Pats’ Robert Kraft wants NFL team in London: “We’re starting to tap out in the U.S.”

Crusader · 06-29-2012, 08:51 AM

Actually you guys are kinda wrong about the interest in europe. The NFL has a massive fanbase over here but the interest in the local teams are not that great. NFL Europe however was a different story, the quiality of the product was so high that interest was high too. It was not a mere attraction but had a big and devoted following. The last year of th leauges existance they set attendence records in all 5 German cities. Frankfurt had an average attendance of over 30,000 in 2007. Average attendance that year for the whole leauge was 20,020. The last World Bowl played in 2007 had 48,125 people in the stands.

NFL Europa/Cessation of operations
The league's final logoOn 11 September 2006, NFL Europe officially re-branded itself as NFL Europa to reflect the name used for Europe in most European languages. Informally, the name "NFL Europe" continued to be used in the United States, including for the league's English-language Web site, nfleurope.com.

On 29 June 2007, NFL officials announced that the league would be disbanded effective immediately,[1] calling the decision a sound business move that will allow for a stronger international focus on regular-season games outside the United States.

The announcement came less than a week after the Hamburg Sea Devils beat the Frankfurt Galaxy 37–28 in World Bowl XV in Frankfurt in front of a crowd of 48,125.

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell thanked the fans for their support but said it was time to develop a new international strategy, terming the move to fold NFL Europa the "best business decision." The league reportedly was losing about $30 million a season.

The biggest problem the leauge had was spending. It would have been wiser to cut costs and increase revenue instead of folding the leauge.

I played the Europan championships in 2010. They were held in Frankfurt, Germany, and 3 years after the leauge folded the most common jersey in the stands were not one of the national teams there competing but Frankfurt Galaxys purple one. A lot of the German fans I talked to are still longing to get "their" team back. For the Galaxy to disappear for them was as bad as if the Saints would be relocated to LA for example. They are just as passionate.

Like I said, the best thing NFL could do would be to start the leauge again and really focus on getting european players on the field, that would help to fuel the interest and there are many european players playing D1 ball right now so finding them players is not a problem.

pherein · 06-29-2012, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Crusader

Like I said, the best thing NFL could do would be to start the leauge again and really focus on getting european players on the field, that would help to fuel the interest and there are many european players playing D1 ball right now so finding them players is not a problem.

One of the major problems with putting the NFL in europe is you would have to create a entire Conference because of the travel to and from the US, I think.

So their would have to be the..
AFC
NFC
EFC (europe)

with each each team in AFC,NFC, and EFC doing 1 plane trip a season for an away game. This is the only way I see this working, or becoming popular.

Thats 4 Divisions and 16 teams threw out europe. Thats countess billions of dollars as startup. Years to plan and pull off.

In what division do you put 1 or 2 UK teams ?
And I don't see any american taking a UK division of 4 teams seriously , when all they do is play against themselves.

They need to give the small market owners or new owners a shot 1st in canada, mexico, europe, etc.., before they start handing contracts to Jerry Jones, or Kraft. That has monopoly written all over it.

Crusader · 06-29-2012, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by pherein

One of the major problems with putting the NFL in europe is you would have to create a entire Conference because of the travel to and from the US, I think.

So their would have to be the..
AFC
NFC
EFC (europe)

with each each team in AFC,NFC, and EFC doing 1 plane trip a season for an away game. This is the only way I see this working, or becoming popular.

Thats 4 Divisions and 16 teams threw out europe. Thats countess billions of dollars as startup. Years to plan and pull off.

In what division do you put 1 or 2 UK teams ?
And I don't see any american taking a UK division of 4 teams seriously , when all they do is play against themselves.

They need to give the small market owners or new owners a shot 1st in canada, mexico, europe, etc.., before they start handing contracts to Jerry Jones, or Kraft. That has monopoly written all over it.

It was a minor leauge and should be a minor leauge. No need to mix it up with the big boys.

pherein · 06-30-2012, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Crusader

It was a minor leauge and should be a minor leauge. No need to mix it up with the big boys.

I just have to agree with Burn and Tobias on this. The NFL wants a large cash cow foot print and to eventually be the #1 or #2 sport where they decide to go.
They want 60,000- 120,000 seat stadiums filled with fans , and merchandise flying off the shelves.

