Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain

SaintFanInATLHELL · 09-16-2020, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

So..... to simplify your logic. Having a uniform and getting on the field = to being a BIG part of an offense?

We should have just kept Garrett Hartley with all his misses... in every FG/Kickoff snap. Productivity is irrelevant.

I agree that productivity is relevant. I also agree that if a player is being unproductive, then they wouldn't be on the field.

Smith is on the field for a significant percentage of offensive plays. Why would the offensive brain trust continue to run him out on the field if they didn't think he was doing his job? They watch the tapes every week. They are in practice every day. They have every opportunity to determine that Tre'Quan shouldn't be out there. Yet he is.

One enlightening story to me is Tre's historic TD catch from Brees. It was pointed out that his route isn't normally targeted on that play. The ball simply isn't designed to go there. So, I figure there must be other plays that are like that in the Saints offense, and that even if Smith doesn't get a target, he's doing his job out there.

If Tre is an unproductive bad player, then why is out on the field?

SFIAH

AsylumGuido · 09-16-2020, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Commitment to the run game never hurts either.

Unless that "commitment" bring the entire offense to screeching halt. The success of Payton's offense has always been the ability of the passing game to set up the run and to act as an extension of the run. This morning on Airing it Out on NFL Radio Charlie Weis said that with Thomas out you can expect the Raiders to load the box and force the Saints to go to the air. He also said that Brees and Payton are more than capable to be able spread it around. Hopefully they can be successful enough to give the running game a chance to be relevant as the game progresses.

gosaints1 · 09-16-2020, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

The three week IR designation only applies to players testing positive for COVID. All other injuries follow the standard rules. We're just going to have to be a player short on our active roster. At least we can freely activate two players from the practice squad on game days. But, that is limited to twice per player for the season.

None of that is correct, as below:

“The 2020-only rules, which become effective after 4:00 p.m. ET on Sunday, September 6, will allow the team to remove any player with a football or non-football injury from the roster for three weeks. After three weeks, the player will be eligible to return to practice. Once he returns to practice, the team will have 21 days to place him back on the active roster.

This applies to all injuries, football or non-football.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ovid-19-rules/

AsylumGuido · 09-16-2020, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

None of that is correct, as below:

“The 2020-only rules, which become effective after 4:00 p.m. ET on Sunday, September 6, will allow the team to remove any player with a football or non-football injury from the roster for three weeks. After three weeks, the player will be eligible to return to practice. Once he returns to practice, the team will have 21 days to place him back on the active roster.

This applies to all injuries, football or non-football.”

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ovid-19-rules/

That has to have been updated, then. I hope that's accurate. The source I saw was from August and specifically said COVID only for the three week IR.

Edit: Wait, this is from a July 18th article. Now I'm really confused. I need to do some more digging. I know they were changing these rules on almost a weekly basis prior to the start of the season.

AsylumGuido · 09-16-2020, 12:34 PM

Okay, here's the latest from September 9th ...

COVID-19 rule: The NFL has instituted a reserve/COVID-19 list for 2020, which is for players who either test positive for the coronavirus or have been potentially exposed to someone who has had it. A player who tests positive for COVID-19 will be eligible for placement on this list whether he is symptomatic or not. The league will administer COVID-19 tests to players and other essential employees every day of the regular season except game day.

To replace that player during the week, the team is allowed to make any move it wants: sign a free agent, sign a player from its or another team's practice squad or elevate a player from its own practice squad as outlined above.

COVID-19 rule: If a team learns after 4 p.m. ET on the day before a game that a player has to be placed on the reserve/COVID-19 list, either because of a positive diagnosis or need for preventative quarantine, that team may elevate a player from its practice squad to replace that player at any time up to 90 minutes before scheduled kickoff. Any elevation under this rule would not count as one of the two elevations we referenced at the end of our "expanded rosters" section above.

Injured reserve

COVID-19 rule: In 2020, a player going on injured reserve is allowed to return after missing only three weeks, and teams may return an unlimited number of players from injured reserve throughout the year. In a normal year, a player can't return from injured reserve unless he has missed at least six weeks' worth of practice and eight weeks' worth of games, and teams are limited to two players per year that they can return from injured reserve.

