An elevated understanding and objective discussion doesn't require a concession of standing or high-ground neutrality.

It is very easy to keep things civil; decide your goal, what tone you want to set and don't get pulled into the weeds. I am naturally inclined to address each of the concerns that you have in your reply but I am not interested in an itemized tug of war with you and I wont be pulled into one. Obviously you need to vent; a lot of other people around here do as well but no one wants to just listen.

What sets these boards apart from other Saints boards is our ability to have a thoughtful discussion instead of just pages of strung together comments.

We all believe in our own strength and intelligence, well put it to the test. Engage in intellectual conversation and do not deviate.

These players need to learn to listen to OTHERS.

I have one question for both of you. In 10 words or less, what is your specific end game/goal/want?

Oak, I can sum up my endgame on just about every issue with one word...

TRUTH

Let's talk about the truth.

A lot of people in this country grew up on the same street, listening to the same people, tell the same stories and are none the wiser that those were just stories. Some of those stories were about bad white men, some were about bad black men... Today they fight in the streets for their version of the truth.

I get your point 100% Danno but presenting fact doesn't just change belief. People tend to cling to beliefs and it takes more than one pass with facts to open our eyes does it?

It will take generations to change beliefs. The best way is to present the truth over and over again, and to challenge lies over and over again.

How do we teach men the value of listening over being heard?

I have not disagreed with anything that you or Danno have said and fully understand your points.

My abilities afford me the opportunity to sit in meetings with PHD Chemists, corporate executives and career engineers. My role is to listen, process and later provide feedback. My first observation is that I am the only one listening and I am not a decision maker.

I have one question for both of you. In 10 words or less, what is your specific end game/goal/want?

Without having a personal relationship with any of these men who are ranting about systemic racism, I can't teach them anything. I can only put the facts out there, hope someone reads it, and thinks about it long enough to figure things out.

It is up to each person to inform themselves. We can put the information out there - information that is readily available anywhere, to anyone who wants to know the truth - but we can't listen for them. These are guys who grew up with people telling them one thing, which happens to be founded on complete lies. And this is where that mentorship thing that you and I discussed the other day comes in. These guys need someone in their life that they trust to knock some sense into them.

In the meantime, I'm not going to stand for the preposterous accusation that WE are not listening. We've listened long enough. White conservatives have allowed themselves to be talked down into feeling guilty for something they have nothing to do with, for far too long. I'm not going to play that game. This isn't the time for playing nice with people who are filled with hate. I'm not talking about black people, as a whole. I'm talking about liberals of any color.

There are black people who want to be left alone, who are having their homes and businesses destroyed by both black and white people who presume to speak for ALL black people. Those are the people I feel for. They need our prayers and any help we can provide.

What is my end game? Getting people to look in the mirror.

You speak so well that I understood all of that the first time you said it. I replied "I have not disagreed with anything that you or Danno have said and fully understand your points."

If you want to draw a hard line with people that obviously struggle with articulation, then do so.

You aren't listening to them, you didn't listen to me the first time that i said I understood you, and I expect another 4-6 paragraphs waiting for me in the morning saying the same thing but worded differently.

The only thing I ever asked was for us to not let what is going on outside cause destruction inside. You want to argue and be caustic... go at it. I wont get in your angry way.

Oak, I get your sentiments. No one wants to devolve everything into an argument. Well, some people only want that, but they are in the minority. The thing is, when you say "no one wants to just listen", I only see that coming from one side. And I trust you know which side I'm referring to.

We've been listening to this "message" for decades. Oak, there IS no message. Some people will never be satisfied until we bow completely to political correctness and pay reparations for things that have nothing to do with any white or black person alive today. There is nothing to listen to.

George Floyd was murdered. We can all agree on that. These kinds of incidents involving white cops killing black people is extremely rare, but ALWAYS cherry picked against overwhelming criminal statistics coming from the black community. These statistics have been shared, not maliciously, but in a matter of fact way. No one "listens". They don't care. And by "they" I am talking about these militant black AND white liberals.

There are plenty of white and black people who get along just fine. But when the mob comes in and starts attacking the rest of us for not bending the knee to the made up narrative of "systemic racism" we need to be able to speak our minds. If that floods into these boards, so be it.

If you want us to lead an example for these football players, the example I refuse to set is to sit back and allow this rhetoric to fly in my face because I don't want to "offend" anyone, or cause a ripple in our little internet utopia. I'm sorry, but there are more important things than football and trying to hold on for dear life to fandom. I agree with remaining civil. I think, with the exception of just a couple of people, we manage to do that just fine.

These players need to learn to listen to OTHERS. They always want us poor little peasants to listen to them and honor their "greatness". I can't speak for you, but I've had enough. I can speak my mind without senseless bashing. I've done it for a long time, and I'll continue to do it. I wish people WOULD listen, but like Danno said, that needs to go both ways. I'm tired of trying to reason with people, being as patient as I can be, showing FACTS that refute the narrative, and getting ear muffs on the other end, only to be told I am the one who needs to listen.

We're not going to make "progress" until people quit bending over to political correctness, or just trying to avoid the issue for the sake of being friends. If a person is incapable of listening to your point of view without disowning you, then you don't need their friendship.

That's all I'm going to say about it, for now.