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blake6900 11-23-2003 04:31 PM

You make me laugh...too bad you\'re right about Brooks.

saintfan 11-23-2003 04:33 PM

Gatorman, your sarcasm is recognized. Another \"less than hall of fame\" effort from Brooks. Does that make you happy? It must, since you are one of a particular minority that seem to think Brooks has to win these football games on his own. Funny. Yeah, you\'re funny.

Here\'s a question for ya Gator. Would the word \"Pourous\" be a good one to use when describing the Saints Defense? If I were to say, \"Jeesh, in spite of the slow start again this week, had the Saints defense been able to stop the Eagles AT ALL we would have had a chance to win\" would I be accurate?

If I were to say, \"Boy, that blocked kick that would have gotten us within 6 sure hurt the team\" would I be in agreement with you or otherwise?

Why didn\'t we challenge on the goal line?

I\'d like to take the oppurtunity to welcome all the Brooks bashers to place the game squarely on his shoulders (and display their ignorance and bias) yet again. You people just REFUSE to watch the whole game.

Then again, at least a few of you are either in or from Mississippi. That explains a LOT!


You never really wanted on the bandwagon anyway Gator. Quite frankly I\'d prefer it if you stayed off....permanantly this time.

[Edited on 23/11/2003 by saintfan]

saintfan 11-23-2003 04:48 PM

The issue Gatorman is that Brooks shouldn\'t have to play flawlessly for this team to win. When he doesn\'t play flawlessly you and others scream for his head. Every loss, in the \"bashers\'\" opions is purlely the fault of Brooks. That just isn\'t true, and the short-sightedness of these posts (and those that post \'em) is becoming laughable. Some of us are either on the bandwagon or off. Others of you are on, and then off, and then on again, and that is laughable too.

Perhaps you can explain, in datail, unlike the norm, why the Saints lost the game to the Eagles remembering to take into account ALL the players on BOTH sides of the ball before you point to one player as the culprit. I\'d really be interested to read your assesment, because I\'m honestly not sure you can do it. Surprise me.

saintfan 11-23-2003 04:59 PM


Just wanted some Brook\'s lovers to spread optimism after this loss. What the word on the bandwagon.....Tickets still available?
Didn\'t you start this thread?

saintfan 11-23-2003 05:07 PM

It\'s your History Gatorman. You can fool with Rookies with 35 posts and maybe the new moderator, but I\'ve been around a while. I know the deal.

WhoDat 11-23-2003 06:18 PM


The issue Gatorman is that Brooks shouldn\'t have to play flawlessly for this team to win. When he doesn\'t play flawlessly you and others scream for his head. Every loss, in the \"bashers\'\" opions is purlely the fault of Brooks. That just isn\'t true, and the short-sightedness of these posts (and those that post \'em) is becoming laughable


Points off of Brooks\' fumbles: 14.
Points taken OFF of the Saints board as a result of Brooks\' fumbles: 7.
Final Score: 33-20.
Add 7 to the Saints score, subtract 14 from Philly\'s, and your final is: 27-19 SAINTS.

You\'re right, Brooks had nothing to do with this loss. Yeah, the defense played poorly. The mistakes are terrible. The entire team played badly. But if I had to pick one single player who played the worst, it would be Aaron Brooks. Can you pick a single player on our team that played worse than Brooks Saintfan?

Your defense of Brooks is starting to sound like those Bud commercials. \"So your four fumbles didn\'t have an impact on the game?\"

\"Not if those other guys had jumped on the ball! Again, Leon can\'t do everything.\"

I guess Brooks\' fumbles wouldn\'t have mattered if Deuce had jumped on the ball huh?

saintz08 11-23-2003 09:15 PM

Can you pick a single player on our team that played worse than Brooks Saintfan?

I have to go with Rasby , Whodat .

Rasby flat out stunk and cost the Saints some points and field position .

Brooks gets the nod at number 2 .

subguy 11-23-2003 09:19 PM

The team is imploding. What about the intangibles? What about the abilty to lead? What about smiling on the sidelines in 4th qtr when the Colts were gang raping us? What about the post interception grinning. These are not signs of a leader ar maturity. To simply state ones opinion does not mean you are a basher it means you have stated your opinion. My opinion is Brooks is not the man to deliver us to the promise land.

