saintfan

I agree that alternative sources should be developed and implemented, but have you seen what they do to the environment mining for the materials to make batteries for electric cars? Those sites look like moonscapes, and the batteries themselves only last (we think) about three years. Those discarded batteries become hazardous waste. It still takes oil to build them. Perhaps there is a net gain in CO2 emissions from people driving their gas-powered cars, but I'm not sure it would be substantial enough all things considered.

And those battery manufactures will be getting all kinds of subsidies from the government just like oil companies. They already are.

Lithium is the way this will go, and mining for lithium - or anything else for that matter - is brutal on the environment...brutal...period...not up for debate.

Nearly half the world's supply that we are aware of is in South America. The new "middle east"? Who knows? As is the case with any other natural resource, the supply of lithium is not endless. I guess my point is that electric cars sooth the liberal agenda as it relates to those big 'ol bad 'ol mean 'ol oil companies, but they aren't the end all be all either. Many if not all of the problems with the oil industry will migrate to lithium or whatever else is derived because the root cause for those issues will not have been changed. There ARE ramifications, and they are not petty.

I ride a motorcycle and have considered the 'electric' options, but they're too heavy, don't go fast enough, and don't last long enough on a charge...

It's not as easy as some want to believe.

C'mon Man...

SmashMouth

And China is buying all all resources of Lithium it can !!!

saintfan

I am going to exit stage left. I don't have conversations with most people about religion because most people simply believe what they believe and aren't very interested in WHY someone else believes what THEY believe.

I'm different. I enjoy learning about why someone believes a certain thing. Oh I used to argue it with venom, but I got a little older, a little wiser, and learned that it is far more interesting to openly debate such a topic with someone than it is to get into a flat-footed argument with them.

As for the price of oil and further a gallon of gas, there is no point in me arguing with someone who isn't willing to accept facts. There is no point in me arguing with someone who, to bolster their point, quotes Wikipedia and uber-liberal Op Ed nonsense. I cannot have a discussion, and I cannot hope to teach or explain. It is true that some people cannot be helped. This is true of the ultra-conservative as well as the ultra-liberal in the political arena, just so we're clear.

I do want to speak about the attempt to insinuate that I am purposefully misleading people about peak oil. I am doing no such thing. This is a sad tactic that is being used here by someone who is trying to win an argument with old statistics and no experience in the field AS WELL AS no 1st or even 2nd hand insight. The only knowledge you have of that which you preach is from Government sites and other's who's political agenda is easily exposed with little or no effort. If you're comfortable with that then fine by me. I prefer real information as opposed to piling on to some agenda because I like the sound of their catch phrase.

This discussion was (before it became bastardized) about why gas prices are so high. It was asserted by my primary foe in this debate that Peak Oil was all anyone needed to know. It is MY asserting that Peak Oil has precisely nothing to do with why gas prices are all over the place OR why we are about to break pricing records across the country at the pump. NOT ONE SINGLE THING DOES PEAK OIL HAVE TO DO WITH IT. It was later stated by my counter in this discussion that domestic drilling was the answer, but this came after my challenger blasted another poster for calling out Pelosi for her disdain for increased domestic drilling. Clearly you can't figure out whether to scratch your watch or wind your ass, so why waste any more of my time trying to get you educated when you're just here for the fight?

I have stated that there is no shortage of oil. There isn't. I stand by that statement because of a number of things I know, but mostly because (a) API is certain (and they are the pros) there are as of yet undiscovered resources, and in fact every now and then this proves to be true and is easily observed by anyone who's paying attention and (b) I happen to know two people who specifically drill for oil for their living. They went to school for it. They are working in the industry every day. They have access to information none of this hogwash being posted here as evidence of a point has. THOSE people tell me its a farce. It's a scare tactic. It's all by design. I have other friends and relatives who do or have done everything from pipeline work in refineries and the middle east to off shore drilling in the Gulf of Mexico, The North Sea, South America, and other places all over the world. I believe these men because they have no dog in the race. I believe them because they have perspective. I believe them because I've frequently listened to them counter the scare tactics the Politicians put forth - aimed at people JUST LIKE YOU. Sadly it works, but it's like the Jedi mind trick. It only works on the weak minded.

