sanders; two Heisman guys on the same team.

Ware was pretty much a bust who couldn't throw down field that first year. Detroit used to put him in for clean up duty when they were getting blown out.

Funny enough despite the narrative of how "bad" the Lions were in Sanders' years, they made the playoffs in 1991 when they had Erik Kramer at QB replacing Ware. They even won a playoff game, something that no other Lions team managed to achieve.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Back in this era good QBs never necessarily made a team better like it does today. We saw guys like Jim Zorn, Manning, Norm Snead, Pastorini (sp?), list goes on that never really took their teams to much anything, Pastorini was the closest but was on a team that built a good lineup of players and a guy like Earl Campbell. Any of those guys added to a Raiders or Steelers squad in the 70s probably would of made them better than having Stabler or Bradshaw.

Management thing is right on, some of these teams including ours had horrible management, its a make or break on if a team will succeed or QB succeed, San Diego still has no trophy, even with Phillip Rivers who is probably one of the best QBs still playing right now with no SB. Dont help none they cant get Melvin Gordon under contract which is key piece of them going anywhere. Then you look in our own division with Matt Ryan, about the only real upside there in Atl, and they got a front office of nothing but has beens, former GMs, and an idiot coach that inherited a good defense without doing anything in Seattle, thats a mess to walk into.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Matter of fact they beat Dallas, got to the NFCCG.

But it came down on if you could stop Sanders.

The 91 team didnt just beat Dallas, they blew them out.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

This is simply not true and I'll explain at length.

Good QBs not named Archie Manning, have helped bad teams win games. Archie is statistically one of the few good QBs not to (and arguably the only one out of famous QBs), hence why this argument comes up with stat nerds who analyze this sort of thing. Archie holds the record for all time most career losses. Ken Anderson was on some dreadful Cincy teams early on and got them more wins than they would've achieved without him. Brian Sipe also was on some pretty bad Browns teams and they won games that they were supposed to lose. A young Joe Montana also got the 49ers some wins in 1980 when they should've lost; including that 35-7 comeback against us. Archie does not have any games like that on his resume. He was on the opposite side of huge comebacks; that 49ers game from 1980 and the 1979 MNF loss to the Raiders where Stabler came back against us.

Sipe and Anderson went on to win MVPs after they developed into good QBs and had their peaks (Anderson is the one QB who should be in the HoF and isn't). Montana as we all know became one of the best ever.

Dan Fouts also played on some terrible Chargers teams and got them wins when they should've lost. Fouts became an elite QB after the 1978 Mel Blount rule that opened up offenses. This is also when Archie finally put together a pretty good season and started having his peak. It wasn't dominant like Fouts, but he was pretty good. One topic that is brought up with stat nerds who analyze the 1970s, is this rule and how it changed the game so much, cause suddenly passing offenses opened up. At the time, the SB rematch between Dallas and Pittsburgh became the highest scoring SB ever with that rule change in effect. Terry Bradshaw also put up a great season with that rule change and won himself an MVP. Steve Bartkowski also went on to have a little prime peak and make pro bowls after the rule change.

There's also Bert Jones; the QB who really deserves to get all the credit Archie gets as the "best that never was" but is never mentioned by anyone except old Colts fans and stat nerds. Jones won an MVP and put up one of the statistical best seasons of QB at the time back in 1976. Even to this day, that is still an impressive year for a QB and it looks better than the other MVP seasons from QBs in the 70's cause in the decade where INT percentage was at an all time high, Jones had the lowest besides Roger Staubach (whom never won an MVP and Jones' 1976 campaign arguably stole it from him). Jones could've been amazing and he truly carried what was a mediocre Colts team to the playoffs where they were slaughtered by Pittsburgh. Those 2 Colts teams with Jones who made the post season were not that great. They failed to build an o-line and ended up getting the poor guy injured as a result of it cause he spent most of his time running for his life. Jones did everything Archie never did and with a mediocre team around him.

Archie is the only one of the good QBs who didn't make his team better in this time frame and hence why stat nerds argue and debate this endlessly. The Saints lost more after Archie was drafted and the starter. He didn't really begin to turn it around until 1978 and then 1979, and yet we were still a losing team those years. We were a 1-15 train wreck in 1980 and yet that was probably his best season. Archie is an anomaly. I have watched a number of Saints games from back then on tape and one thing I can say, we absolutely crapped the bed in the few primetime games we had. Archie would meltdown in those games. The MNF game against the Raiders is the worst.

