Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Yes, they knocked it out of the park in 2006, no doubt.

But since then have they really drafted all that well? Other than Nicks and Graham, and to a lesser extent Ingram and Jordan, it doesn't look so good.

I'm not including 2012 since its too early to judge.

I smell suck.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their reputation?
 

I think you're forgetting the most important names:
Gibbs
Williams (good and worse)
Spags
Ryan (?)

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their reputation?
 

Those guys weren't drafted.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

I think what it means is who's coaching the draft picks.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

the saints are risk takers and it shows

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Cant forget Morestead, Meachem, and Bushrod in that list which all came to be decent.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Meachem? Are you freaking kidding?

He was put on the Physically Unable to Perform because he wasn't in shape; a rookie WR that wasn't in shape!!!

It was a horrible pick and he didn't warrant a first round selection; and there were better players on the board and definite greater needs at other positions (and still are there)...

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

well one things for certain, they done better the last couple of years.


What I am ready to throw under the bus though is any player that doesnt even begin to make an impact their rookie year, so far none of the players we drafted that hasnt even begin to impact the game at least to some extent in their rookie year has went on to do anything. You look at other teams and you got some rookie starting and actually performing, this team after each draft, dont even get that far, least not on defense.

I mean I honestly want a list of players in this game or a percentage of them that has done nothing in their rookie year that actually went on to become a really good player.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

You forgot one of the superstars on the team. :bng:

2009 4 5 28 164 Thomas Morstead P Southern Methodist

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Obviously none of us know what its like in the draft rooms but there are some serious questions with our recent drafting skills

Patrick Robinson - 1st round when he wasn't even the best CB on his team
Usama young - 2nd round WTF!!
Taylor melhaff - off the team after half a season
Sed Ellis - What a joke
Chip Vaughan and Stanley Arnoux - beasts in college and never even made it on the field here
Al Woods - Cut in preseason for lack of work ethic

Something needs to change with our draft strategy, cuz it aint working

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Nobody is saying he was Jerry Rice, but he certainly wasn't Darius Heyward Bay....... Meachem did eventually have significant snaps on this team. So the pick was warranted. And he is in the portion of the team where I say if HE personally doesn't make a handfull of plays then the Saints don't have a championship at all.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Woooo. Before you indite payton/loomis regime and walk out the firing sqaud, shouldn't you put all the evidence on display. I'm not trying to absolve payton/loomis because I do feel like the earlier parts of their drafts should produce a greater percentage of NFL talent, and it hasn't all the time. But as off, and wrong as Payton/Loomis have been on some of the early round talent, is as spot on, and as domiant as they have been on some of the mid to late round talent, as well as kicking ass in free agency. Shouldn't they get credit for that...... And since we are talking reps.....

Under Payton/Loomis
- Best small school late round selection ever.....
- One of the best TE's the saints have ever had
- Selected the best guard in the league currently

IJS

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

yup its the off season...
Nothing to write about so lets make problems for people to read.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

2011 1 1 24 24 Cameron Jordan DE California
2011 2 1 28 28 Mark Ingram RB Alabama
2011 3 3 8 72 Martez Wilson LB Illinois this guy has been under utilized because of size will flurish in the 3-4
2011 4 3 24 88 Johnny Patrick DB Louisville
2011 5 7 23 226 Greg Romeus DE Pittsburgh How would we know can't stay healthy
2011 6 7 40 243 Nate Bussey LB Illinois
2010 1 1 32 32 Patrick Robinson DB Florida State
2010 2 2 32 64 Charles Brown T USC
2010 3 3 31 95 Jimmy Graham TE Miami (FL)
2010 4 4 25 123 Al Woods DT Louisiana State
2010 5 5 27 158 Matt Tennant C Boston College
2010 6 7 32 239 Sean Canfield QB Oregon State
2009 1 1 14 14 Malcolm Jenkins DB Ohio State
2009 2 4 16 116 Chip Vaughn DB Wake Forest
2009 3 4 18 118 Stanley Arnoux LB Wake Forest
2009 4 5 28 164 Thomas Morstead P Southern Methodist you don't think being a pro-bowler punter is a warranted pat on the back for a 5 rounder....
2008 1 1 7 7 Sedrick Ellis DT USC ( bust, yes but played majority snaps)
2008 2 2 9 40 Tracy Porter DB Indiana Contributed on a championship squad should count for somethin
2008 3 5 9 144 DeMario Pressley DT North Carolina State
2008 4 5 29 164 Carl Nicks T Nebraska Another late round masterpiece
2008 5 6 12 178 Taylor Meolhaff K Wisconsin
2008 6 7 30 237 Adrian Arrington WR Michigan
2007 1 1 27 27 Robert Meachem WR Tennessee We don't have a championship if he doesn't win the Redskins game singlehandedly.....
2007 2 3 2 66 Usama Young DB Kent State
2007 3 3 25 88 Andy Alleman G Akron
2007 4 4 8 107 Antonio Pittman RB Ohio State
2007 5 4 26 125 Jermon Bushrod T Towson Serviceable tackle...
2007 6 5 8 145 David Jones DB Wingate
2007 7 7 10 220 Marvin Mitchell LB Tennessee

FOR THE AUTHOR of this disscussion ( Danno )

Here's what I believe: The draft is more about relavance, than significance. In other words your more than likely going to find that player that contributes in the draft, not the breakout star who contributes significantly. For instance, Jermon Bushrod (BTW small school.... Towson....5th round selection!!!!) ..... Success.... Why because he has seen a large amount of his teams snaps good bad or other wise. Of the player's that are drafted only a small percentage of those will be walk off home runs (Jimmy Graham)


- Just because we have a low batting percentage doesn't mean we don't occasionally hit a homer or two!!!!