BillyC 11-23-2003 10:01 PM

Gator -- Obviously everyone doesn\'t share the same opinions. You don\'t like some of my optimistic posts and I don\'t like some of your negitive posts. It\'s nothing personal. It really used to bother me when members bashed this team. Especially those that wrote this team off after 5-games. I used to think that made them sorry fans. I don\'t think that now. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs.


PS: Why don\'t you people tell whodat or subguy the same thing? It figures
I call WhoDat out ALL the time and he calls me out all the time. Look Gator, you are a long time member on here and I like you. I don\'t agree with you all the time and I even call you out on some things but don\'t take it personally. It\'s not meant to be that way. Look dude, I know you are a big time Saints fan and I know you always will be. This board has changed a lot and now we have to be SO sensetive to everyone\'s feelings. I really miss the days when everyone didn\'t take things so personally on here. Maybe all the personal attacks needed to go, but now I think we are all a little too concerned about hurting someone\'s feelings.

Hell, I\'m wrong many times on here and I don\'t mind anyone telling me I\'m wrong. I welcome someone telling me I\'m wrong and then backing it up. You know Gator, I miss the old days when we could agure and we all knew in the end that we would go back to being friends at the end of a heated debate. I don\'t like all of this sensetive stuff. Just don\'t take anything I say to heart.

[Edited on 24/11/2003 by BillyC]

WhoDat 11-23-2003 10:05 PM

Don\'t kid yourself Gator - why do you think I had to invent Tang? I\'m labeled a bandwagon guy just like you. I\'ve gotten it from the Sunshine Club since preseason when I predicted an 8-8 or 7-9 season. In fact, I think you blasted me then too. I can\'t say I saw all these problems, but I can say that I didn\'t see a whole lot of solutions. In any case, I\'ll hear it again next season unless I predict 12-4 and admit that Haslett is a great coach and AB is the only reason that the Saints ever win a game.

BillyC 11-23-2003 10:21 PM

All I know is if the Saints don\'t make the playoffs someone has got to be held accountable. That somebody has got to be Haslett. I\'m not saying to fire Haslett, but some changes are going to have to be made in some areas like talent evaluttion. I don\'t think you can draft for the long term future anymore. The top 2 draft choices have to produce in their first year these days. Free agent production is critical to a team in their first year. But the most important things is that a coach has to get the players to play disciplined. Hasett got these players and he can\'t just get a free pass here. Now, I\'m not gonna go calling for him to get fired, because I want him back. But, I do want a top flight GM.

[Edited on 24/11/2003 by BillyC]

SaintsVet 11-23-2003 10:25 PM

It is hard for me to read these inane posts from fans who have not been watching this team from the beginning. The most entertaining item I have read is trying to judge someone\'s knowledge or interest by the amount of posts they have made. The fact that anyone can make thousands of posts to any board has to indicate the lack of a productive life. Anyhow, the only reason I am making this virgin post is to make sure that real Saints fans know that AB is not a quarterback that can take us to the Super Bowl. The only reason he is playing is because we have no real alternative. He is obviously not an NFL caliber QB and it pains me to see the other players having to go to battle with him each week. Also, Haslett and Brooks will be on the same bus out of town after the season. :casstet:

BillyC 11-23-2003 10:27 PM


It is hard for me to read these inane posts
Me too. Like the one you just made :casstet:

[Edited on 24/11/2003 by BillyC]

SaintsVet 11-23-2003 10:36 PM

Billy C. \'s circular logic

Someone must be accountable.
It must be Haslett.
He does not know talent.
High draft choices must have impact.
Haslett\'s team needs discipline.
However, I want Haslett back.
Fire the GM.

Free advice from Billy C., worth just about what you paid for it.


WhoDat 11-23-2003 10:36 PM

Wow Billy, you just said almost exactly what I said last off-season. You\'re right. This past off-season I was screaming about a need to get impact players in free agency and the draft. This team isn\'t going to upgrade a lot in the overall talent. You can\'t in this NFL. But they can get a couple of key players that are game-changers. Still, this will likely be another offseason of second-rate players that we hope are \"diamonds in the rough\".

This is basically why I want Haslett gone. Aside from the fact that this team still makes a ridiculous numbers of mental mistakes, and the players consistently underacheive (that\'s the head coach\'s fault), despite their ability to play a full anything - game, season, what-have-you, the worst thing about Haslett may be that he is in essence the GM.

