I Want to Understand Why Gas Prices are So Damned High

skymike · 03-21-2012, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT

...get educated about this issue and then work hard to reduce your fossil fuel consumption, and reduce your carbon footprint. ....

....and fill your tank with rainbows...

"get educated".... lol.
get real.

lee909 · 03-21-2012, 04:44 PM

Just announce a 3p per litre increase in the uk.

saintfan · 03-21-2012, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT

So, you only believe industry sources ...... OK, here is OPEC's World Oil Outlook for 2011.

In OPEC's World Oil Outlook for 2011, page 72, Figure 1.25 shows the drop off of OPEC crude oil supply starting in the 70s and going to 2035. They say it very clearly: "OPEC crude share in total world oil supply: 1973 51%, 2010 34%, 2035 36%", while, this report shows that demand will grow in the future, OPEC producing nations will only supply 36% of world oil supply in 2035. The chart also shows that "other sources of oil" will replace OPEC crude.

If OPEC had the oil to sell, tell me SaintFan, why would OPEC be projecting that "other sources of oil" will fill the gap in oil supply in 2035? Don't you think that OPEC would want to sell 51% of oil, instead of 36%, to meet demand, if they could? I think they would.

As I mentioned above, we are now beginning to extract oil from other, dramatically more expensive, fossil fuel sources, such as shale and oil sands. OPEC's report discusses it in detail, and uses these "other sources" to replace the loss from OPEC crude sources. They state, on page 69, in pertinent part: "...increases in conventional supply from the Caspian and Brazil, as well as steady increases in biofuels, oil sands and shale oil will more than compensate for expected decreases in mature regions." These other sources and their development will increase prices for gas due to the higher cost of development of these unconventional sources when compared to cost of production in "mature regions". These mature regions are where the oil reservoirs are being emptied. So, SaintFan, you appear to be the one listening to unreliable sources. But, I know you have a problem with scientific sources which you define as "leftist propaganda". But, tell me SaintFan, how is OPEC's report "left-wing propaganda"?

BTW, OPEC's report is based on science and compilation of facts and uses statistical modeling to come up with these numbers and projections. They are not quotes from your ex-brother in law, or other "people you know" who work in the oil industry.

And, interestingly, this report from OPEC, mentions global warming and climate change and takes it into consideration in their projections.

And, Danno, it makes no sense to feel sad about the energy predicament we are in .... but you can do something about it. First, get educated about this issue and then work hard to reduce your fossil fuel consumption, and reduce your carbon footprint. Then you can support subsidies for energy development of non-carbon-based energy sources.

I apologize, but I really think you're stupid. You've created this argument, so far from the original topic, I guess, because you wanted a fight? NOTHING TO DO WITH GAS PRICES...ZERO...but I'll address your latest nonsensical post.

First: You won't believe anything "Big Oil" tells you about, well, "Big Oil", but you WILL be more than happy to quote left wing propaganda. And yes, you have - it's documented, so let's please not bait and switch. You were busted. Accept it and move on. If you want to prove your point then prove it, but don't deflect because your sources suck. It makes you look foolish.

Now, so you won't buy in to what Exxon or Conoco or Shell tells you, but you will believe OPEC? You won't hear it when I tell you what people I know who work in the business tell me, but you'll believe so much so some uber-liberal lawyer who's history is so much about making a buck off people like you that he is transparent - someone without a lick of sense on the topic of discussion - you buy his crap and use it as evidence? You'd actually read and believe that rhetoric over some people who actually work in the industry - not the execs but ground-level people with decades of experience. You won't believe them? You are severely broken my dear. Pills might help...or in your case maybe we're talking about too many pills already. Hell I don't know. You're all over the map...

Anyway, I'm curious. Evidence of what, exactly? What is it, specifically, that you're trying to prove with all this crap, because I'm not so sure anymore?

Initially we were talking about why Gas is so high. I've yet to see you say anything intelligent about that. The ONLY thing I've seen from you on the subject is that domestic drilling wouldn't help...oh, and then you said it would, but you don't have any proof...of either, really.

Now, you've used this issue of high gas prices to broadcast your "Peak Oil/Global Warming" agenda, a typical liberal-extremist tactic, and, unfortunately, I and other's have played along. The truth is I enjoy it, so let's continue.