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Like a big ol' family. Nothing to do right now but argue. Come season time we'll all be Who Dat-in' again.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their reputation?
 

But Team L/P hired them too.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

You know the draft ain't everything. Every year there are second year free agents that mature and make teams. When you have a Superbowl capilar team, you are going to cut a boatload of rookies. This is a good thing.

Tom Brady drafted in sixth round
Jamarcus Russell first round fail
Dan Marino 6th QB drafted


Drafts do not amount to squat.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

So you don't think some teams are better than others at drafting players?

Do you think the draft matters at all?

If all 6 of our draft picks fail to even make the team next year, does that amount to anything? If that happens 6 years in a row does it matter?

I'm of the opinion that drafts do matter.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

IMO it's like gambling in Vegas. Sure, they guy who completely understands black jack is better equipped to NOT lose all his money, but it's still a crap shoot you know?

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

So are you saying draft success year in and year out is irrelevant because its a crap shoot?

Are you kidding me?

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Honestly, I wasn't even aware whether either had a good reputation drafting from the public eye. We've had some big mid/lower round hits... but certainly our fair share of misses and lack of homeruns at the top end. I've always associated Payton as a great offensive mind and Loomis to be a great capologist... but neither as an excellent evaluator of player personnel.

So personally, do I view them as good as their draft reputation? No. It's been kinda average. But our system and ability to negoitiate makes up for it.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Agreed, and just imagine how talented we'd be if we drafted as well as all the other things we do.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Hopefully we'll get it done this year. We know one thing for sure, Loomis/Payton should be as hungry as ever.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Its all a crap shoot.

Drafts matter, but you can't slap am accurate grade on a draft for a minimum of 3 years. It's guessing before that.

Then some draft picks tank for their draft team and do great at their second team....

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Nobody hits on all their pics year in and year out. Nobody. The best guys often fail, and the nobody's succeed enough - even the non-drafted ones - to make my case. It's a crap shoot.

http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/files/lasvegas.jpg

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Usama is playing better than any safety or CB we had on the field in 2012
Usama Young, DB for the Cleveland Browns at NFL.com

thats bad. he is a solid nicle and dime CB. pick was a bit high

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Whoever scouts the large universities only has an eye for offense. Bite the bullet and bring in a defensive guy and let them both scout. They definitely need new talent evaluators on defense. Maybe we should be shopping for guys that fit our system. Do the scouts even know if a player played in a 4-3 or 3-4? It's been said here before.....square peg round hole.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

So I'll put down Saintfan, Oak and QBREES on record claiming that draft success doesn't matter.

This will be a lot of fun for the next several weeks.:p

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

I didn't say draft success doesn't matter. I said getting it right is a crap shoot. It is a crap shoot. I will say a successful draft does not a winner make. It's part of the puzzle - nothing more and nothing less.

And it's a crap shoot. :-)

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

You know what would be pretty cool... if team revealed their draft boards afterwards. Don't really care to see the entire thing... just at that curent pick, give us the names of the 3 players they were seriously considering at the time. Would to fun to speculate what could have been or whether or not we completely dropped the ball at the time.

Pipe dream... I know.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

I disagree so completely it astounds me. I think there definitely are certain teams and certain scouts that are better at spotting and drafting talent than others. Its why teams invest so much money in scouting. I'm dumbfounded someone would think its the equivalent of drawing names out of a hat.

If it was a crap shoot no team would invest money on scouting, or going to the combine or going to pro-days.

To say its all just a crap shoot is the epitome of shortsightedness.

I'm beginning to think we have the most uninformed fans in the league.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Saints are an offensive football team so of course the scouts would find more talent on that side of the ball and not so much on defense. Look at the Steelers, they have hit on a bunch of defensive players but have struck out on offensive and offensive linemen like its going out of style

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

And who ever thinks that the draft is a crap shoot needs to get their head examined. There's a reason why some teams pick in the top 5-10 year after year, they can't scout and either reach or miss on players that were "sure" things

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

I suddenly have a feeling several of you bastads are just jerking my chain. :p

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Dude. Read my initial post. I concede that some teams are better than others. That's my blackjack analogy. Certainly some blackjack players are better than others and are therefore less likely to get taken to the bank. That doesn't change the fact that it's still a gamble.

