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Brees is done

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Most of you have probably noticed how often I mention NFL Radio on XM and especially the program Moving the Chains . MtC is hosted by Pat Kirwan, former GM and longtime coach, and Jim Miller, ...

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Old 11-14-2019, 10:34 AM   #121
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
Most of you have probably noticed how often I mention NFL Radio on XM and especially the program Moving the Chains. MtC is hosted by Pat Kirwan, former GM and longtime coach, and Jim Miller, longtime QB and coach. Their radio show is their full-time time job. Unlike almost every other talking head, they spend all of their time watching video and taking copious notes for their daily show. They don't have main gigs such as TV analysts or journalists. This is what they do and love. They interview head coaches regularly and accept a great deal of calls from average fans like us. I have learned more about the NFL over the past ten or more years that I have listened to these guys than from every other source combined over my entire 62 years. They commonly debunk so many misconceptions brought up by the average caller.



One of the most common misconceptions that they address is the supposed statistical correlation of number (or percentage of carries) to the winning of games. They repeatedly point out that the casual fan sees this correlation as the frequency of the running play begets the percentage of wins, yet it is actually quite the opposite. Success in the other facets of the game allows a team to run the ball more often. Blindly running the ball repeatedly into a defense that has the personnel, and scheme, to shut down the run will not lead to success. What it will lead to are repeated three and outs. They explain that this is why teams "abandon the run" at times.



If running the ball 35 times a game or 50% of the plays truly led to winning games then every team would do this every game. But the fact is that this will not and does not work. If the run simply isn't there continuing to attempt to run will not lead to success. Quite the opposite, it will ensure failure.



Honestly, if you have never listened to this show it is well worth the cost of an XM/Sirius subscription. If you like your X's and O's, your one gaps and two gaps, 4-3's and man overs, your 12, 22, and 11 personnel groupings, then you would love it!



Also, check out Pat Kirwan's book, Take Your Eye Off the Ball: How to Watch Football by Knowing Where to Look.





I listen ,they are not the talking heads. Facts mostly. Love Sirius since day one . I would say more but I would be bragging . Ok I have stock in Sirius from day one, it took awhile , ups and downs but itís solid .


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Old 11-14-2019, 10:42 AM   #122
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
I see that you abandoned the whole premise with which I had the issue ... the implication that Brees and Payton were only passing the ball to pad Brees' personal stats. THAT is what I was calling asinine.

And by the time they truly abandoned the running game they were behind by multiple scores. The Falcons were stacking the box. The left side of the line could not function at all, for whatever reason. Thomas was the only player able to gain positive yards. Yes, they could have continued running the ball into the teeth of that defense knowing full well that each play would be doomed based upon the defensive alignment. Offensive playcalling is based upon the defensive look. Atlanta was selling out to take away the run and daring us to pass the ball knowing full well that our offensive line was having major issues protecting Brees with even the minimal rush.

I have heard fans call into Moving the Chains on NFL Radio on several occasions over the years with your very same argument claiming their coach stupidly abandoned the run. I gave you the reply that they always give the caller. You cannot continue to attempt to run the ball when the defense is overloading to take it away. It is futile.

I also see that you ignored the fact that Brees did not have all day to throw the ball as you claimed, but actually had almost no time to get rid of the ball on all but one occasion. Peeling out of the pocket like you suggest can work to a degree for teams like Seattle and Green Bay because they have far more mobile QB's like Wilson and Rodgers and far more competent WR's to get into the open. That is not Brees' game, nor is it even Bridgewater's game.
3-4 seconds is plenty of time to get the ball out, and again, when you see your line getting whooped you should probably adjust things to make sure that you're getting it out in that amount of time. or you know, you could just run the ball and give your o-line a break. you don't have to be a mobile quarterback to step out of the pocket to throw. that's just silly. some of drew's biggest moments are when he's gotten out of the pocket. if he all of a sudden can't move enough to do that then we have bigger problems than losing to atlanta, but i think, like you have done with all of your points, you're embellishing.

they ran the ball 11 times. only 9 times with their actual running backs. atlanta threw in some disguises but they were not stacking the box on every play. they were dropping into zone coverage for most of the game that's why the pass wasn't working. if one were to believe that the falcons just made it impossible for the saints to run, but at the same time also shut down the passing game, then the only conclusion you can draw is that atlanta is a totally dominant team over the saints. or, you could consider that when we run a balanced attack, like we did with our backup QB against much tougher defenses, we had better outcomes.

i'm not abandoning my point that i think sean and drew called/played a terrible game that was way too pass heavy and cost us a shot at the win, and yes i think part of it was that they thought coming into the game atlanta's secondary had their best CB out and generally haven't been good, so it was a great opportunity for brees to have a massive game akin to those of the 5k yard seasons. and it's not worth arguing over because neither of us have insight into what the gameplan was. i'm willing to admit that. but i present what i type here as opinion. you present your opinion as fact. have fun with that.
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Old 11-14-2019, 10:43 AM   #123
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by st thomas View Post
I listen ,they are not the talking heads. Facts mostly. Love Sirius since day one . I would say more but I would be bragging . Ok I have stock in Sirius from day one, it took awhile , ups and downs but itís solid .