Hear me out. Loomis is a numbers guy. We all know that. He may put us in a good financial position, which is important, but he can\'t evaluate talent. That means that the personnel decisions are made by Haslett. I doubt that you\'ll get a different GM without a different head coach. The same is true for the coordinators, and most of the personnel.

Honestly, when I look at this team, I STILL think we are three or four players away. A great LB and CB. A Safety, maybe WR or TE... QB (hehehe). Bottom line is, we\'ve got talent. We do. The problem is discipline, mental mistakes, and a desire to win. Haslett seems unable to change those problems over the last THREE seasons. That\'s why I want him gone. I don\'t want to squander this talent. Injuries have certainly hurt us this season, I won\'t argue that. But they may have cost us a game or two. Mental mistakes have cost us a LOT more. Underacheiving play, poor execution, bad play calling. That hurts us MUCH more. And that\'s all on Haslett. Billy - you want to see change, I suggest you start hoping for a new coach. Sorry man, that\'s just my opinion, but I can\'t see much of a chance for this team with Haslett at the helm. Hopefully he\'ll prove me wrong, but I doubt it.

BrooksMustGo 11-23-2003 10:43 PM

Welcome aboard Vet, good to see someone who gives as good as they get from Billy.

I almost think that maybe a pre-emptive flame from Billy should be part of every new members registration.

At any rate, would it be wrong to hope for an impact QB next season? ;)

WhoDat 11-23-2003 10:51 PM

Wrong? No. Futile? Yes. Unless, by some miracle, Haslett is canned in December and the Saints have a shot to deal in the offseason, but I wouldn\'t count on that.

SaintsVet 11-23-2003 11:05 PM

Here you go:

1. There is little or nothing to be gained by firing your head coach in the middle of the season.

2. Haz lost most of his cover when GM Mueller got canned, he was the talent guy, little brother has not done bad, but missed poorly on some key draft choices.

3. Haslett basically staked his job on AB\'s success this year, though he has had some better options, in my opinion, we all remember Jake Delhomme. But remember, Benson\'s fiscal restraint did not allow both, many teams would have. Just hearing Jake talk, he would have loved to play close to a bowl of authentic gumbo.

4. Loomis does not have the relationship with Haz like Mueller did, he should get a chance to get his own guy.

5. I would like to think that Stoops would go NFL, but it would be hard for him to leave Oklahoma, but I think quality coaches are available.

6. The good news is that we are not too far away, a quality QB this year and we would be 8-3 or 7-4, a new defensive coordinator and an LB or 2 and we are division champs.

SaintsVet 11-23-2003 11:24 PM

Parcells!!!!!!!! Absolutely, the talent level in the NFL is amazingly close, therefore, \"Any Given Sunday\" Bears over Broncos today? Coaching is truly what makes the average teams good and the good teams great........That being said, the coach must be given decent talent........that is why what Parcells has done is truly remarkable.....and guys like Cowher, Reeves, and Fassell need better talent. :mad2:

BrooksMustGo 11-23-2003 11:32 PM


I\'ve always thought you were pretty objective. As objective as any fan can be I suppose.

Call it like you see it, I\'ve even learned from Billy that way. I thought the whole idea with this forum was dialogue.

SaintsVet 11-23-2003 11:32 PM

Gatorman, not only do I think your posts are relatively objective, most importantly, you are dead on. Any casual observer of this team would think that the main problem is at QB, all intense fans of this team absolutely :exclam: KNOW where the problem is.

WhoDat 11-23-2003 11:57 PM

Gator, I never called you negative. A cheap-a$$ maybe. ;) I will also say that you shouldn\'t take to heart much of what Saintfan has to say on the Brooks argument. He\'s been a staunch supporter of Brooks since he got hurt last year and Haslett refused to sit him (maybe before). The man\'s argument never changes. He ignores any miscues by Brooks and then shifts blame to every other position on the field. Then he tells you that you clearly have some personal vendetta or must be drinking something to see it that way. At some point he usually calls you short sighted or old and tired. If you get him off of the Brooks debate he\'s generally a good guy with good observations. Of course, he rarely comes off the bench unless it is to protect his precious Brooks, but...

Don\'t sweat it hombre. Just take some time to cool off and come back later.

