Stats are evil

bignic26 · 03-24-2005, 11:06 AM

Maybe there are three things that will set people off, Brooks, Horn, and those pesky little stats. :smile_argue:

shadowdrinker · 03-24-2005, 11:10 AM

Let me try to explain my position on this matter...

Stats...They are simplay a number...they tell how much production was gained in specific catagories...normally, The higher those numbers, the better the player...

Hear and determination, and all that unseen stuff of course is unnotable, but..it is in a way..comparable..let me explain..

Sullivan did not go to the Pro Bowl..this may come a quite a shock to many who adhere to the idea that \'\'talent\'\' is all that matters...and Horn did infact go to the Pro Bowl...

Does this mean Horn has more talent than Sully/..not exactly..but, it would be a fair assumption...

Stats do not tell the entire story, but..without heart, and desire, you won\'t see players putting up good stats to begin with...

A player won\'t lazily make his way into a Pro Bowl...a player won\'t accidentally get 1000 yards rushing...and it\'s not a mistake to say..The players who get more yards, infact wanted it more than other players...even if only for a week, month, or however long...

As long as His numbers are better that day..He was the better player that day...whether He had more Heart, more luck, whatever it is...the number can\'t be expected to tell you everything...It\'s only a tool to make estimations...and most of the time, it is very effective at making those estimations..otherwise, they would be disregarded by Coaches and Players..and I can assure you, they are not...

bignic26 · 03-24-2005, 11:31 AM

Great point Shadow, that pretty much sums it all up. Horn has more talent than Sully. We can all agree on that.

Danno · 03-24-2005, 12:04 PM

As long as His numbers are better that day..He was the better player that day...

So the next time we play carolina, and they decide to quadruple cover Horn all day, and Talman Gardner catches 8 balls, 4 TD\'s only because he is completely uncovered, I guess you\'d consider Gardner a better player than Horn?
I don\'t agree with that at all. It doesn\'t make sense to me.

WhoDat · 03-24-2005, 12:14 PM

I think that might be a tad on the extreme side there Danno.

That\'s a myopic view of statistical data. You\'re right in saying that they do not tell the whole story.

But then, they also provide convincing evidence too. Darren Howard had more sacks than Charles Grant and Will Smith despite being injured and playing in fewer games than both, and also lining up inside at DT on numerous ocassions, where those other two did not. Therefore, Howard is a better DE (certainly a more productive one) than Grant and Smith.

People on this board with argue that - based on what other than pure opinion?

shadowdrinker · 03-24-2005, 12:22 PM

People on this board with argue that - based on what other than pure opinion? [/quote:f3c2f30cfd]

That\'s the key...That\'s the only real variable in any Football discusson..Personal Opinion...

Some will side this way, other\'s that way..doesn\'t matter...cuz all are wrong beneath my mighty fortress of ...oh..nevermind..

Danno · 03-24-2005, 12:22 PM

I think that might be a tad on the extreme side there Danno.

That\'s a myopic view of statistical data. You\'re right in saying that they do not tell the whole story.

Thats not just myopic, it others-opic too.

Just because I use an extreme example to illustrate a point doesn\'t make the point invalid.
Saying that player X is better than Player Y just because of his stats that day is shortsighted (or myopic if you will).

Yes, I had to look it up.

[Edited on 24/3/2005 by Danno]

shadowdrinker · 03-24-2005, 12:32 PM

\'\'Saying that player X is better than Player Y just because of his stats that day is shortsighted\'\'

True, IF the scenario is completly uncircumstantial...which Football is not...

If a player performs better than anyone else on his team that day..He is the best player that day, Heck..He might even get a gameball..

If Horn gets 150 yards, 2 td\'s...and Deuce gets in turn, 150 yards 2 td\'s...who is the better player?...circumstances will determine ..but can only be defined through personal opinion....

Would you rather have a guy who is 2 inches taller, or a guy who is 2/10 faster?..what variable would define your choice...how He plays against certain scenarios?..His Age?..his weight?...

When it comes right down to it..Stats are infact very telling..and can be used to determine many things that remain unseen to the eyes...but..in the end..It all comes down to Personal opinion...

Tobias-Reiper · 03-24-2005, 12:37 PM

..it is a shame that the usual suspects come threads like this one, which could be very interesting to discuss, and destroy them with the same old tired AB stuff.

..Anyway, in an attempt to bring some good discussion back:

Say you have 2 RBs...
In a full 16 game season:
RB \"X\" averages 100 yds per game and 4.5 yards per carry.
RB \"Y\" averages 80 yds per game and 3.5 yards per carry.