Let's look at what OPEC says. OPEC says we don't have as much oil as we used to have and thus our percentage of the worlds oil will diminish.

Now, you post this as some sort of evidence and call me out as if to say, "THERE Saintfan. SEE. I TOLD YOU SO". But you didn't tell me a damn thing. In fact you supported what I've been saying from the very beginning you're just too stupid to know it. Of COURSE their mature wells are going to run out. What a brilliant person you are for pointing that out.
Hmmm, there's this great big hole in the ground, and its got all the gooey stuff in it, and I'm going start removing all the gooey stuff with the expectation that I will never be able to empty the hole.
You are SOME rocket scientist, which is a good thing, because you still don't know a damn thing about oil. In spite of all I've told you and all you've read, you are still too dumb to see past your own agenda.

You see, there are plenty as of yet undiscovered, traditional oil resources around the globe. This says nothing about natural gas and other resources which are really off topic, but since you can't seem to find or stay on a single topic (sigh) I'll play along...again...

In fact, if you've read the WHOLE OPEC Report as opposed to zooming straight to the part that interested you - the part that you thought might help you save some face - you would have read this little nugget right here:

The WOO also shows that the world has enough oil resources to meet demand and satisfy consumer needs for decades to come. Estimates of ultimately recoverable resources continue to rise. Technology continues to extend its reach, with new areas and plays being opened to exploration and new countries becoming producers. There will be no shortage of oil for the foreseeable future.

I'm posting this particular part because...uh...

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO BEAT INTO YOUR SILLY LITTLE BRAIN. Let's try it again...only this time I'll ONLY quote a SINGLE sentence from your source of 'evidence' so as to keep it...well...I mean I just can't dumb this down any more:

There will be no shortage of oil for the foreseeable future.

So, according to your 'trusted' source, which I'd like to point out to the group is freaking OPEC, that as far as they can see (this is the foreseeable future) there will be no shortage. No shortage means, I think we can all agree, that supply will pace demand.

That's what I've been saying is it not? Have I not been clear and directly to that point? That's what the people I've told you about have been saying. It would seem my sources - those with decades of experience - kinda more or less have a clue huh? How old are you? If you're under 30 then maybe you just haven't had your awakening. If you're over 40 then kill yourself now because you don't have an excuse to be this effing stupid on this or any other topic that truly interests you. Please do NOT reproduce.

Now, since the initial debate - before you turned it into a liberal preach about "peak oil" - was about the price of gas, I'm going to quote your source of information again as it pertains to the initial topic:

Another challenge relates to the functioning of financial markets. Excessive volatility and excessive speculation remain a concern. Financial markets fulfil critical price discovery and risk transfer roles. But they can be distorted, so that they become detached from supply and demand fundamentals. This was seen in the early part of the year, when large price fluctuations were driven by speculative activity.

Were you trying to tell me something about "ECON 101"? Didn't I tell you the price for a gallon of gas has as much to do with speculation (and probably more) than anything else, all factors considered as much as is possible? Isn't that pretty much what I said? Didn't you tell me it was all about supply and demand and that speculation had little or nothing to do with it? We need a qualifier I think. Tell me, how much is 2+2? If you're answer isn't 4 then I'm just not sure what to tell you. Maybe the answer is 5 on your planet, but here on Earth, the answer is 4. FOUR.

Why, I do believe that's pretty much what I said. Let's all move along...slowly, so Who_Dat_Cat can keep up...

Now, let me address this part of your rant:

BTW, OPEC's report is based on science and compilation of facts and uses statistical modeling to come up with these numbers and projections. They are not quotes from your ex-brother in law, or other "people you know" who work in the oil industry.

In fact what OPEC says right out of the gate is this:

Whilst reasonable efforts have been made to ensure the accuracy of the Content of this publication, the OPEC Secretariat makes no warranties or representations as to its accuracy, currency or comprehensiveness and assumes no liability or responsibility for any error or omission and/or for any loss arising in connection with or attributable to any action or decision taken as a result of using or relying on the Content of this publication

In other words, we have all this data here, and we've done our best, but the truth is we really don't know. If you real the WHOLE report, you'll see frequently that assumptions are made and in fact are acknowledged. What you want to represent as some end all document (1) really isn't anything of the sort and (2) actually supports just about everything I've been saying, as much as it can be proved, because there IS plenty of assumption going on. The different between you and me is I'm listening to people who have a clue and you're listening to people with an agenda - or misrepresenting data at every turn.