That being said, I think some fans of this board take it too far with Brooks. I won\'t for a second pretend to be a big supporter of the guy, but c\'mon. Some of you... I mean... we\'d be 8-3 if it weren\'t for Brooks. That is ridiculous, and I understand when Billy and Saintfan destroy posters that post that kind of foolishness.

It is hard to claim that AB is much worse than fourth all-time on the lists of Saints QBs, and realistically, he\'s more like second. Other than Archie, he is clearly the most talented. The frustration here is two-fold. One, Hebert, Everett, and so on, never got to play with this kind of surrounding talent. Two, AB does have the potential to be great, but he\'s not delivering. Honestly guys, some other Saints QBs could have been playing their best football and not reaching Brooks\' level as an underacheiver, so let\'s all just chill.

The man makes mental mistakes that cost us games. So does Brett Favre. He also makes some great plays that win games. I would like to see another QB come in here and challenge him for the starting spot (given a fair shot of course), but I\'m also not going to tell you that AB is garbage and that we should cut him or trade him away for a fifth round pick or that Bouman would have this team 8-3. That\'s just ridiculous.

SaintsFan087 11-24-2003 02:29 AM

Alright you people, do you know absolutely nothing about football ? know and am very good friends with alot of the Saints Players, and that includes ones on the defense that you are knocking so hardly. If you saw that blocked extra point, then I guess it would be safe for me to assume that you have eyes and can see and understand the game of football enough to know that our DEFENSE has won 3 of our last games that we won. Aaron almost cost us the game last week with 3INTs, 2 of which were thrown DIRECTLY at Falcons. And another thing, I have met Brooks on many occassions, I like him, but I also know that HE alone lost that game for us today. Others could have played better but Brooks fumbled on the 1yd line and again on the 18yd line!! That\'s 14pts that he cost us alone. Add 14 to 20 and you get a final score of 34-33 A WIN. The defense has been kicking some good southern @ss so don\'t even try and knock them. Which ever one of you said Rasby played worse than Brooks today, please do me a favor and get your eyes checked. Nobody could do worse than Brooks today!

Gatorman: As for Michael Lewis, he left the game today with a sprained ankle. We all know he\'s a trooper and will be back before we know it. And personally, I read all of this thread, I never saw Gator bash Brooks nor say anything wrong. I agree with him for the most part.

I don\'t agree with anyone knocking the D though. They are playing their hearts out! They have been holding their own and doin their best playing on a short field with all the INTs and Fumbles from Brooks lately. Give em some credit. People are too quick to bash the Saints. If you are a true Saints fan support your team no matter what. I love Brooks just wish he were consistent. You can play good one week then poorly the next. Consistency is the answer!! I do think he cost us the game today, that is my opinion (and should be a fact) but the fact remains that as long as he is wearing a black and gold jersey, you should stick behind him and any other player on the team.

WhoDat: I absolutely LOVE your comment about Brooks and the Bud commercial with Leon, that one is absolutely priceless! Good one!!

I know ya\'ll are all probably wondering who the heck I am just busting up in the middle of this, but when it comes to the Saints, I don\'t hold my tongue!! I\'m a die hard through and through. I promise you that you will never meet a person that loves this team more than I do!! I am a season ticket holder, have all the Saints merchandise, know all my stats, all my players, and anything else there is to know when it comes to my team. I can tell you every NFL team record, who needs to win and who needs to lose for us to get a wild card. So I am not just walking into this knowing nothing. I know what I need to know and that is why I am posting my opinion! Sorry if any of you don\'t agree with me, but bottom line, stand behind your team!!! Love em, support em, get pissed at them, but stick by their side til the end!!! And get this, I\'m a 24yr old female. I just love the game of football. All of ya\'ll just need to chill, post your opinion, but BACK YOUR TEAM!!!

( I love talking to ANY saints fan, so feel free to write me. I have tons of pictures with my boys too that I am more than willing to share! Even with ole Smiley Brooks!!! (My personal fav though is my man JOE HORN!!!!!!!!!!! A real team leader!!!)

SaintsFan087, while I appreciate you comments on the team, please don\'t direct any barbs at other members. We hope to state only opinions here. Good to have you with us.

[Edited on 24/11/2003 by ColdFusion]

BillyC 11-24-2003 07:16 AM

I think WhoDat was right in a lot of areas in his predictions. He said there was not enough quality free agents signed on defense. He was right. This defense has played better in some games, but in other games they look like the same pathetic defense. There is still a severe lack of talent on defense and as starange as it may sound, I think Venturi has done a pretty good job with this defense, with all things considered, but he still isn\'t a top D coordinator.