Now, Who_Dat_Cat, let me tell you a little something about me personally. I don't watch 'faux' news as you call it. I don't watch CNN. I watch local news on KRON 4 and ONLY because I want to know what the weather is going to do and because I think Justine is HOT and sometimes to learn about the latest violent death that you also don't believe happens here in the Bay Area. That's it. You have mistaken me for a extreme conservative, and I can assure you I am not. I watch PBS with my kids and I listen to NPR every morning. But where I get most of the information that shapes my opinion on things is by talking to people who know more about them than I do. I've had professors who tried to settle me in to their agenda - their view of the world. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I'm smart enough to see that coming. It's too bad that you and others like you are not. I have been extremely fortunate to have grown up on a military base and to have worked in jobs that have allowed me to get to know and to learn from people all over the world. So when I want to know how the Russians felt about American during the cold war I talk to some Russians. When I want to know what India thinks about America in the middle east I go ask an Indian. If I wanted to know what an uber-liberal thought about something I could just ask you. You, on the other hand, look to politically-laced government propaganda and Liberal Op Ed pieces written by legal professionals who found ultra-left-wing broadcasting entities.

Network TV is another great place for the liberal agenda. No, your agenda is not new to me. If you never spoke another word to me I'm fairly certain I could peg your stance on just about anything, because all I'd have to do is turn on the CBS, NBC, or ABC news casts. On the other hand, you make far too many assumptions to have any hope of responding in kind. You, if I may be so blunt, are indoctrinated - completely and irreversibly I'm afraid. That's fine. Lot's of people are. It's sad, but you are fed the liberal agenda and you swallow it whole just as many people are fed the conservative agenda and swallow that whole.

I'll finish now, but before I go I'll just add this one thing: There is exactly ZERO factual evidence that proves Global Warming. In fact many of the predictions made by these scientists you speak of have failed to materialize and in some cases are even reversed. I'm not saying we shouldn't protect the environment. That's a worthy effort to be sure. I teach my kids to recycle. I teach my kids about conservation. I teach my kids about respecting forests and the wildlife that lives there. Matter of fact, there are a pair of endangered owls living on a construction site that MY KIDS reported to the Brentwood Press a few weeks ago. Look it up if you don't believe me.

No. You don't know a damn thing about me lady except what I have offered to you directly. And you don't know a damn thing about oil either. But that's okay. As an old Italian lady once told me, "It takes all kinds to make a world." Wise words indeed.

C'mon Man...

WHO_DAT_CAT

So, you only believe industry sources ...... OK, here is OPEC's World Oil Outlook for 2011.

In OPEC's World Oil Outlook for 2011, page 72, Figure 1.25 shows the drop off of OPEC crude oil supply starting in the 70s and going to 2035. They say it very clearly: "OPEC crude share in total world oil supply: 1973 51%, 2010 34%, 2035 36%", while, this report shows that demand will grow in the future, OPEC producing nations will only supply 36% of world oil supply in 2035. The chart also shows that "other sources of oil" will replace OPEC crude.

If OPEC had the oil to sell, tell me SaintFan, why would OPEC be projecting that "other sources of oil" will fill the gap in oil supply in 2035? Don't you think that OPEC would want to sell 51% of oil, instead of 36%, to meet demand, if they could? I think they would.

As I mentioned above, we are now beginning to extract oil from other, dramatically more expensive, fossil fuel sources, such as shale and oil sands. OPEC's report discusses it in detail, and uses these "other sources" to replace the loss from OPEC crude sources. They state, on page 69, in pertinent part: "...increases in conventional supply from the Caspian and Brazil, as well as steady increases in biofuels, oil sands and shale oil will more than compensate for expected decreases in mature regions." These other sources and their development will increase prices for gas due to the higher cost of development of these unconventional sources when compared to cost of production in "mature regions". These mature regions are where the oil reservoirs are being emptied. So, SaintFan, you appear to be the one listening to unreliable sources. But, I know you have a problem with scientific sources which you define as "leftist propaganda". But, tell me SaintFan, how is OPEC's report "left-wing propaganda"?