Regardless, I think we've learned something here today. I think we've learned that even OPEC says supply of oil will pace demand. I think we've leaned that even OPEC says that speculation is largely responsible for prices. WDC, what I hope you've learned is that I'm not trying to 'spin' anything. I hope you can recognize that I'm simply not going to believe the world is flat, or that the sky is falling, or that we're all going to die just because some politician or political organization or even API or OPEC say so. I want proof. I want substantial evidence, and when that's not possible I want the opinions of qualified people, and I want to hear those qualified people agree, because when they don't agree, I smell an agenda. You understand?

Now please, if you want to discuss whether or not we're all going to die because we're running out of oil then start that thread. If you want to discuss global warming (not theoretical carbon omissions from an OPEC report, because most rational people are going to destroy any argument you make about global warming if that's the best you can do) then start that thread.

THIS thread was supposed to be about why gas prices are so high. I'm fairly certain you aren't qualified to opine on the subject - no, at this point I'm 100% certain you are not qualified, but knock yourself out if you'd like, but take your liberal agenda on Peak Oil to its own thread were you can get schooled yet again if you'd like.

Oh, and have a nice day.

SmashMouth · 03-21-2012, 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT

.... but you can do something about it. First, get educated about this issue and then work hard to reduce your fossil fuel consumption, and reduce your carbon footprint. Then you can support subsidies for energy development of non-carbon-based energy sources.

There's way more than your fair share of CO2 emanating from this discussion. I can feel the Global Warming just from this. It's your fault it's 85 degrees in Chicago today. Can you contribute $500 to BnG to offset your carbon footprint?

In all seriousness ....

Haven't you all had enough yet?

saintfan · 03-21-2012, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

There's way more than your fair share of CO2 emanating from this discussion. I can feel the Global Warming just from this. It's your fault it's 85 degrees in Chicago today. Can you contribute $500 to BnG to offset your carbon footprint?

In all seriousness .... Haven't you all had enough yet?

I never tire of the truth.

Crusader · 03-22-2012, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by skymike

Oil makes the world go round, honey.

Make up all the imaginary white collar capitalist bogeymen you want.

For every one of your straw men, there are 1,000 "good" people who have JOBS because of Oil. Everything you use is made of OIL. Everything you need is transported by OIL.

If you can catch a ride to work on a unicorn, knock yourself out. Maybe you can fill your tank with rainbows.

But if you screw Oil, you screw all of us, and yourself...

.... as your Anointed One is about to learn.

-- now go back to your indoctrination sources and come tell us some more of your amazing "facts."

I don't believe that everything have to be transported by oil, less of all humans. Electric cars are getting rally good. I'd love to have a Chevy Volt or a hybrid like Toyota prius. Sure there will be oil for maybe 30-40 more years but if we all coninue driving like we do today and add that most everybody in India and China will gonna want a car there just will not be enough oil. IMHO the oil that is left is more needed for makine plastics etc than for powering motorcars.

SloMotion · 03-22-2012, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by Crusader

I don't believe that everything have to be transported by oil, less of all humans. Electric cars are getting rally good. I'd love to have a Chevy Volt or a hybrid like Toyota prius. Sure there will be oil for maybe 30-40 more years but if we all coninue driving like we do today and add that most everybody in India and China will gonna want a car there just will not be enough oil. IMHO the oil that is left is more needed for makine plastics etc than for powering motorcars.

You make a good point, but electric vehicles are not yet a viable option for the everyday consumer. I worked on the Volt platform and the rest of GM's alternative fuel vehicles and they're not as economical/reliable as GM would have you believe.

There has been a lot of pressure from the current Administration on the car companies to rush this technology to market, the result being an inferior, overpriced, under-engineered product. I'd rather have a golf cart then a Volt, seriously, or at least a Nissan Leaf.

From my point of view, the entire fuel infrastructure of a region/country is going to have to be uprgraded to allow for efficient, cost effective refueling of alternative fuel vehicles, regardless of what alternative fuel they may use (hydrogen, natural gas, electric), before this method of transportation is ever going to catch on.