This year, a player on injured reserve can return to practice after three weeks. Once a team activates a player from injured reserve, it has 21 days to return him to the active roster. Reserve/COVID-19 is separate than injured reserve. Players on that list may return whenever they clear the testing protocol.

----------------------------------------------

So, yes, it does now look like he can be placed on that short-term IR unless they expect him back earlier.

gosaints1 · 09-16-2020, 12:39 PM

Dig please, the media members I know of (local and national) are using the belief of a three week IR, one for football injuries (IR/F) and one for non-football injuries (IR/NF). They (relatedly me also), lol, could be wrong. It’s just what my current understanding is wrt 2020-only IR.

https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2020...-ankle-injury/

TheOak · 09-17-2020, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL

I agree that productivity is relevant. I also agree that if a player is being unproductive, then they wouldn't be on the field.

Smith is on the field for a significant percentage of offensive plays. Why would the offensive brain trust continue to run him out on the field if they didn't think he was doing his job? They watch the tapes every week. They are in practice every day. They have every opportunity to determine that Tre'Quan shouldn't be out there. Yet he is.

One enlightening story to me is Tre's historic TD catch from Brees. It was pointed out that his route isn't normally targeted on that play. The ball simply isn't designed to go there. So, I figure there must be other plays that are like that in the Saints offense, and that even if Smith doesn't get a target, he's doing his job out there.

If Tre is an unproductive bad player, then why is out on the field?

SFIAH

You are trying to rationalize your position rather than recognize that everything you describe about Smith is also true about nearly all the WR in the league. A QB goes through progressions and if Smith was the only guy open that's where the ball went.

A receivers job is to run his route or block, if he is running his route his job is also to get open and catch what is thrown at him. Its simple yet very difficult in a league of professionals. If Smith did that consistently MT wouldn't have the lions share of the catches. No ones job is to put on a uniform and run around the field as some sort of $900k/year decoy receiver.

MT gets open and catches.
TS can catch but cant get open.
Ginn was able to get open because of his speed but couldn't catch for sh1t.

You keep asking why he is on the field.. in short it is because he is serviceable and had a contract but he isn't taking wear and tare off MT which is what he should be doing.

.... When a WR only has 3 more targets and has fewer catches than a backup QB he is not doing his job reliably. Getting open and catching the ball.

Let me put it a different way. Every time Drew has to throw a pass away, none of our receivers did their jobs. If they all did their jobs every play we wouldn't need a running game.

AsylumGuido · 09-17-2020, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

You are trying to rationalize your position rather than recognize that everything you describe about Smith is also true about nearly all the WR in the league. A QB goes through progressions and if Smith was the only guy open that's where the ball went.

A receivers job is to run his route or block, if he is running his route his job is also to get open and catch what is thrown at him. Its simple yet very difficult in a league of professionals. If Smith did that consistently MT wouldn't have the lions share of the catches. No ones job is to put on a uniform and run around the field as some sort of $900k/year decoy receiver.

MT gets open and catches.
TS can catch but cant get open.
Ginn was able to get open because of his speed but couldn't catch for sh1t.

You keep asking why he is on the field.. in short it is because he is serviceable and had a contract but he isn't taking wear and tare off MT which is what he should be doing.

.... When a WR only has 3 more targets and has fewer catches than a backup QB he is not doing his job reliably. Getting open and catching the ball.

Let me put it a different way. Every time Drew has to throw a pass away, none of our receivers did their jobs. If they all did their jobs every play we wouldn't need a running game.

You have to consider that there is a progression to a play, as you yourself pointed out. There is a first, second, third, etc. option built into a play. Brees will throw the ball to the first open receiver in that progression. I would expect that Thomas would usually be the first option. If he is open, which he almost always is, then the ball will come his way. The other options could be open, as well, yet never see the ball. There are, of course, plays designed for others to be the primary option. If they are successful that's when they see the ball on a team with Thomas as the usual first option.

Smith could be open 90% of the time and only see the ball three times a game if Sanders, Cook, Kamara, etc. are earlier options in the designed play.