BTW, OPEC's report is based on science and compilation of facts and uses statistical modeling to come up with these numbers and projections. They are not quotes from your ex-brother in law, or other "people you know" who work in the oil industry.

And, interestingly, this report from OPEC, mentions global warming and climate change and takes it into consideration in their projections.

And, Danno, it makes no sense to feel sad about the energy predicament we are in .... but you can do something about it. First, get educated about this issue and then work hard to reduce your fossil fuel consumption, and reduce your carbon footprint. Then you can support subsidies for energy development of non-carbon-based energy sources.

Did I mention that California is full of generous, forgiving people?

skymike

....and fill your tank with rainbows...

"get educated".... lol.
get real.

saintfan

I apologize, but I really think you're stupid. You've created this argument, so far from the original topic, I guess, because you wanted a fight? NOTHING TO DO WITH GAS PRICES...ZERO...but I'll address your latest nonsensical post.

First: You won't believe anything "Big Oil" tells you about, well, "Big Oil", but you WILL be more than happy to quote left wing propaganda. And yes, you have - it's documented, so let's please not bait and switch. You were busted. Accept it and move on. If you want to prove your point then prove it, but don't deflect because your sources suck. It makes you look foolish.

Now, so you won't buy in to what Exxon or Conoco or Shell tells you, but you will believe OPEC? You won't hear it when I tell you what people I know who work in the business tell me, but you'll believe so much so some uber-liberal lawyer who's history is so much about making a buck off people like you that he is transparent - someone without a lick of sense on the topic of discussion - you buy his crap and use it as evidence? You'd actually read and believe that rhetoric over some people who actually work in the industry - not the execs but ground-level people with decades of experience. You won't believe them? You are severely broken my dear. Pills might help...or in your case maybe we're talking about too many pills already. Hell I don't know. You're all over the map...

Anyway, I'm curious. Evidence of what, exactly? What is it, specifically, that you're trying to prove with all this crap, because I'm not so sure anymore?

Initially we were talking about why Gas is so high. I've yet to see you say anything intelligent about that. The ONLY thing I've seen from you on the subject is that domestic drilling wouldn't help...oh, and then you said it would, but you don't have any proof...of either, really.

Now, you've used this issue of high gas prices to broadcast your "Peak Oil/Global Warming" agenda, a typical liberal-extremist tactic, and, unfortunately, I and other's have played along. The truth is I enjoy it, so let's continue.

Let's look at what OPEC says. OPEC says we don't have as much oil as we used to have and thus our percentage of the worlds oil will diminish.

Now, you post this as some sort of evidence and call me out as if to say, "THERE Saintfan. SEE. I TOLD YOU SO". But you didn't tell me a damn thing. In fact you supported what I've been saying from the very beginning you're just too stupid to know it. Of COURSE their mature wells are going to run out. What a brilliant person you are for pointing that out.
Hmmm, there's this great big hole in the ground, and its got all the gooey stuff in it, and I'm going start removing all the gooey stuff with the expectation that I will never be able to empty the hole.
You are SOME rocket scientist, which is a good thing, because you still don't know a damn thing about oil. In spite of all I've told you and all you've read, you are still too dumb to see past your own agenda.

You see, there are plenty as of yet undiscovered, traditional oil resources around the globe. This says nothing about natural gas and other resources which are really off topic, but since you can't seem to find or stay on a single topic (sigh) I'll play along...again...

In fact, if you've read the WHOLE OPEC Report as opposed to zooming straight to the part that interested you - the part that you thought might help you save some face - you would have read this little nugget right here:

I'm posting this particular part because...uh...