Myself, personally ... I don't mind taking a bus or using mass-transit and love cities like WashDC, Tokyo, Rome, et... where you can get around basically without having to own a vehicle, but most people want their cars and until it's affordable and convenient, alternative fuel vehicles are for those with the money wanting to make a statement.

Raising fuel prices as a means to encourage people to use alternative energy sources, which I feel is what they're basically doing now, when they are not economically available to the masses does the exact opposite. As fuel prices rise, I see people just spending a larger portion of their budgets on fuel and cutting back on more and more on other necessities.

It's getting rough out here.

foreverfan · 03-22-2012, 08:45 AM

Coming to a town near you.

Face it... your dollar won't by anything anymore. Wait till they try to pay off the 15 trillion debt with inflated dollars. The system will crash worse than 2008. Once the world wakes up and believe me they will, and stop taking the dollar, the federal reserve is going to add zeros to certain peoples bank accounts (called printing money only easier) and own the rest of the country.

saintfan · 03-22-2012, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Crusader

I don't believe that everything have to be transported by oil, less of all humans. Electric cars are getting rally good. I'd love to have a Chevy Volt or a hybrid like Toyota prius. Sure there will be oil for maybe 30-40 more years but if we all coninue driving like we do today and add that most everybody in India and China will gonna want a car there just will not be enough oil. IMHO the oil that is left is more needed for makine plastics etc than for powering motorcars.

I agree that alternative sources should be developed and implemented, but have you seen what they do to the environment mining for the materials to make batteries for electric cars? Those sites look like moonscapes, and the batteries themselves only last (we think) about three years. Those discarded batteries become hazardous waste. It still takes oil to build them. Perhaps there is a net gain in CO2 emissions from people driving their gas-powered cars, but I'm not sure it would be substantial enough all things considered.

And those battery manufactures will be getting all kinds of subsidies from the government just like oil companies. They already are.

Lithium is the way this will go, and mining for lithium - or anything else for that matter - is brutal on the environment...brutal...period...not up for debate.

Nearly half the world's supply that we are aware of is in South America. The new "middle east"? Who knows? As is the case with any other natural resource, the supply of lithium is not endless. I guess my point is that electric cars sooth the liberal agenda as it relates to those big 'ol bad 'ol mean 'ol oil companies, but they aren't the end all be all either. Many if not all of the problems with the oil industry will migrate to lithium or whatever else is derived because the root cause for those issues will not have been changed. There ARE ramifications, and they are not petty.

I ride a motorcycle and have considered the 'electric' options, but they're too heavy, don't go fast enough, and don't last long enough on a charge...

It's not as easy as some want to believe.

SmashMouth · 03-22-2012, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

I agree that alternative sources should be developed and implemented, but have you seen what they do to the environment mining for the materials to make batteries for electric cars? Those sites look like moonscapes, and the batteries themselves only last (we think) about three years. Those discarded batteries become hazardous waste. It still takes oil to build them. Perhaps there is a net gain in CO2 emissions from people driving their gas-powered cars, but I'm not sure it would be substantial enough all things considered.

And those battery manufactures will be getting all kinds of subsidies from the government just like oil companies. They already are.

Lithium is the way this will go, and mining for lithium - or anything else for that matter - is brutal on the environment...brutal...period...not up for debate.

Nearly half the world's supply that we are aware of is in South America. The new "middle east"? Who knows? As is the case with any other natural resource, the supply of lithium is not endless. I guess my point is that electric cars sooth the liberal agenda as it relates to those big 'ol bad 'ol mean 'ol oil companies, but they aren't the end all be all either. Many if not all of the problems with the oil industry will migrate to lithium or whatever else is derived because the root cause for those issues will not have been changed. There ARE ramifications, and they are not petty.

I ride a motorcycle and have considered the 'electric' options, but they're too heavy, don't go fast enough, and don't last long enough on a charge...

It's not as easy as some want to believe.

And China is buying all all resources of Lithium it can !!!

03-21-2012, 06:14 AM	#31
skymike E. Side Cholo Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: The Barrio, H-town Posts: 6,089	Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT ...get educated about this issue and then work hard to reduce your fossil fuel consumption, and reduce your carbon footprint. .... ....and fill your tank with rainbows... "get educated".... lol. get real.