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Cool! Then you have heard them talk about this very topic on multiple occasions, right? This topic comes up several times year and they give the exact same take.
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Old 11-14-2019, 10:49 AM   #124
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by yungbreesus View Post
3-4 seconds is plenty of time to get the ball out, and again, when you see your line getting whooped you should probably adjust things to make sure that you're getting it out in that amount of time. or you know, you could just run the ball and give your o-line a break. you don't have to be a mobile quarterback to step out of the pocket to throw. that's just silly. some of drew's biggest moments are when he's gotten out of the pocket. if he all of a sudden can't move enough to do that then we have bigger problems than losing to atlanta, but i think, like you have done with all of your points, you're embellishing.

they ran the ball 11 times. only 9 times with their actual running backs. atlanta threw in some disguises but they were not stacking the box on every play. they were dropping into zone coverage for most of the game that's why the pass wasn't working. if one were to believe that the falcons just made it impossible for the saints to run, but at the same time also shut down the passing game, then the only conclusion you can draw is that atlanta is a totally dominant team over the saints. or, you could consider that when we run a balanced attack, like we did with our backup QB against much tougher defenses, we had better outcomes.

i'm not abandoning my point that i think sean and drew called/played a terrible game that was way too pass heavy and cost us a shot at the win, and yes i think part of it was that they thought coming into the game atlanta's secondary had their best CB out and generally haven't been good, so it was a great opportunity for brees to have a massive game akin to those of the 5k yard seasons. and it's not worth arguing over because neither of us have insight into what the gameplan was. i'm willing to admit that. but i present what i type here as opinion. you present your opinion as fact. have fun with that.
Atlanta clearly saw that our offensive line had some major issues and they took advantage of those issues. Three to four seconds is not enough time to get the ball out, especially with rush in your face. Did you watch the video of all of those sacks. In only one of those did he have time to actually set his feet. He was being hit before he could even come out of his drop.
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Old 11-14-2019, 10:51 AM   #125
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
Cool! Then you have heard them talk about this very topic on multiple occasions, right? This topic comes up several times year and they give the exact same take.


AG love Pat heís one of the most educated football gods. He talks sense and his guest talk sense. No jabber I wish all BnG broís had the chance to Pipe in. Gil brant canít get enough of his knowledge


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Old 11-14-2019, 10:58 AM   #126
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by st thomas View Post
AG love Pat heís one of the most educated football gods. He talks sense and his guest talk sense. No jabber I wish all BnG broís had the chance to Pipe in. Gil brant canít get enough of his knowledge


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How about "Jumpshot", the Saints fan that calls in all the time? LOL
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Old 11-14-2019, 11:00 AM   #127
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
How about "Jumpshot", the Saints fan that calls in all the time? LOL


And the backbones of America the truckers that call in they know football


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Old 11-14-2019, 12:03 PM   #128
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
How about "Jumpshot", the Saints fan that calls in all the time? LOL


And JB


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Old 11-14-2019, 12:19 PM   #129
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
Sorry, dude, but this is asinine. If you seriously believe that Brees and/or Payton had any thoughts whatsoever about any personal stat in this scenario then you know nothing about the game of football. The Saints got down big when they were trying to run the ball on offense and the defense kept making drive extending mistakes. Going to the air was forced by the game situation and Atlanta's defense. This isn't fantasy football.

And as for the time holding the ball on the six sacks ... watch the video of all six sacks.

Sack 1: 4 sec
Sack 2: 4 sec
Sack 3: 4 sec
Sack 4: 6 sec
Sack 5: 3 sec
Sack 6: 3 sec

Every sack by the Falcons on Drew Brees | Week 10 - YouTube

Only ONE of those sacks came in over FOUR seconds. That 4th sack came on the sixth second and was with eight players in coverage.
How is trying to force dumb throws to your best players when a win is mathematically impossible asinine? What does that achieve other than injury or loosing the respect of your team mates? Even if they score the clock runs out.
There is a difference between competitiveness and ego. Payton and Brees showed the latter.
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Last edited by The Dude; 11-14-2019 at 12:32 PM..
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:41 PM   #130
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Re: Brees is done

Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
How is trying to force dumb throws to your best players when a win is mathematically impossible asinine? What does that achieve other than injury or loosing the respect of your team mates? Even if they score the clock runs out.
There is a difference between competitiveness and ego. Payton and Brees showed the latter.
Where are you getting this losing the respect of your teammates crap? If any player was ready to quit regardless of the score then they don't deserve to be on the roster. I would expect that every player respected the fact that Payton and Brees refused to quit. And as I pointed out earlier a fact to which you ignored, two of the playoff seeding tiebreakers are total points scored and total number of touchdowns scored. Every scoring opportunity is important.
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