In spite of all the money and effort that goes into it, it's still a gamble. It always has been and it always will be, because all the measurables do not equate to success for a given player. There are a gazillion examples of this.

You may call me uninformed. I'm quite well informed. I'm also a realist. If the performance of a player were so easily predictable, we'd see far fewer busts. But we don't. It happens every year, and even the best and most well-respected people who are completely up to speed on every player's measurables will disagree on draft day.

Maybe you prefer the term "calculated gamble"? Regardless is it far Far FAR from anything that remotely resembles an exact science. It's - A - Crap - Shoot. Period.

Or maybe you can tell me who's the best at it and why? I'm definitely interested...

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

I would assume the best at it are the ones that year in and year out hit on their picks. And I'd guess their scouts are rewarded accordingly

I'd also imagine that the ones who suck at it year in and year out don't last long in this league.

My point was other than 2006, it appears we suck at it more than most teams. I only did one comparison with Atlanta and they have had 3 times the success we've had drafting talent.

I'd imagine that having over 1/2 your draft picks fail is a decent indicator that you suck at drafting, especially compared to your rival that has a roster full of successful draftees. The comparison between the F'cons draft success and ours isn't even close. In fact its downright embarrassing.

Swap Ryan and Brees and we're a perinneal 7 win team and they're bumping 13 to 14 wins every year with 3 or 4 championships under their belt.

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

I don't know. Atlanta appears to have just as many misses as we have since 2006.

2012 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
2 55 Peter Konz G Wisconsin
3 91 Lamar Holmes T Southern Mississippi
5 157 Bradie Ewing RB Wisconsin
5 164 Jonathan Massaquoi DE Troy
6 192 Charles Mitchell SS Mississippi State
7 249 Travian Robertson NT South Carolina
2011 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 6 Julio Jones WR Alabama
3 91 Akeem Dent LB Georgia
5 145 Jacquizz Rodgers RB Oregon State
6 192 Matt Bosher P Miami (Fla.)
7 210 Andrew Jackson G Fresno State
7 230 Cliff Matthews DE South Carolina
2010 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 19 Sean Weatherspoon OLB Missouri
3 83 Corey Peters DT Kentucky
3 98 Mike Johnson G Alabama
4 117 Joe Hawley C Nevada-Las Vegas
5 135 Dominique Franks DB Oklahoma
5 165 Kerry Meier WR Kansas
6 171 Shann Schillinger DB Montana
2009 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 24 Peria Jerry DT Mississippi
2 55 William Moore DB Missouri
3 90 Chris Owens DB San Jose State
4 125 Lawrence Sidbury DE Richmond
5 138 William Middleton DB Furman
5 156 Garrett Reynolds T North Carolina
6 176 Spencer Adkins LB Miami (Fla.)
7 210 Vance Walker DT Georgia Tech
2008 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 3 Matt Ryan QB Boston College
1 21 Sam Baker T USC
2 37 Curtis Lofton MLB Oklahoma
3 68 Chevis Jackson CB Louisiana State
3 84 Harry Douglas WR Louisville
3 98 Thomas DeCoud FS California
5 138 Robert James MLB Arizona State
5 154 Kroy Biermann DE Montana
6 172 Thomas Brown RB Georgia
7 212 Wilrey Fontenot CB Arizona
7 232 Keith Zinger TE Louisiana State
2007 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
1 8 Jamaal Anderson DE Arkansas
2 39 Justin Blalock G Texas
2 41 Chris Houston CB Arkansas
3 75 Laurent Robinson WR Illinois State
4 109 Stephen Nicholas LB South Florida
4 133 Martrez Milner TE Georgia
6 185 Trey Lewis DT Washburn
6 194 David Irons CB Auburn
6 198 Doug Datish C Ohio State
6 203 Daren Stone DB Maine
7 244 Jason Snelling RB Virginia
2006 - Atlanta Falcons
RD SEL # PLAYER POSITION SCHOOL
2 37 Jimmy Williams CB Virginia Tech
3 79 Jerious Norwood RB Mississippi State
5 139 Quinn Ojinnaka T Syracuse
6 184 Adam Jennings WR Fresno State
7 223 D.J. Shockley QB Georgia

Re: Are Loomis /Payton as good as their draft reputation?
 

Between 2004-2008:

31.70 is the percentage of drafted players on the roster
19.50 is the percentage of players drafted who are actually starters
7.30 is the percentage of drafted pro bowl players
78.75 is the winning percentage

For which team?

3 in 10 are still on the roster. 2 in 10 actually start.

For a team with a near 80% winning mark over the 4 years in question?

That's Bill Belichik and the New England Patriots.

13 teams managed to keep 50% or more of their drafter players on the roster (maybe many of those rosters sucked). 36.4 was the highest percentage of drafted starters. The rest of the league was below that. Over the 4 years, the Patriots had the highest winning percentage.

For the Saints over the 4 years, 4 in 10 make the roster and 3 in 10 start.

It's a crap shoot Danno - at best an educated gamble. Still a gamble any way you slice it.