03-21-2012, 06:34 PM	#33
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT So, you only believe industry sources ...... OK, here is OPEC's World Oil Outlook for 2011. In OPEC's World Oil Outlook for 2011, page 72, Figure 1.25 shows the drop off of OPEC crude oil supply starting in the 70s and going to 2035. They say it very clearly: "OPEC crude share in total world oil supply: 1973 51%, 2010 34%, 2035 36%", while, this report shows that demand will grow in the future, OPEC producing nations will only supply 36% of world oil supply in 2035. The chart also shows that "other sources of oil" will replace OPEC crude. If OPEC had the oil to sell, tell me SaintFan, why would OPEC be projecting that "other sources of oil" will fill the gap in oil supply in 2035? Don't you think that OPEC would want to sell 51% of oil, instead of 36%, to meet demand, if they could? I think they would. As I mentioned above, we are now beginning to extract oil from other, dramatically more expensive, fossil fuel sources, such as shale and oil sands. OPEC's report discusses it in detail, and uses these "other sources" to replace the loss from OPEC crude sources. They state, on page 69, in pertinent part: "...increases in conventional supply from the Caspian and Brazil, as well as steady increases in biofuels, oil sands and shale oil will more than compensate for expected decreases in mature regions." These other sources and their development will increase prices for gas due to the higher cost of development of these unconventional sources when compared to cost of production in "mature regions". These mature regions are where the oil reservoirs are being emptied. So, SaintFan, you appear to be the one listening to unreliable sources. But, I know you have a problem with scientific sources which you define as "leftist propaganda". But, tell me SaintFan, how is OPEC's report "left-wing propaganda"? BTW, OPEC's report is based on science and compilation of facts and uses statistical modeling to come up with these numbers and projections. They are not quotes from your ex-brother in law, or other "people you know" who work in the oil industry. And, interestingly, this report from OPEC, mentions global warming and climate change and takes it into consideration in their projections. And, Danno, it makes no sense to feel sad about the energy predicament we are in .... but you can do something about it. First, get educated about this issue and then work hard to reduce your fossil fuel consumption, and reduce your carbon footprint. Then you can support subsidies for energy development of non-carbon-based energy sources. I apologize, but I really think you're stupid. You've created this argument, so far from the original topic, I guess, because you wanted a fight? NOTHING TO DO WITH GAS PRICES...ZERO...but I'll address your latest nonsensical post. First: You won't believe anything "Big Oil" tells you about, well, "Big Oil", but you WILL be more than happy to quote left wing propaganda. And yes, you have - it's documented, so let's please not bait and switch. You were busted. Accept it and move on. If you want to prove your point then prove it, but don't deflect because your sources suck. It makes you look foolish. Now, so you won't buy in to what Exxon or Conoco or Shell tells you, but you will believe OPEC? You won't hear it when I tell you what people I know who work in the business tell me, but you'll believe so much so some uber-liberal lawyer who's history is so much about making a buck off people like you that he is transparent - someone without a lick of sense on the topic of discussion - you buy his crap and use it as evidence? You'd actually read and believe that rhetoric over some people who actually work in the industry - not the execs but ground-level people with decades of experience. You won't believe them? You are severely broken my dear. Pills might help...or in your case maybe we're talking about too many pills already. Hell I don't know. You're all over the map... Anyway, I'm curious. Evidence of what, exactly? What is it, specifically, that you're trying to prove with all this crap, because I'm not so sure anymore? Initially we were talking about why Gas is so high. I've yet to see you say anything intelligent about that. The ONLY thing I've seen from you on the subject is that domestic drilling wouldn't help...oh, and then you said it would, but you don't have any proof...of either, really. Now, you've used this issue of high gas prices to broadcast your "Peak Oil/Global Warming" agenda, a typical liberal-extremist tactic, and, unfortunately, I and other's have played along. The truth is I enjoy it, so let's continue. Let's look at what OPEC says. OPEC says we don't have as much oil as we used to have and thus our percentage of the worlds oil will diminish. Now, you post this as some sort of evidence and call me out as if to say, "THERE Saintfan. SEE. I TOLD YOU SO". But you didn't tell me a damn thing. In fact you supported what I've been saying from the very beginning you're just too stupid to know it. Of COURSE their mature wells are going to run out. What a brilliant person you are for pointing that out. Hmmm, there's this great big hole in the ground, and its got all the gooey stuff in it, and I'm going start removing all the gooey stuff with the expectation that I will never be able to empty the hole. You are SOME rocket scientist, which is a good thing, because you still don't know a damn thing about oil. In spite of all I've told you and all you've read, you are still too dumb to see past your own agenda. You see, there are plenty as of yet undiscovered, traditional oil resources around the globe. This says nothing about natural gas and other resources which are really off topic, but since you can't seem to find or stay on a single topic (sigh) I'll play along...again... In fact, if you've read the WHOLE OPEC Report as opposed to zooming straight to the part that interested you - the part that you thought might help you save some face - you would have read this little nugget right here: The WOO also shows that the world has enough oil resources to meet demand and satisfy consumer needs for decades to come. Estimates of ultimately recoverable resources continue to rise. Technology continues to extend its reach, with new areas and plays being opened to exploration and new countries becoming producers. *There will be no shortage of oil for the foreseeable future.