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO BEAT INTO YOUR SILLY LITTLE BRAIN. Let's try it again...only this time I'll ONLY quote a SINGLE sentence from your source of 'evidence' so as to keep it...well...I mean I just can't dumb this down any more:

There will be no shortage of oil for the foreseeable future.

So, according to your 'trusted' source, which I'd like to point out to the group is freaking OPEC, that as far as they can see (this is the foreseeable future) there will be no shortage. No shortage means, I think we can all agree, that supply will pace demand.

That's what I've been saying is it not? Have I not been clear and directly to that point? That's what the people I've told you about have been saying. It would seem my sources - those with decades of experience - kinda more or less have a clue huh? How old are you? If you're under 30 then maybe you just haven't had your awakening. If you're over 40 then kill yourself now because you don't have an excuse to be this effing stupid on this or any other topic that truly interests you. Please do NOT reproduce.

Now, since the initial debate - before you turned it into a liberal preach about "peak oil" - was about the price of gas, I'm going to quote your source of information again as it pertains to the initial topic:

Were you trying to tell me something about "ECON 101"? Didn't I tell you the price for a gallon of gas has as much to do with speculation (and probably more) than anything else, all factors considered as much as is possible? Isn't that pretty much what I said? Didn't you tell me it was all about supply and demand and that speculation had little or nothing to do with it? We need a qualifier I think. Tell me, how much is 2+2? If you're answer isn't 4 then I'm just not sure what to tell you. Maybe the answer is 5 on your planet, but here on Earth, the answer is 4. FOUR.

Why, I do believe that's pretty much what I said. Let's all move along...slowly, so Who_Dat_Cat can keep up...

Now, let me address this part of your rant:
In fact what OPEC says right out of the gate is this:
In other words, we have all this data here, and we've done our best, but the truth is we really don't know. If you real the WHOLE report, you'll see frequently that assumptions are made and in fact are acknowledged. What you want to represent as some end all document (1) really isn't anything of the sort and (2) actually supports just about everything I've been saying, as much as it can be proved, because there IS plenty of assumption going on. The different between you and me is I'm listening to people who have a clue and you're listening to people with an agenda - or misrepresenting data at every turn.

Regardless, I think we've learned something here today. I think we've learned that even OPEC says supply of oil will pace demand. I think we've leaned that even OPEC says that speculation is largely responsible for prices. WDC, what I hope you've learned is that I'm not trying to 'spin' anything. I hope you can recognize that I'm simply not going to believe the world is flat, or that the sky is falling, or that we're all going to die just because some politician or political organization or even API or OPEC say so. I want proof. I want substantial evidence, and when that's not possible I want the opinions of qualified people, and I want to hear those qualified people agree, because when they don't agree, I smell an agenda. You understand?

Now please, if you want to discuss whether or not we're all going to die because we're running out of oil then start that thread. If you want to discuss global warming (not theoretical carbon omissions from an OPEC report, because most rational people are going to destroy any argument you make about global warming if that's the best you can do) then start that thread.

THIS thread was supposed to be about why gas prices are so high. I'm fairly certain you aren't qualified to opine on the subject - no, at this point I'm 100% certain you are not qualified, but knock yourself out if you'd like, but take your liberal agenda on Peak Oil to its own thread were you can get schooled yet again if you'd like.

Oh, and have a nice day.

C'mon Man...

SmashMouth

There's way more than your fair share of CO2 emanating from this discussion. I can feel the Global Warming just from this. It's your fault it's 85 degrees in Chicago today. Can you contribute $500 to BnG to offset your carbon footprint?

In all seriousness .... Haven't you all had enough yet?

saintfan

I never tire of the truth.

lee909

Just announce a 3p per litre increase in the uk.

foreverfan

Coming to a town near you.

Face it... your dollar won't by anything anymore. Wait till they try to pay off the 15 trillion debt with inflated dollars. The system will crash worse than 2008. Once the world wakes up and believe me they will, and stop taking the dollar, the federal reserve is going to add zeros to certain peoples bank accounts (called printing money only easier) and own the rest of the country.