WhoDat said that the offense would not be as productive this year. Right again. We clearly have one of the best running backs in the league but we are lacking talent in other areas on offense. But we have the talent on offense to play MUCH better than we have.

On special teams I don\'t know what the deal is there. Just another unit that has not lived up to expectations.

Now as optimistic as I am. I cannot overlook the fact that this team has underachieved. It\'s not just one unit. It\'s offense, defense, and special teams. Who should we blame? No one? Hmmmm..... I don\'t think we are going to improve that way. Let me elaborate on this a little bit more.

Let\'s start with Aaron Brooks. I think Araon is going to be a very good QB, but he is not developing as quickly as I thought he would. He does not get rid of the ball quick enough. He tends to lock onto receivers and does not look the safety off. He tends to hold the ball too long and take unneccessary sacks. The truth is that Brooks is not as bad as some say and he\'s not as good as some say. Yes, that includes me.

Haslett has rebuilt this team. Take the offensive line for example. He\'s rebuilt it about 4-times. It\'s hard to improve on defense when you rebuild the offensive line EVERY year. But the sad thing is -- it still needs work. This is the area of the team that has been focused on the most in the draft and in free agency and it STILL needs work.

Bottom Line -- This offense isn\'t loaded with weapons like some like to think. Joe Horn is about it when it comes to good quality receivers. Donte\' is never on the field. Paython is average.

Defense is exactly like WhoDat said it would be and it cannot be counted on. Sure, they have played some good games against below average offenses, but that\'s about it.

Haslett is in his 4th year. WhoDat asked me a long time ago how long is enough. My answer is this year is enough. I\'m not too proud to admit I was wrong. I WAS WRONG. I think I would pretty much be right when I say that if we got another coach that they probably wouldn\'t do any worse. So, why not go another direction? We might even actually improve. Players might even reach their full potential.

I think WhoDat is correct when he says we are not that far away. A couple of impact players on defene and maybe another quality receiver and we might just get over the hump.

One thing I know WhoDat is correct about is for those of you that think this team would have a much better record without Brooks. That\'s rediculos. They might have won one more game if Brooks would have played better, but that\'s about it.

lumm0x 11-24-2003 10:49 AM

I do think Brooks has to play perfect for this team to win.

There are alot of guys on this team that you can bank on what you are going to get from them every Sunday. Deuce, Horn, Fontenot, Terrell Smith, Carney, Grant, Howard, etc..... These guys show up with the same stuff all the time. It\'s called consistency. There are alot of other players that don\'t exhibit this quality and like it or not Brooks is one of them. And there is also that point that there aren\'t too many QB\'s around the league that are highly consistent either...and that is true as well.

I think that with the coaching staff we have and the game plans we bring Brooks needs to be flawless for us to win. We consistently take stupid penalties that can help kill drives. We do not create many turnovers as a defense, so we need to work with a long field. Our special teams has been everything but this year. All of these things have been a constant throughout the year, so we need to have Brooks\' \"A\" game to succeed. Until this coaching staff can get the players disciplined enough to limit the mental mistakes that cause penalties, time outs taken simply because our guys can\'t line up properly, and the simple fact that as a unit we exhibit poor tackling skills, we begin behind the 8 ball.

Sorry SF087, but the defense has to get some blame for yesterday. The coaching staff should take the first wave of stones simply because they apparently planned the entire off season around building team speed to counter elusive QB\'s and to stop the screen passes that killed us the last two seasons. Guess what killed us yesterday? We cannot stop a screen. That is becoming a fact. The Eagles didn\'t have to work a short field yesterday. They had huge drives against us. I think they punted once. The defense is almost at full strength, or as strong with predicted starters as any unit in the NFL right now, so injuries can\'t be excused at this point with the exception of the CB position. The Eagles were using a much less experienced and banged up secondary than us. The defense wasn\'t solely to blame for yesterday, neither was Brooks, neither was McCarthy, Venturi or Haslett. Yesterday can be blamed on the Saints. Just like every other win and loss. We are a very talented team that is not disciplined, consistent or under strong leadership.

