TheOak

There are plenty enough threads discussing details and assumptions on the Bounty/Pay for Performance topic. The overall climate I believe is that nearly everyone wants this to be over with. Maybe one way or another.

I will ask the hard question that most will have to think about, as Saints fans we are very familiar with struggle, maybe even more so that most teams due to our history with ups and down, poor records, being brow beat and called 'aints".... Hell, even "Who Dat" has been challenged.

Some factors to mull before you vote. We all know that Bounties go back at least 30 years as admitted by some retired players. We all know that other teams have done it, as admitted by multiple players on multiple teams. That being said do you honestly think we are 100% innocent or do you believe we have some culpability? Don't say "yes, but"... we all know the NFL has handled this poorly, we all know the NFLPA played its part in creating the power vacuum, all parties are guilty of going public with slanderous statements that they have yet to use face to face with each other....

How badly do you want this to go away? What are you willing to accept to make it go away?

Dam.. cant edit the Poll now. Difference between 3 and 4 is that 3 includes coaches. 4 is just players.

WhoDat!656

IMO, the worst offense the Saints are guilty of is aggravated stupidity for keeping records of whatever it is the league is saying the Saints did.

TheOak

Well... can we agree that a kept record, is a kept record of "something".. No?

In my honest opinion, saying the Saints are 100% innocent... knowing this is a League systemic issue is a little too far for me to reach. Sh1t happened, the NFLPA gave Goodell his power and we are paying the price for 30 years of ignored culture. We do not deserve the punishment that we have received but nothing can be done about that. Goodell has legal power granted by the CBA with no checks in place.

The coaches are cooked, they already admitted that they were warned in 2009 and Greg Williams admitted the warning was ignored. What do we gain from a victory? A line backer near the end of his career who's productivity has fallen for two years, and a Defensive End for four games that has averaged 6 sacks for the last two seasons? If we could get coaching back then i would say it is worth it.. but we cant.

WhoDat!656

I agree that the suspensions of Smith & Vilma are inconsequential to the Saints success; the Saints have proven that they can survive a period with out Smith.

If Payton hadn't been so quick to issure his apology, (I have to believe that Benson had a hand in that), then the players wouldn't look like they just dropped their pants and bent over in front of Goodell.

TheOak

Which is the premise that the league knows very well. In one hand you have coaches apologizing and admitting and accepting responsibility (they couldn't have done it with out the players)... Then you have the players (under advice from the NFLPA) refusing to cooperate fully and go to New York to talk to Goodell.

We seem to only be looking at tangible evidence as the only thing that incriminates any players. Since the coaches issue has passed and seems like it was an eternity ago.... We seem to forget the big picture.

All of the players are fighting tooth and nail to prove their innocence and that nothing happened assuming the league has no hard evidence.

If this were to go to trial and I was the Leagues attorney I would never put a player on the stand, I wouldn't have to. The first person I would put on the stand is Greg Williams, who has already admitted to basically anything that Goodell wants him to admit to. Then I would put the following people on the stand and ask the following questions:

Sean Payton: What did you take responsibility of?
Sean Payton releases statement on Bounty-Gate | KETK

Greg Williams: What are you apologizing for the involvement in?
Bountygate bombshell: Williams, Payton suspended

Mickey Loomis: What violations, and what are you taking responsibility of?
Saints release joint statement from Mickey Loomis and Sean Payton on BountyGate Charges

And while the argument can be made that Greg Williams statements could have been motivated by his desire to be reinstated.... How do you argue that two very well respected people like Payton and Loomis are clueless and nothing happened regardless of what the players claim?

For all those who think this should be fought in a court room:
If you are a member of the jury how to do you find the players innocent after their coaches publicly admit to wrong doing going on????


Payton and Loomis did what they did to "try" and keep all of this from falling on the players.... It didnt work.

pherein

Sorry guys, Im as sick as anyone of hearing about this, but I have to pick for us to fight to the bitter end, even if we lose.

My reasoning is this.
1. Someone has to stand up to the NFL, and Goodell, and show them that you can't just make stuff up. Win or lose they need a solid punch in the nose for the good of the NFL. You have to fight the bully at some point or he never learns. Who better than the Saints to teach the NFL this historic lesson.
I would be proud of the Saints if they can make future commissioners and the NFL think twice before trying to pull of this kind of BS again.

2. I think the possibility of a ego driven, corporate moron, and mindless CEO like Goodell ever capitulating, admitting he's wrong, reducing fines, is Zero. Ive work with to many of them.

3. The more we fight, the more unity I see on the team. They are pissed, and the more unity I see with the fans. Goodell picked the wrong city to start a fight with. The NFL and Goodell are the weakest things we have had to face in our history.

4. I really don't care much how other teams fans see us in the end. But we are a great family fan base, sportsman, and worked very hard for our reputation. IT might mean nothing to Philly, but it means a lot to me. The more we fight the better we look. backing down is for wimps. At least we can always say we fought the best we could, and didn't wimp out, like other teams.

5. The tiny impossibility that the Saints would be responsible for getting Goodell fired ROCKS !!! It would make us a legion around the NFL,lol .
and set the tone for the future..Dont Mess with NO!

6. No matter how painful, its the right thing to do. Seeking the truth and fighting injustice is never bad. It isn't fun, but someone has to do it.

Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009.
Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before.

jcp026

We can fight to the bitter end but it won't do any good.

Rugby Saint II

I respectfully disagree!

SloMotion

I voted #3 because the Saints do have some culpability here in pay-for-performance, but no more then any other NFL team ... I think suspending coaches/players 2-4 games would have been enough for Goodell to get his message across ... for crissake, send a warning shot over the bow to the league before you try sinking the whole fricken' ship, Rog.

The injustice to me is the length of the suspensions, not the actual suspensions ... I don't see why Goodell couldn't modify the punishments (with the exception of Greg Williams) and still come off looking as a 'no-nonsense' commissioner.

pumpkindriver

I agree with SloMo, and I also voted 3. A 4 game suspension with a hefty fine for Sean and 4 games for the other coaches, besides GW, would have been enough, aong with 4 games for Vilma and the other players. And this would've been laid to rest. No court challenges etc. but no, Roger had to be heavy handed and now hes reaping what he has sown.