A QB seldom looks for the "most open" receiver unless it is a totally blown coverage.

With Thomas out some of these other usually open receivers are going to have their numbers rise substantially.

K Major · 09-17-2020, 08:09 AM

Who steps up in the absence of Michael Thomas? - YouTube

Ice up Michael.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 09-17-2020, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

You have to consider that there is a progression to a play, as you yourself pointed out. There is a first, second, third, etc. option built into a play. Brees will throw the ball to the first open receiver in that progression. I would expect that Thomas would usually be the first option. If he is open, which he almost always is, then the ball will come his way. The other options could be open, as well, yet never see the ball. There are, of course, plays designed for others to be the primary option. If they are successful that's when they see the ball on a team with Thomas as the usual first option.

Smith could be open 90% of the time and only see the ball three times a game if Sanders, Cook, Kamara, etc. are earlier options in the designed play.

A QB seldom looks for the "most open" receiver unless it is a totally blown coverage.

With Thomas out some of these other usually open receivers are going to have their numbers rise substantially.

Exactly this. You can see this with Brees in practice. When he takes a rep, he passes the ball then continues his progression without the ball in his hand. Those represent the other options available if his first or second read isn't open.

One stat that is often discussed with Brees is how little time he keeps the ball in his hands. Generally 2.5 seconds or less. If Smith is the 3rd or 4th read on a play, Brees isn't going to hold the ball long enough to get to that read. With 180 targets last year, MT is generally the first read. Cook the 2nd. The back is the outlet. There simply are not a lot of targets left after that.

Now is Smith an All-Pro? Not by any stretch. All I'm saying is that the offensive staff keeps him out there because he's doing the job they are asking him to do. Note that the targets he does get are generally in the red zone, and that he often scores with them.

We will see now as he's moving up the ladder at least one rung. Let's see what he does with the opportunity.

SFIAH

09-16-2020, 11:58 AM	#51
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Originally Posted by TheOak So..... to simplify your logic. Having a uniform and getting on the field = to being a BIG part of an offense? We should have just kept Garrett Hartley with all his misses... in every FG/Kickoff snap. Productivity is irrelevant. I agree that productivity is relevant. I also agree that if a player is being unproductive, then they wouldn't be on the field. Smith is on the field for a significant percentage of offensive plays. Why would the offensive brain trust continue to run him out on the field if they didn't think he was doing his job? They watch the tapes every week. They are in practice every day. They have every opportunity to determine that Tre'Quan shouldn't be out there. Yet he is. One enlightening story to me is Tre's historic TD catch from Brees. It was pointed out that his route isn't normally targeted on that play. The ball simply isn't designed to go there. So, I figure there must be other plays that are like that in the Saints offense, and that even if Smith doesn't get a target, he's doing his job out there. If Tre is an unproductive bad player, then why is out on the field? SFIAH
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.

09-16-2020, 12:09 PM	#52
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,045	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Originally Posted by K Major Commitment to the run game never hurts either. Unless that "commitment" bring the entire offense to screeching halt. The success of Payton's offense has always been the ability of the passing game to set up the run and to act as an extension of the run. This morning on Airing it Out on NFL Radio Charlie Weis said that with Thomas out you can expect the Raiders to load the box and force the Saints to go to the air. He also said that Brees and Payton are more than capable to be able spread it around. Hopefully they can be successful enough to give the running game a chance to be relevant as the game progresses.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

09-16-2020, 12:20 PM	#53
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Originally Posted by AsylumGuido The three week IR designation only applies to players testing positive for COVID. All other injuries follow the standard rules. We're just going to have to be a player short on our active roster. At least we can freely activate two players from the practice squad on game days. But, that is limited to twice per player for the season. None of that is correct, as below: “The 2020-only rules, which become effective after 4:00 p.m. ET on Sunday, September 6, will allow the team to remove any player with a football or non-football injury from the roster for three weeks. After three weeks, the player will be eligible to return to practice. Once he returns to practice, the team will have 21 days to place him back on the active roster. This applies to all injuries, football or non-football.” https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ovid-19-rules/ The Dude and FinSaint like this.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