JOESAM2002 11-24-2003 06:31 PM

I just have to throw my 2 cents in here. It took me this long to get the taste of yesterdays loss out of my mouth. I honestly believe that loss was caused by the whole team. Yes, Brooks had 2 fumbles right against our own goal line. It certainly didn\'t help where they occured. Makes that field reallllllllll short. But to me this was a complete team break down. Deuce, of course can hold his head up high once again. I love this team as much as anybody, but yesterday, they just didn\'t play the way they can.

WhoDat 11-24-2003 10:04 PM

Billy, that was the best post you\'ve ever made on this board. Now if you would just stop arguing and admit that I\'ll always right and you\'re always wrong every time we talk things would go a lot smoother around here! ;) LMAO. Just kidding man. But I am printing that message and framing it! ;)

Bottom line is, we are close. When things go wrong our receivers look like they\'re garbage. I don\'t believe that\'s the case. Next year could be totally different. You put Donte on the field (HEALTHY) for a full season, you eliminate the drops and injuries to Horn, you match up Pathon on the nickel back, and allow Lewis to run wild, plus put Conwell, Boo, and Deuce into routes now and then and this team has all the tools to be absolutely explosive. I still truly believe that. The problem is coaching. We need to eliminate mistakes on every side of the ball. The defense needs to make tackles. The O needs to stop the dumb penalties, turnovers, and f-ups in general.

A couple of key free agents and some good coaching and this team WILL be a true contender.

One other thing. I guess we\'ll all see this week how valuable Brooks truly is to this team. It sounds like he won\'t play. On the one hand, you want Bouman to light it up, eliminate the dumb mistakes, and help this team make a push for the playoffs. However, if he does that, you\'ve got a MAJOR QB controversy on your hands. After the Saints ran Delhomme out of town after not giving him a shot. If a guy who is apparently a \"lesser\" backup can have as much success as Brooks did as a starter both Brooks and Haslett will be on the hot seat BIG time!! So really, it\'s lose lose for the Brooks/Haslett clan. If the Saints fail with Bouman, seasons over. If they flourish, then Haslett and Brooks will get major criticism for both guys decisions and play over the last two years.

BillyC 11-24-2003 11:09 PM

Enjoy while ya can WhoDat. I\'ll be back to calling y\'all out again real soon... ;)

What amazes me on here is the lack of talk about the offensive line. Gator has been one of the only memebers that has constantly talked about the poor offensive line play. I just heard John Madden say and I quote -- \"When an offense is inconsistant you can usually point to the offensive line and you don\'t need to go any further.\" He then went on to say that the offensive line has to play together for at least a year and usually more to keep from making stupid mistakes.

Year in and year out we have a different starting offensive line. I\'ve been saying it and I will keep saying that EVERYTHING starts with the offensive and defensive line. You get good protection in the passing game and even an average QB will shine. You can put an above average QB behind a sub-par offensive line and they will struggle.

Samething with the defensive line. Average linebackers will thrive behind a great D-line. Cornerbacks will play much better with a good pass rush, but you put a bad D-line on the field and it will cause other areas to suffer.

I don\'t remember exactly what Gator said earlier but it was something to the effect that there is too much player turnover with the Saints. I couldn\'t agree more !!

We need consistancy and it damn sure couldn\'t hurt to return more players to the starting line-up each year !!

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by BillyC]

BillyC 11-24-2003 11:29 PM

Gator -- The inside of the line is pretty good at opening up some holes for Deuce but the left and right tackles leave something to be desired. Good guards are a dime a dozen in the NFL but good offensive tackles are hard to come by. Especially LEFT tackles. That\'s why you see so many tackles signed in the first round.

Furthermore, if this team needs one yard for a first down, I have no confidence that they will get it. Do you? Good offensive lines impose their will on the defense. Remember the Cowboy\'s O-line? The one Emmit used to run behind? Too many times I see an instant pass rush in the Saints backfield. Don\'t kid yourself. This offensive line is not that good.

saintz08 11-25-2003 12:55 AM

I would not go with negative Gator .

That\'s my job ..... ;)

It would be way too easy to flame Brooks for the loses , but then I would have to spend the rest of the week trying to get Saintsfan off of the cross he is so eager to climb up on .

For a team to play together from the 1st quarter to the 4th takes leadership and commitment . Brooks has certain skills at the quarterback position , leadership is not one of them .

