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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I looked at 3 of the top QB's in the game and looked at their passing numbers vs. great run defenses then looked at their numbers vs. great CB's. I think this gives a good indication that great run defenses ...

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Old 06-30-2004, 09:43 PM   #1
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

I looked at 3 of the top QB's in the game and looked at their passing numbers vs. great run defenses then looked at their numbers vs. great CB's.

I think this gives a good indication that great run defenses and a great pass rush beats shut down CB's.

P. Manning 14/21 173 1 0 vs. Titans - (Rush Defense #1)
P. Manning 21/33 216 2 1 vs. Jaguars (Rush Defense #2)
P. Manning 23/34 293 1 1 vs. Panthers ( Rush Defense # 11)
P. Manning 23/37 266 1 1 vs. Dolphins (great CBs)
P. Manning 29/48 278 4 1 vs. Patriots (great CBs)

S. McNair 21/27 187 1 1 vs. Jaguars (Rush Defense #2)
S. McNair 12/22 190 1 0 vs. Panthers (Rush Defense #11)
S. McNair 17/23 201 2 0 vs. Dolphins (great CB's)
S. McNair 25/38 269 2 1 vs. Raiders (great CB's)

D. McNabb 18/26 182 1 1 vs. Panthers (Rush Defense #11)
D. McNabb 23/32 242 3 0 vs. Redskins (great CB's)
D. McNabb 15/27 236 0 1 vs. Dohphins (great CB's)







[Edited on 1/7/2004 by GumboBC]
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Old 06-30-2004, 10:06 PM   #2
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

Billy boy I say one thing about you. You sure are persistant. But remember you used to say stats don\'t matter. You are first to claim Peyton is a bum, why are you know saying he is a top 3 QB?

How does Brooks stack up against Great Rush Defenses and Great CBs?
Well, Gator, Peyton finally won a playoff game or 2. :P Peyton managed not to choke until the AFC championship game. So, I give him his due credit.

And I was just holding the \" Manning Boy\" to the same standards ya\'ll hold Brooks to. :P
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Old 06-30-2004, 10:41 PM   #3
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

Peyton Manning
Yards: 4,267 (1st)
TDs: 29 (2nd)
Passer Rating: 99 (2nd)
Completion Percentage: 66.96% (1st)
TD:INT Ratio: 2.9 (3rd)

Yeah, without those playoff wins that Manning sure is a bum.

What\'s the rule for QBs qith Billy again? Oh yeah, I remember:

If the QB is one of the top 10 or so in the league, and the team wins, the QB won the game. If the QB isn\'t in the top 10, then it was the team. If the QB is in the top ten and the team loses, then the team let the QB down, otherwise the QB let the team down.

SO by those standards, Manning is the only reason they won any games at all and all those picks he threw in the AFC championship were a result of the line not doing its job and letting Manning down. Receivers probably dropped balls too.

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\"
he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"
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Old 06-30-2004, 10:51 PM   #4
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

WhoDat --

Pssssssst. Are you telling me that superstar QB\'s like Peyton Manning, Steve McNair, Tom Brady, and Mike Vick don\'t belong in the NFL because they are holding their teams back? That sounds like what cha been preachin\' to me!!

Well, I ain\'t buyin\' it. Not tonight!!! Check back with me later though... :P

Oh, I might be willing to buy into that: \"Penalties don\'t kill drives\" thingy that you were tryin\' to sell me last year. Maybe you can give me a package deal on the both of them? :P

[Edited on 1/7/2004 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 1/7/2004 by GumboBC]
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Old 07-01-2004, 07:35 AM   #5
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

I guess what I don\'t see is how does overall run defense show how good a teams pass rush is. It is one thing to load up the box and stop the run, but another to pressure the quarterback. I was unable to find team ranks sortable by categories like knockdowns and hurries to see which teams had the best pass rush and was far too lazy to even think about checking every game recap and compiling my own totals.

I think my main point is that due to our inability to stop any team from running all over us last season, our CB did an above average job considering we had our safeties staying home for run support. You don\'t know how well our pass defense will be until you fix the leak up the middle, and if fixed, do we really need that mythical beast known as a shut-down corner when our pass rush keeps the opposing QB from having the luxury of time to let plays develop or find the open reciever? Providing Young and Sullivan can step it up and plug up the gaps and our highly touted young MLBs play up to their hype, only then will we know if our pass defense needs more help.

I totally expect to see Tebucky have an outstanding year making plays now that he should be free to follow the quarterback instead of the runningback off the snap. Thomas is above average, but lacks speed to be a shut down. Ambrose is the same, though I read he wasn\'t 100% last year and his speed is better than we thought. Craft is a wildcard that I dont think anyone here knows enough about to feel comfortable with, and judging by the team\'s statement that Ambrose is #2 with Brown set to challenge him, that puts Craft at #4 depth wise. Would be nice to get at least one more adequate corner in case of injury.

All that being said, there is still the X factor of pressure. On paper, we look to have the most explosive and deep defensive line this team has ever seen. In theory, our new defensive schemes stands to utilize that talent and depth and relentlessly attack the QB every down. If we only stop the run, this team should average 4 sacks, 6 knockdowns, and a dozen hurries barring injury, well over half the total passing attempts a QB will get. Not to mention the majority of interceptions in this league don\'t come from outstanding coverage from the corners, but from forcing the QB to hastily make decisions by getting your hand in his face before hes ready, and the giveaway/takeaway ratio is almost always indicative of the winner of the game.