Pastorini was not a good QB and I've watched a lot of old Luv Ya Blues Oilers tape over the years, I always had a soft spot for the Oilers and miss them as a team. Those Oilers teams entire offense was just Earl Campbell and they won games because of their defense and Earl being awesome. Part of the reason Earl has been in such bad shape since he retired is cause Bum liked to run him every down, it tore his body up. Their defenses were actually underrated in the Bum Phillips era and don't quite get the credit they deserve. They completely wrecked the Chargers in San Diego with Gifford Neilsen at starting QB and that game was largely won thanks to defense. Vernon Perry; a name forgotten in history, picked off Fouts 4 times. If one game made you a Hall of Famer, Perry had it that day. Fouts had a total of 5 INTs in that game and the Chargers lost 17-14. The Oilers didn't have to score a ton of points, they just had to commit less mistakes than SD was making that day.


They went from Pastorini to a washed up Ken Stabler and actually regressed. Stabler is one of the most overrated QBs of all time. I am stunned that he's in the Hall of Fame and Ken Anderson is not when Anderson has everything you could ask for except a ring and a much better resume than Stabler. People complain about Joe Namath being in there, but Stabler's efficiency numbers are just as bad with Namath being slightly worse. Namath at least had his deep ball and low sack percentage numbers that still look impressive today in some regards. Stabler had a 5 year window where he was good and only in 3 of those years was he truly elite. Both Namath and Stabler suffer from the same thing though - they declined so much after their peaks and the longer they stayed in the NFL, the worse their overall career averages became. This is a trend with gunslinger QBs too. All of them not named Brett Favre those bad overall numbers and even Favre had some down years.

Stabler was only good for 5 years of his career and even during that time, the Raiders were absolutely loaded with HoFers and All Pro players on both sides of the ball. He had a good post season run in 1977 and one of his last memorable games was the one against us with the big comeback win on MNF. But there was a reason why the Raiders wanted to move on from a guy who had an MVP and won a SB.

The Raiders were so stacked they were able to get rid of Stabler, grab a journeyman QB and go back to the SB the next year. There's a reason why Plunkett isn't in the HoF despite having 2 rings.

Stabler actually had the chance to stick it to the Raiders when they faced Houston in the playoffs. He put up horrible numbers and the Oilers got blown out. Houston ultimately wasted Earl Campbell's prime with having bad QBs, not that far fetched from how the Lions squandered Barry Sanders' prime. I always found it crazy that when Bum came here and got rid of Archie, he brought in Stabler, who had been terrible in Houston.

One last note on Archie - the guys on Canal Street Chronicles who do the Saints Happy Hour podcast and Drunk Saints History, did a segment a few summers ago debating on who was the most overrated Saint ever. Ralph on there picked Dalton Hilliard, and I can't remember who said Archie, but he was brought into that discussion. Ralph mentioned the Peter King SI article which has the best run down of Archie's woes that set him up to fail. One thing they brought up that I do agree with - Archie was the "light at the end of the tunnel" for many older fans who wanted to believe those teams had a chance. We didn't really turn it around until the Bum Phillips years that opened the door to Mora and later his success.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

How is Lamar Jackson a bust?

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Jackson is in his second year. He’s led his team to a 5-2 record so far. That’s first in their division.

1,650 passing yards
63% completions
11 passing TD’s
5 INT’s

576 rushing yards
6.9 ypc
3 TD’s

I promise if that was the stat line for Taysom Hill over 7 games and he was 5-2 this fan base would be slobbering all over his dick and calling him a MVP candidate.

Not sure how Cam Newton is a bust either. He brought his team to a Super Bowl and has set plenty of NFL records.

29,041 passing yards
182 TD’s
108 INT’s
58.6% completions

4,806 rushing yards
58 TD’s
5.0 yards per carry

Hell, that’s far better numbers than Troy Aikman. Cam has more passing touchdowns on far less attempts.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

I loathe Cam Newton. He's not a 'bust', but I think he's overrated. I think he's as much a liability as he is an asset. We disagree.