WhoDat 11-25-2003 08:05 AM

I don\'t know Billy. I would say that D-line is the strongest part of our defense. Howard, Grant, Whitehead, Sullivan, and Grady have all played pretty well this year. Our linebackers are just that bad.

Same goes for our offense. Our line isn\'t the greatest, but they are NOT bad either. Just b/c Madden (who I think is going senile anyway - if he isn\'t there already) said something on the Monday Night game does not mean it applies to us. Deuce is one of the best running backs in the league, and while he does do A LOT on his own after first contact, the line has done about as good as any other team\'s line in run blocking. In pass protection they had some problems early, but have been pretty damn solid since then. It\'s not like Brooks is running for his life getting hit 20 times a game back there. Most of his passes come when he\'s standing up straight in a well-formed pocket. At least, that\'s what I see.

I have a really hard time blaming either line for the Saints poor play. To me, the major fault on offense is splread between injured and underacheiving WRs, an inconsistent QB, and poor playcalling for most of the year (although you have to admit it\'s been pretty damn good of recent).

On D, we just get worse the farther you get from the line. LBs, CBs, and Safeties could all go (minus D Rodgers and Victor Green in my mind), and I wouldn\'t bat an eyelash. The coordinator is stil the biggest problem with that D. Sorry to the guys who have gotten all warm and fuzzy about Venturi since the D played well against Atlanta and Tampa, but he hasn\'t gotten any better and neither has the D, and VENTURI is STILL the biggest reason why.

BillyC 11-25-2003 08:37 AM

The offensive line is as inconsistant as any part of the team IMO. Sure, they have better games than others, but they break down in pass protection too much for my liking. Then there is the little matter of penalties. Too many presnap penalties, too many holding calls. While I don\'t take everything Madden says as \"the gospel\" the guy does know his football and I agree with him about the offensive line causing offenses to be inconsistant. Madden was talking about the Giants offense being able to move the ball at will on offense but not being able to finish drives off. It\'s easy to blame the QB and Brooks has his share of the blame, but there are 10-more guys on the field and 5 of them are offensive linemen.

Here are 4 teams with the least amount of penalties :

Seattle 61
Indianapolis 61
Kansas City 54
Green Bay 51

It looks like these teams have consistant offenses that finish off drives. Now let\'s look at some of the most penalized teams.

Here are 4 team with the most penalties :

Pittsburgh 85
Houston 84
Arizona 82
New Orleans 78

I\'ll bet ya that these teams with the most penalties have inconsistant offenses that are faced with long yardage situations because if penalties. Stats do lie a lot of times but the stats on penalties don\'t lie. Some teams might overcome them better than others, but not many....

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by BillyC]

pakowitz 11-25-2003 09:21 AM


The offensive line is as inconsistant as any part of the team IMO. Sure, they have better games than others, but they break down in pass protection too much for my liking
your right billy they do break down in pass protection, but only b/c brooks holds onto the ball for over 5 seconds, he sits there and looks over the whole field slowly, he stays in the pocket, and stands there looking clueless, and thats y they break down, no one can be expected to hold their blocks for over 5 seconds, the D lines in this league are just too good. but i will say this, you are right about the penalties, we get more false start penalties then anyone in the league. thats just horrible, thats not having dicipline(i.e. bad coaching)

p.s. Walter rasby sucks ass, he should be cut immedietly, im ready to start a rallying cry to start zach hilton, who\'s with me?

BillyC 11-25-2003 09:27 AM


your right billy they do break down in pass protection, but only b/c brooks holds onto the ball for over 5 seconds, he sits there and looks over the whole field slowly, he stays in the pocket, and stands there looking clueless, and thats y they break down, no one can be expected to hold their blocks for over 5 seconds, the D lines in this league are just too good.
Sure, that happens Pak. But I can\'t even count the times that Brooks get\'s instant pressure and is running for his life back there. Y\'all make me wonder if you even watch the games or could it be that you only like to point out the times that it\'s Brooks\' fault?