* I'm posting this particular part because...uh... THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN TRYING TO BEAT INTO YOUR SILLY LITTLE BRAIN. Let's try it again...only this time I'll ONLY quote a SINGLE sentence from your source of 'evidence' so as to keep it...well...I mean I just can't dumb this down any more: *There will be no shortage of oil for the foreseeable future.* So, according to your 'trusted' source, which I'd like to point out to the group is freaking OPEC, that as far as they can see (this is the foreseeable future) there will be no shortage. No shortage means, I think we can all agree, that supply will pace demand. That's what I've been saying is it not? Have I not been clear and directly to that point? That's what the people I've told you about have been saying. It would seem my sources - those with decades of experience - kinda more or less have a clue huh? How old are you? If you're under 30 then maybe you just haven't had your awakening. If you're over 40 then kill yourself now because you don't have an excuse to be this effing stupid on this or any other topic that truly interests you. Please do NOT reproduce. Now, since the initial debate - before you turned it into a liberal preach about "peak oil" - was about the price of gas, I'm going to quote your source of information again as it pertains to the initial topic: Another challenge relates to the functioning of financial markets. Excessive volatility and excessive speculation remain a concern. Financial markets fulfil critical price discovery and risk transfer roles. But they can be distorted, so that they become detached from supply and demand fundamentals. This was seen in the early part of the year, when *large price fluctuations were driven by speculative activity.* Were you trying to tell me something about "ECON 101"? Didn't I tell you the price for a gallon of gas has as much to do with speculation (and probably more) than anything else, all factors considered as much as is possible? Isn't that pretty much what I said? Didn't you tell me it was all about supply and demand and that speculation had little or nothing to do with it? We need a qualifier I think. Tell me, how much is 2+2? If you're answer isn't 4 then I'm just not sure what to tell you. Maybe the answer is 5 on your planet, but here on Earth, the answer is 4. FOUR. Why, I do believe that's pretty much what I said. Let's all move along...slowly, so Who_Dat_Cat can keep up... Now, let me address this part of your rant: BTW, OPEC's report is based on science and compilation of facts and uses statistical modeling to come up with these numbers and projections. They are not quotes from your ex-brother in law, or other "people you know" who work in the oil industry. In fact what OPEC says right out of the gate is this: Whilst reasonable efforts have been made to ensure the accuracy of the Content of this publication, the OPEC Secretariat makes no warranties or representations as to its accuracy, currency or comprehensiveness and assumes no liability or responsibility for any error or omission and/or for any loss arising in connection with or attributable to any action or decision taken as a result of using or relying on the Content of this publication In other words, we have all this data here, and we've done our best, but the truth is we really don't know. If you real the WHOLE report, you'll see frequently that assumptions are made and in fact are acknowledged. What you want to represent as some end all document (1) really isn't anything of the sort and (2) actually supports just about everything I've been saying, as much as it can be proved, because there IS plenty of assumption going on. The different between you and me is I'm listening to people who have a clue and you're listening to people with an agenda - or misrepresenting data at every turn. Regardless, I think we've learned something here today. I think we've learned that even OPEC says supply of oil will pace demand. I think we've leaned that even OPEC says that speculation is largely responsible for prices. WDC, what I hope you've learned is that I'm not trying to 'spin' anything. I hope you can recognize that I'm simply not going to believe the world is flat, or that the sky is falling, or that we're all going to die just because some politician or political organization or even API or OPEC say so. I want proof. I want substantial evidence, and when that's not possible I want the opinions of qualified people, and I want to hear those qualified people agree, because when they don't agree, I smell an agenda. You understand? Now please, if you want to discuss whether or not we're all going to die because we're running out of oil then start that thread. If you want to discuss global warming (not theoretical carbon omissions from an OPEC report, because most rational people are going to destroy any argument you make about global warming if that's the best you can do) then start that thread. THIS thread was supposed to be about why gas prices are so high. I'm fairly certain you aren't qualified to opine on the subject - no, at this point I'm 100% certain you are not qualified, but knock yourself out if you'd like, but take your liberal agenda on Peak Oil to its own thread were you can get schooled yet again if you'd like. Oh, and have a nice day. mapcow likes this.
	C'mon Man... Last edited by saintfan; 03-21-2012 at 07:26 PM..