But I'm with you 100% on Jackson. That kid can play and the sky is the limit.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

I dunno, I mean look at some of the teams that won and went to the playoffs in the 70s and even early 80s, alot of these teams you could never name or recognize the QBs for them. Like the 79 Rams.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Cam not a bust, they beginning to realize they got no WR's outside their RB.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Cam is not a bust, in the sense of being horrible or useless. He has to be used in a very specific way, and that style of play has predictably gotten his body beaten up. It's why no one wanted the college style running QB for so many years.

As a passer, he's a gunslinger who isn't particularly accurate. A completion percentage under 60% in today's NFL is pretty bad. You mentioned him having better numbers than Troy Aikman. When Cam's career is over, you'll notice that he'll have "better" numbers than a lot of hall of famers. That goes for pretty much any QB who starts for at least 10 years in this era. QB's are so sheltered by the rules now, and with all the emphasis on having to tackle a certain way, receivers have a lot more freedom. And aside from that, the NFL has gone through several offensive revolutions that have opened up the field for QB's.

Being a great QB is about being efficient, making all the necessary throws, and being able to adjust to different situations. QB's in Aikman's day did not throw it NEARLY as much as they do today. But if they were required to throw the ball 40 times in a game, the great one's could put up massive numbers. That just wasn't the preferred style and, again, defenses were MUCH more physical, because they were allowed to be.

So comparing stats with different eras is pointless. So far, Lamar Jackson is doing well and reminds me a ton of Michael Vick in his prime years with the Falcons. We'll see how long he holds up. That is always the question with that style of QB. It's exciting for a while, but these guys tend to flame out pretty quickly. An athletic QB who has reasonable accuracy is very difficult to game plan for, but when you run it like a running back, 15 to 20 times every game, your body breaks down like a running back. It's why I would never want to put my franchise on the back of a dual threat QB. Too much money involved to have your QB taking that many shots.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Aikman didnt even make it 10 years in the NFL either.

The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

I think Murray will be good.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

I dont honestly. I think Lamar is going to drop off alot at some point, Murray aint even really showing anything to indicate he will ever be good. But hard to tell when he dont have proper coaching.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

No doubt he certainly wouldn't mind growing a pair. :shock:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5b/3d/9e/5...895651c1d2.jpg

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

When a QB is drafted high he goes to the crappiest team out there. Even a Heisman trophy winner can't carry a bad organization on their shoulders. He can't throw without a line to protect him. He doesn't play defense or special teams. He isn't in the room when the weekly game plan is drawn up. He isn't a scout or involved in the draft. What a good QB can do is limited to the players around him. Yes, he can make the team better but he can't do any more than Drew with a team devoid of talent. We were 7-9 until Jeff Ireland came on board.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

Palmer good. Bradford injuries. Newton has won. RGIII great rookie year then injuries. Jackson has improved as a passer and the Ravens are saying screw it, let him run. Mayfield has a horrible OL and HC. I believe Murray will be successful. His team isn't good and he's made them competitive.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

It's a list of Heisman winning QB's since 2000. Never called anyone in particular a "bust" Just mentioned there were many busts in the group.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

I made it a point to reference the fact that Newton has far more TD’s with much less attempts than Aikman. As far as Jackson, he doesn’t remind me of Vick at all. Vick wasn’t even close to completing 60% of his passes. Jackson is completing 63%. That’s a mark we HOPE a Taysom Hill could match if he ever became a starter.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

And I made a point of reminding you of the massive difference in the rules today. Touchdown passes is your argument? When the Cowboys got near the goal line, guess who got the ball? That's the way the game was played then, and there was very little of this dink and dunk "extension of the run game" that QB's pad their stats with today.

That's all before we get into the rules that prohibit breathing on a QB's nearest relative, or throwing a flag for hitting a receiver in a way that isn't absolutely perfect. If you put guys like Aikman, and especially Elway, Young, Montana and Marino in today's NFL, they'd be blowing away Cam's stats.

Re: The Heisman QB Curse Lives
 

When the Panthers got near the goal line they ran Cam Newton, DeAngelo Williams, or Jonathan Stewart. The Panthers have been a run heavy organization for decades now. And honestly, Cam doesn’t get those calls. He has the “Shaq and LeBron Effect” at the position.