Who is the better RB?

shadowdrinker · 03-24-2005, 12:42 PM

There woukd have to be more specific info provided..

Like how many games have they played?..how many td\'s?..receiving yards...yac?...broken tackles...

03-24-2005, 11:06 AM	#31
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122	Stats are evil Maybe there are three things that will set people off, Brooks, Horn, and those pesky little stats. :smile_argue:
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122

03-24-2005, 11:10 AM	#32
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Stats are evil Let me try to explain my position on this matter... Stats...They are simplay a number...they tell how much production was gained in specific catagories...normally, The higher those numbers, the better the player... Hear and determination, and all that unseen stuff of course is unnotable, but..it is in a way..comparable..let me explain.. Sullivan did not go to the Pro Bowl..this may come a quite a shock to many who adhere to the idea that \'\'talent\'\' is all that matters...and Horn did infact go to the Pro Bowl... Does this mean Horn has more talent than Sully/..not exactly..but, it would be a fair assumption... Stats do not tell the entire story, but..without heart, and desire, you won\'t see players putting up good stats to begin with... A player won\'t lazily make his way into a Pro Bowl...a player won\'t accidentally get 1000 yards rushing...and it\'s not a mistake to say..The players who get more yards, infact wanted it more than other players...even if only for a week, month, or however long... As long as His numbers are better that day..He was the better player that day...whether He had more Heart, more luck, whatever it is...the number can\'t be expected to tell you everything...It\'s only a tool to make estimations...and most of the time, it is very effective at making those estimations..otherwise, they would be disregarded by Coaches and Players..and I can assure you, they are not...
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

03-24-2005, 11:31 AM	#33
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122	Stats are evil Great point Shadow, that pretty much sums it all up. Horn has more talent than Sully. We can all agree on that.
bignic26 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 122

03-24-2005, 12:04 PM	#34
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,647	Stats are evil As long as His numbers are better that day..He was the better player that day... So the next time we play carolina, and they decide to quadruple cover Horn all day, and Talman Gardner catches 8 balls, 4 TD\'s only because he is completely uncovered, I guess you\'d consider Gardner a better player than Horn? I don\'t agree with that at all. It doesn\'t make sense to me.

03-24-2005, 12:14 PM	#35
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Stats are evil I think that might be a tad on the extreme side there Danno. That\'s a myopic view of statistical data. You\'re right in saying that they do not tell the whole story. But then, they also provide convincing evidence too. Darren Howard had more sacks than Charles Grant and Will Smith despite being injured and playing in fewer games than both, and also lining up inside at DT on numerous ocassions, where those other two did not. Therefore, Howard is a better DE (certainly a more productive one) than Grant and Smith. People on this board with argue that - based on what other than pure opinion?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

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03-24-2005, 12:22 PM	#36
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Stats are evil People on this board with argue that - based on what other than pure opinion? [/quote:f3c2f30cfd] That\'s the key...That\'s the only real variable in any Football discusson..Personal Opinion... Some will side this way, other\'s that way..doesn\'t matter...cuz all are wrong beneath my mighty fortress of ...oh..nevermind..
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

03-24-2005, 12:32 PM	#38
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Stats are evil \'\'Saying that player X is better than Player Y just because of his stats that day is shortsighted\'\' True, IF the scenario is completly uncircumstantial...which Football is not... If a player performs better than anyone else on his team that day..He is the best player that day, Heck..He might even get a gameball.. If Horn gets 150 yards, 2 td\'s...and Deuce gets in turn, 150 yards 2 td\'s...who is the better player?...circumstances will determine ..but can only be defined through personal opinion.... Would you rather have a guy who is 2 inches taller, or a guy who is 2/10 faster?..what variable would define your choice...how He plays against certain scenarios?..His Age?..his weight?... When it comes right down to it..Stats are infact very telling..and can be used to determine many things that remain unseen to the eyes...but..in the end..It all comes down to Personal opinion...
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

03-24-2005, 12:37 PM	#39
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Stats are evil ..it is a shame that the usual suspects come threads like this one, which could be very interesting to discuss, and destroy them with the same old tired AB stuff. ..Anyway, in an attempt to bring some good discussion back: Say you have 2 RBs... In a full 16 game season: RB \"X\" averages 100 yds per game and 4.5 yards per carry. RB \"Y\" averages 80 yds per game and 3.5 yards per carry. Who is the better RB?

03-24-2005, 12:42 PM	#40
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Stats are evil There woukd have to be more specific info provided.. Like how many games have they played?..how many td\'s?..receiving yards...yac?...broken tackles...
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517