03-21-2012, 07:05 PM	#34
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,044 Blog Entries: 29	Originally Posted by WHO_DAT_CAT .... but you can do something about it. First, get educated about this issue and then work hard to reduce your fossil fuel consumption, and reduce your carbon footprint. Then you can support subsidies for energy development of non-carbon-based energy sources. There's way more than your fair share of CO2 emanating from this discussion. I can feel the Global Warming just from this. It's your fault it's 85 degrees in Chicago today. Can you contribute $500 to BnG to offset your carbon footprint? In all seriousness .... Haven't you all had enough yet?

03-21-2012, 07:10 PM	#35
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by SmashMouth There's way more than your fair share of CO2 emanating from this discussion. I can feel the Global Warming just from this. It's your fault it's 85 degrees in Chicago today. Can you contribute $500 to BnG to offset your carbon footprint? In all seriousness .... Haven't you all had enough yet? I never tire of the truth.

03-22-2012, 02:29 AM	#36
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,017	Originally Posted by skymike Oil makes the world go round, honey. Make up all the imaginary white collar capitalist bogeymen you want. For every one of your straw men, there are 1,000 "good" people who have JOBS because of Oil. Everything you use is made of OIL. Everything you need is transported by OIL. If you can catch a ride to work on a unicorn, knock yourself out. Maybe you can fill your tank with rainbows. But if you screw Oil, you screw all of us, and yourself... .... as your Anointed One is about to learn. -- now go back to your indoctrination sources and come tell us some more of your amazing "facts." I don't believe that everything have to be transported by oil, less of all humans. Electric cars are getting rally good. I'd love to have a Chevy Volt or a hybrid like Toyota prius. Sure there will be oil for maybe 30-40 more years but if we all coninue driving like we do today and add that most everybody in India and China will gonna want a car there just will not be enough oil. IMHO the oil that is left is more needed for makine plastics etc than for powering motorcars.

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03-21-2012, 04:44 PM	#32
lee909 Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,793 Blog Entries: 1	Just announce a 3p per litre increase in the uk.

03-22-2012, 07:25 AM	#37
SloMotion 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 6,776 Blog Entries: 15	Originally Posted by Crusader I don't believe that everything have to be transported by oil, less of all humans. Electric cars are getting rally good. I'd love to have a Chevy Volt or a hybrid like Toyota prius. Sure there will be oil for maybe 30-40 more years but if we all coninue driving like we do today and add that most everybody in India and China will gonna want a car there just will not be enough oil. IMHO the oil that is left is more needed for makine plastics etc than for powering motorcars. You make a good point, but electric vehicles are not yet a viable option for the everyday consumer. I worked on the Volt platform and the rest of GM's alternative fuel vehicles and they're not as economical/reliable as GM would have you believe. There has been a lot of pressure from the current Administration on the car companies to rush this technology to market, the result being an inferior, overpriced, under-engineered product. I'd rather have a golf cart then a Volt, seriously, or at least a Nissan Leaf. From my point of view, the entire fuel infrastructure of a region/country is going to have to be uprgraded to allow for efficient, cost effective refueling of alternative fuel vehicles, regardless of what alternative fuel they may use (hydrogen, natural gas, electric), before this method of transportation is ever going to catch on. Myself, personally ... I don't mind taking a bus or using mass-transit and love cities like WashDC, Tokyo, Rome, et... where you can get around basically without having to own a vehicle, but most people want their cars and until it's affordable and convenient, alternative fuel vehicles are for those with the money wanting to make a statement. Raising fuel prices as a means to encourage people to use alternative energy sources, which I feel is what they're basically doing now, when they are not economically available to the masses does the exact opposite. As fuel prices rise, I see people just spending a larger portion of their budgets on fuel and cutting back on more and more on other necessities. It's getting rough out here. saintfan likes this.