09-16-2020, 12:26 PM	#54
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,045	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Originally Posted by gosaints1 None of that is correct, as below: “The 2020-only rules, which become effective after 4:00 p.m. ET on Sunday, September 6, will allow the team to remove any player with a football or non-football injury from the roster for three weeks. After three weeks, the player will be eligible to return to practice. Once he returns to practice, the team will have 21 days to place him back on the active roster. This applies to all injuries, football or non-football.” https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ovid-19-rules/ That has to have been updated, then. I hope that's accurate. The source I saw was from August and specifically said COVID only for the three week IR. Edit: Wait, this is from a July 18th article. Now I'm really confused. I need to do some more digging. I know they were changing these rules on almost a weekly basis prior to the start of the season. gosaints1 likes this.

09-16-2020, 12:34 PM	#55
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,045	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Okay, here's the latest from September 9th ... COVID-19 rule: The NFL has instituted a reserve/COVID-19 list for 2020, which is for players who either test positive for the coronavirus or have been potentially exposed to someone who has had it. A player who tests positive for COVID-19 will be eligible for placement on this list whether he is symptomatic or not. The league will administer COVID-19 tests to players and other essential employees every day of the regular season except game day. To replace that player during the week, the team is allowed to make any move it wants: sign a free agent, sign a player from its or another team's practice squad or elevate a player from its own practice squad as outlined above. COVID-19 rule: If a team learns after 4 p.m. ET on the day before a game that a player has to be placed on the reserve/COVID-19 list, either because of a positive diagnosis or need for preventative quarantine, that team may elevate a player from its practice squad to replace that player at any time up to 90 minutes before scheduled kickoff. Any elevation under this rule would not count as one of the two elevations we referenced at the end of our "expanded rosters" section above. Injured reserve COVID-19 rule: In 2020, a player going on injured reserve is allowed to return after missing only three weeks, and teams may return an unlimited number of players from injured reserve throughout the year. In a normal year, a player can't return from injured reserve unless he has missed at least six weeks' worth of practice and eight weeks' worth of games, and teams are limited to two players per year that they can return from injured reserve. This year, a player on injured reserve can return to practice after three weeks. Once a team activates a player from injured reserve, it has 21 days to return him to the active roster. Reserve/COVID-19 is separate than injured reserve. Players on that list may return whenever they clear the testing protocol. ---------------------------------------------- So, yes, it does now look like he can be placed on that short-term IR unless they expect him back earlier. gosaints1 likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

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09-16-2020, 12:39 PM	#56
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Dig please, the media members I know of (local and national) are using the belief of a three week IR, one for football injuries (IR/F) and one for non-football injuries (IR/NF). They (relatedly me also), lol, could be wrong. It’s just what my current understanding is wrt 2020-only IR. https://saintswire.usatoday.com/2020...-ankle-injury/
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

09-17-2020, 04:47 AM	#57
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,019	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Originally Posted by SaintFanInATLHELL I agree that productivity is relevant. I also agree that if a player is being unproductive, then they wouldn't be on the field. Smith is on the field for a significant percentage of offensive plays. Why would the offensive brain trust continue to run him out on the field if they didn't think he was doing his job? They watch the tapes every week. They are in practice every day. They have every opportunity to determine that Tre'Quan shouldn't be out there. Yet he is. One enlightening story to me is Tre's historic TD catch from Brees. It was pointed out that his route isn't normally targeted on that play. The ball simply isn't designed to go there. So, I figure there must be other plays that are like that in the Saints offense, and that even if Smith doesn't get a target, he's doing his job out there. If Tre is an unproductive bad player, then why is out on the field? SFIAH You are trying to rationalize your position rather than recognize that everything you describe about Smith is also true about nearly all the WR in the league. A QB goes through progressions and if Smith was the only guy open that's where the ball went. A receivers job is to run his route or block, if he is running his route his job is also to get open and catch what is thrown at him. Its simple yet very difficult in a league of professionals. If Smith did that consistently MT wouldn't have the lions share of the catches. No ones job is to put on a uniform and run around the field as some sort of $900k/year decoy receiver. MT gets open and catches. TS can catch but cant get open. Ginn was able to get open because of his speed but couldn't catch for sh1t. You keep asking why he is on the field.. in short it is because he is serviceable and had a contract but he isn't taking wear and tare off MT which is what he should be doing. .... When a WR only has 3 more targets and has fewer catches than a backup QB he is not doing his job reliably. Getting open and catching the ball. Let me put it a different way. Every time Drew has to throw a pass away, none of our receivers did their jobs. If they all did their jobs every play we wouldn't need a running game.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