I can fault Brooks for holding the ball longer than he should but I\'m not going to pin EVERYTHING on Brooks. The truth is there every Sunday and all you have to do is watch the games..............

pakowitz 11-25-2003 10:13 AM


I can fault Brooks for holding the ball longer than he should but I\'m not going to pin EVERYTHING on Brooks. The truth is there every Sunday and all you have to do is watch the games..............

its a wonder u actually admitted to him holding onto the ball to long, im not blaming brooks for everything but if YOU actually watch the games, he causes MOST of the problems, not all, but MOST. The truth is Brooks does have talent, ill give him that but he has no heart, he acts as if he doesnt care whether he wins or loses. and its discraceful to all saints fans, players, and coaches, he just doesnt care if he plays well or bad, its all the same to him

BillyC 11-25-2003 10:22 AM

Pak --

It\'s mostly Brooks fault that he get\'s sacked huh? Do you have something to support that with? How many more times is it Brooks fault? Or is that just the way you preceive it? You got to come with more than that when you make those BOLD statements or you are going to come off looking like one of the Brooks\' bashers.

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by BillyC]

pakowitz 11-25-2003 11:03 AM

yes billy, it is brooks fault. here is Y. he stands there and waits and waits and waits for someone to get open, he doesnt move around, he just stands there, holding onto the ball, just waiting. he needs to learn how to get rid of the ball quickly, not take a 5 or 7 step drop and then wait, and wait and wait. if he would move around the field, get out of the pocket, make something happen, i wouldnt have a problem with him. he is a mobile qb but he doesnt use it, and i have no clue Y. maybe he is scared of getting hurt, i dont know but what i do know is that he is hesitant to throw the ball.

for example, on the play where he found boo williams by the sideline wide open, and i mean wide open, he first pump faked, Y? what was the reason for pump faking? he was wide open, if he wouldnt have pump faked, williams might have scored but b/c he hesitated, he didnt. so yes. i blame brooks for getting sacked as well as many other things.

BillyC 11-25-2003 11:08 AM

Pak, don\'t get me wrong. Brooks does the things you are talking about. Although, I don\'t think he is near as bad as you try to make it sound, I do agree he makes some STUPID mistakes.

I just think you are trying to pin WAY too much on Brooks and not looking at the overall team play. When you start say stuff like:


he has no heart, he acts as if he doesnt care whether he wins or loses. and its discraceful to all saints fans, players, and coaches, he just doesnt care if he plays well or bad, its all the same to him
It sure seems you have a vendetta against Brooks and you refuse to share the blame. Maybe not Pak, but that\'s the way it appears to me.

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by BillyC]

BlackandBlue 11-25-2003 11:13 AM

There is little wrong with this offensive line. You can put the blame up front, but overall, they\'ve done better than I had expected, all things considered. Yeah, you can point out several instances where Gandy gave up a sack or Bentley had a lack of concentration and caused a penalty, but overall, this has been a good, solid offensive line. Hell, even Holland is doing well, and he\'s a freaking rookie. Deuce is awesome, but he wouldn\'t be making those runs if it weren\'t for the holes the O-Line were creating for him. You\'d be looking at 2nd and 7 instead of 2nd and 2. I agree with Pak 100%, Aaron does have a tendency to hold on to the ball way to long. It\'s one of the lasting memories I\'ll have of this season: \"Aaron Brooks drops back...and waits...waits...waits...\" Please don\'t interpret this as, \"OMG Brooks sux- we need Manning, OMG OMG OMG,\" cause that\'s not what it is. He has his flaws, but no player is perfect, and he is a decent QB, that if we can get some playmakers in some other positions, won\'t have to worry about his place on this team.

BillyC 11-25-2003 11:23 AM


There is little wrong with this offensive line.
If you call leading the league in presnap penlties \"little wrong\" then that\'s your call. And not to mention all the holding calls. Hell, it\'s hard enough to go 10-yards much less 15 or 20. That tends to make consistant offenses INCONSISTANT.


Deuce is awesome, but he wouldn\'t be making those runs if it weren\'t for the holes the O-Line were creating for him
That\'s all fine and Dandy, but it has nothing to do with pass blocking. There are so many times when I see instant pressure on Brooks and he scrambles away from it, but it seems no one wants to acknowlege that.


I agree with Pak 100%, Aaron does have a tendency to hold on to the ball way to long.
I have already said I agree with him too. How many times do I have to say it. It still doesn\'t mean this offensive line is very consistant with their pass blocking though.


Please don\'t interpret this as, \"OMG Brooks sux- we need Manning, OMG OMG OMG,\" cause that\'s not what it is
No B&B I don\'t think that in the slightest. I never see you posting anything that is not well thought out, but I just happen not to agree with you on this particular subject 100%.

[Edited on 25/11/2003 by BillyC]

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