I know that\'s a lot of if\'s, and only time will tell if we are as good as we say we are, but I\'m sold.

btw...Brooks vs. the same

A. Brooks - 15/23 185 1 0 vs. Titans (#1 Rush Defense)
A. Brooks - 22/38 296 2 0 vs. Jaguars (#2 Rush Defense)
A. Brooks - 15/32 243 1 0 vs Cowboys (#3 Rush Defense)
A. Brooks - 14/30 121 1 0 vs Redskins (Great Corners)

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Old 07-01-2004, 11:32 AM   #6
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

Although I don\'t intend to try to speak for BC I do believe in what he is trying to say and it has been said so many times now that it isn\'t really worth the argument anymore but here goes anyway.
A good fierce pass rush will make average DB\'s look very good. The key to stopping any teams passing game is to not give the QB time to look around at all of his options. This is true no matter who the QB is. If he is running for his life or constantly dodging a rush he will not be able to make all of the right decisions with the ball.
If our pass rush is as fierce as it should be then the DB\'s we have, although not the premier in the league, will hold their own.
Good intent Billy. Just old news.
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Old 07-01-2004, 11:52 AM   #7
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

coastalkid --

While this topic has been discussed many times, I thought I\'d spread a little different light on the subject by actually showing how some of the best QB\'s did in 2003 vs. great front 4\'s and then against \"shutdown\" cornerbacks.

There MIGHT be 2 or 3 guys in the league who can take the best receivers out of the game, but it\'s a good run defense (putting QB\'s in known passing situations) and a fierce pass rush (not giving the QB enough time) that\'s the key to shutting down a passing game.

It\'s been said here many times that our CB\'s are going to get killed against the upper echelon receivers. That will probably be true, IF we can\'t stop the run or generate a pass rush.
But, if we can, we have a chance to have a great season.

I keep seeing all this talk here on B&G about how we need Chris McCallister, Mike McKenzie, Charles Woodsen, etc., etc.. I think CB\'s are way over-hyped.
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Old 07-01-2004, 01:11 PM   #8
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

Billy, I like the move. Very interesting post.

I\'d like to say on behalf of the \"we need corners camp\" that none of us believe we NEED a Woodson or a McAlister. We\'re all saying this: imagine what a nightmare our D would be if we had one of them! Commence salivating.

I have agreed all along, and I don\'t remember anyone who didn\'t, that D starts with the D-line. Run stopping is of utmost importance, then pass rush, THEN coverage. My point when I started in on this debate was that people should not overlook what the secondary can do for the front four! Coverage sacks, more men in the box, and more confidence in a read situation with better guys over the top = greater D-line.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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Old 07-01-2004, 07:10 PM   #9
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

One more thing I would like to add:

I don\'t believe there is a such thing as a shut-down corner anymore. Receivers have gotten too big, too fast, and too quick to contain, and none are faster than our Saints corps. Put your best corner on the opposing teams best reciever and they still need help. Sure they could shut down the #3 reciever but what good would that do when the #1 is runnin all over the place. I looked around for some stat archives but to no avail to hopefully back up my claim, but I would like to find out how many times quartebacks threw at the supposed best corners during the course of the season and how they fared. Then I would like to compare those stats to the 90\'s cowboy teams with Deion - the premiere and only true shut-down corner I will admit to and I hate the Cowboys (From Houston). I remember teams playing the Cowboys would maybe attempt one or two passes per game total on him he was so dominating, but then again that was before the prototypical reciever of today\'s game existed. Any help?

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Old 07-01-2004, 07:29 PM   #10
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Cornerbacks vs. Defensive Line. Who Wins?

Sars,

I don\'t think there ever has been or ever will be what people call a \"shut down corner\". However, there are some guys you just have to think twice about throwing toward, even if there is no safety or linebacker out there with them. I think Deion was in the camp, but so are many others - Champ Bailey, Chris McAlister, Sam Madison a couple of years ago, and the list goes on.

I just don\'t understand why everyone thinks that the secondary is SO low on the list of priorities. I agree that you can be successful with a mediocre secondary, but think of the successes had by mediocre D-line players because someone made the QB check down! I agree that stopping the pass is secondary to stopping the run, but I just think that people are overlooking the value of a quality corner.

Here is something about this debate that I\'ve been wondering about for a few days that I haven\'t been able to pin down. When making comparisons, we are comparing entire D-lines to entire secondaries. What the debate is about, it seems to me, is whether or not a quality corner can really help a team. I\'m not sure that stats are kept that would tell us one way or another - especially when most will admit that many great plays by a corner go un-recorded (when he forces a QB to throw short or to the other side of the feild). Though I really do admire Billy\'s work in providing interesting stats - this seems like a debate where those numbers are hard to use.

I will continue to maintain that a quality CB will make the entire defense better, and not just \"a little better\". This is the guy who makes a lot of different things possible on D, makes the D-line look better in the middle of the game when they\'re getting frustrated about not being able to get to the QB, allows the Safeties to roll off and cover the run, and so on. Sure, we\'re not going to get this guy this year, but I don\'t see why that makes him of \"low\" value?

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks :cool:
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