09-17-2020, 07:43 AM	#58
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,045	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Originally Posted by TheOak You are trying to rationalize your position rather than recognize that everything you describe about Smith is also true about nearly all the WR in the league. A QB goes through progressions and if Smith was the only guy open that's where the ball went. A receivers job is to run his route or block, if he is running his route his job is also to get open and catch what is thrown at him. Its simple yet very difficult in a league of professionals. If Smith did that consistently MT wouldn't have the lions share of the catches. No ones job is to put on a uniform and run around the field as some sort of $900k/year decoy receiver. MT gets open and catches. TS can catch but cant get open. Ginn was able to get open because of his speed but couldn't catch for sh1t. You keep asking why he is on the field.. in short it is because he is serviceable and had a contract but he isn't taking wear and tare off MT which is what he should be doing. .... When a WR only has 3 more targets and has fewer catches than a backup QB he is not doing his job reliably. Getting open and catching the ball. Let me put it a different way. Every time Drew has to throw a pass away, none of our receivers did their jobs. If they all did their jobs every play we wouldn't need a running game. You have to consider that there is a progression to a play, as you yourself pointed out. There is a first, second, third, etc. option built into a play. Brees will throw the ball to the first open receiver in that progression. I would expect that Thomas would usually be the first option. If he is open, which he almost always is, then the ball will come his way. The other options could be open, as well, yet never see the ball. There are, of course, plays designed for others to be the primary option. If they are successful that's when they see the ball on a team with Thomas as the usual first option. Smith could be open 90% of the time and only see the ball three times a game if Sanders, Cook, Kamara, etc. are earlier options in the designed play. A QB seldom looks for the "most open" receiver unless it is a totally blown coverage. With Thomas out some of these other usually open receivers are going to have their numbers rise substantially. SaintFanInATLHELL likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

09-17-2020, 09:14 AM	#60
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	Re: Michael Thomas has a High Ankle Sprain Originally Posted by AsylumGuido You have to consider that there is a progression to a play, as you yourself pointed out. There is a first, second, third, etc. option built into a play. Brees will throw the ball to the first open receiver in that progression. I would expect that Thomas would usually be the first option. If he is open, which he almost always is, then the ball will come his way. The other options could be open, as well, yet never see the ball. There are, of course, plays designed for others to be the primary option. If they are successful that's when they see the ball on a team with Thomas as the usual first option. Smith could be open 90% of the time and only see the ball three times a game if Sanders, Cook, Kamara, etc. are earlier options in the designed play. A QB seldom looks for the "most open" receiver unless it is a totally blown coverage. With Thomas out some of these other usually open receivers are going to have their numbers rise substantially. Exactly this. You can see this with Brees in practice. When he takes a rep, he passes the ball then continues his progression without the ball in his hand. Those represent the other options available if his first or second read isn't open. One stat that is often discussed with Brees is how little time he keeps the ball in his hands. Generally 2.5 seconds or less. If Smith is the 3rd or 4th read on a play, Brees isn't going to hold the ball long enough to get to that read. With 180 targets last year, MT is generally the first read. Cook the 2nd. The back is the outlet. There simply are not a lot of targets left after that. Now is Smith an All-Pro? Not by any stretch. All I'm saying is that the offensive staff keeps him out there because he's doing the job they are asking him to do. Note that the targets he does get are generally in the red zone, and that he often scores with them. We will see now as he's moving up the ladder at least one rung. Let's see what he does with the opportunity. SFIAH AsylumGuido likes this.
	Super Bowl Championships: New Orleans Saints:1, Carolina:0, Atlanta Chokers: STILL ZERO Only Atlanta choked in an unchokable situation... Life is definitely good.