03-22-2012, 08:45 AM	#38
foreverfan 12,000 BS Posts Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Metairie, LA Posts: 13,457 Blog Entries: 5	Coming to a town near you. Face it... your dollar won't by anything anymore. Wait till they try to pay off the 15 trillion debt with inflated dollars. The system will crash worse than 2008. Once the world wakes up and believe me they will, and stop taking the dollar, the federal reserve is going to add zeros to certain peoples bank accounts (called printing money only easier) and own the rest of the country.

03-22-2012, 10:43 AM	#39
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by Crusader I don't believe that everything have to be transported by oil, less of all humans. Electric cars are getting rally good. I'd love to have a Chevy Volt or a hybrid like Toyota prius. Sure there will be oil for maybe 30-40 more years but if we all coninue driving like we do today and add that most everybody in India and China will gonna want a car there just will not be enough oil. IMHO the oil that is left is more needed for makine plastics etc than for powering motorcars. I agree that alternative sources should be developed and implemented, but have you seen what they do to the environment mining for the materials to make batteries for electric cars? Those sites look like moonscapes, and the batteries themselves only last (we think) about three years. Those discarded batteries become hazardous waste. It still takes oil to build them. Perhaps there is a net gain in CO2 emissions from people driving their gas-powered cars, but I'm not sure it would be substantial enough all things considered. And those battery manufactures will be getting all kinds of subsidies from the government just like oil companies. They already are. Lithium is the way this will go, and mining for lithium - or anything else for that matter - is brutal on the environment...brutal...period...not up for debate. Nearly half the world's supply that we are aware of is in South America. The new "middle east"? Who knows? As is the case with any other natural resource, the supply of lithium is not endless. I guess my point is that electric cars sooth the liberal agenda as it relates to those big 'ol bad 'ol mean 'ol oil companies, but they aren't the end all be all either. Many if not all of the problems with the oil industry will migrate to lithium or whatever else is derived because the root cause for those issues will not have been changed. There ARE ramifications, and they are not petty. I ride a motorcycle and have considered the 'electric' options, but they're too heavy, don't go fast enough, and don't last long enough on a charge... It's not as easy as some want to believe. SloMotion likes this.
	C'mon Man...

03-22-2012, 06:34 PM	#40
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,044 Blog Entries: 29	Originally Posted by saintfan I agree that alternative sources should be developed and implemented, but have you seen what they do to the environment mining for the materials to make batteries for electric cars? Those sites look like moonscapes, and the batteries themselves only last (we think) about three years. Those discarded batteries become hazardous waste. It still takes oil to build them. Perhaps there is a net gain in CO2 emissions from people driving their gas-powered cars, but I'm not sure it would be substantial enough all things considered. And those battery manufactures will be getting all kinds of subsidies from the government just like oil companies. They already are. Lithium is the way this will go, and mining for lithium - or anything else for that matter - is brutal on the environment...brutal...period...not up for debate. Nearly half the world's supply that we are aware of is in South America. The new "middle east"? Who knows? As is the case with any other natural resource, the supply of lithium is not endless. I guess my point is that electric cars sooth the liberal agenda as it relates to those big 'ol bad 'ol mean 'ol oil companies, but they aren't the end all be all either. Many if not all of the problems with the oil industry will migrate to lithium or whatever else is derived because the root cause for those issues will not have been changed. There ARE ramifications, and they are not petty. I ride a motorcycle and have considered the 'electric' options, but they're too heavy, don't go fast enough, and don't last long enough on a charge... It's not as easy as some want to believe. And China is buying all all resources of Lithium it can !!!