For this to happen the culture of europe and canada has to buy into the traditions, legions, and history of the NFL. Passing teams down from father to son and daughter. I don't think football being 2nd to soccer is bad. Their is plenty of money to support football and a secondary sport, and soccer stadiums can be used as football stadiums, they are huge,lol.

I just don't see this happening until Germans, french, Italians, and British are packed in a pub or Wirtshaus on draft day waiting for their favorite player from Oxford, Freie Universität Berlin, to come up for draft.

Football is as much as cultural thing as a sport in america. Thanksgiving day traditions and so forth. It just can't be shrink wrapped , like so many american products, and shipped to other countries.
ITs also one of the most complicated and technical sports created. You might be right on this , but I just think a minor league won't fly over there, with only american boys.

I think Burn is right to this probably should be started on the high school level, have the NFL fund European colleges to start programs. Then is 10-20 years try to start some Pro teams. Until then only canada has the culture to support a money cash cow immediately.

burningmetal · 06-29-2012, 11:57 AM

Averaging 30,000 fans might have sounded good to that league, but it isn't close to the average attendance here. I know you guys get way more fans in the stands for soccer than you did for NFL Europe. The point isn't that no one cares over there, but it's that not enough of them do.

Also the majority of the players were NFL players sent over there, almost as a minor league type of deal. So the players weren't very high quality in general, and you weren't really seeing a true european league. That makes it harder for fans to identify with their team when they don't have a lot of their countrymen playing. So it didn't make any sense to keep throwing money down the drain for something that was basically just an NFL minor league. Now, if we include European teams in the real NFL you have to deal with the logistics of crossing the ocean and dealing with jet lag almost every week. Those teams would also have one less day of practice then everyone else because of the incredibly long flight. It would never work.

Brandon428 · 06-29-2012, 01:05 PM

and while I still do because they are cheaters,I don't mind them so much anymore since we pretty much rape them every time we play them. :P

Regarding the games in London,I'm all for it. I've been wanting to go to London for years and what would be more awesome than going to a soccer game and a Saints game while I was there! It would be as if a little piece of L.A. came with me.

Not to mention the games get great support there. Also if they go global maybe they'll have to have a global President/CEO and he'll get rid of Goodell. Hey I can dream!

Crusader · 06-29-2012, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Averaging 30,000 fans might have sounded good to that league, but it isn't close to the average attendance here. I know you guys get way more fans in the stands for soccer than you did for NFL Europe. The point isn't that no one cares over there, but it's that not enough of them do.

Also the majority of the players were NFL players sent over there, almost as a minor league type of deal. So the players weren't very high quality in general, and you weren't really seeing a true european league. That makes it harder for fans to identify with their team when they don't have a lot of their countrymen playing. So it didn't make any sense to keep throwing money down the drain for something that was basically just an NFL minor league. Now, if we include European teams in the real NFL you have to deal with the logistics of crossing the ocean and dealing with jet lag almost every week. Those teams would also have one less day of practice then everyone else because of the incredibly long flight. It would never work.

That attendance was high enough (and increasing) for a minor leauge, spending was the problem.
There is not a problem having american player but having some from europe helps. Compare it to european soccer where a English team might have 2 guys from england and then the rest from everywhere else. Its not the nationality that is important but what club you represent. An like i previously posted, it should only be a minor leauge, that is enough.

dsrdsrdsr · 06-29-2012, 05:56 PM

Speaking as an Englishman:

I don't think nationality matters. We could live with that. What does matter, and would make the whole thing a flop IMO, is that everyone who is interested in American Football in England is already a fan of someone else. A UK New Orleans fan wouldn't become a London fan overnight. Remember that in NFL Europe, the London team dropped out because there wasn't enough support.

The other problem is that we're much more parochial over here. I live 200 miles from London - that probably counts as local in the US, distances are so much greater. It's not local here. If I go to a 4pm kickoff at Wembley on Sunday, I won't be able to get home on the train on Sunday night. And driving, it takes a good two hours to get away from Wembley - the traffic arrangements are hopeless, London was not designed like American cities - and I'd be home well after midnight. Fair enough for a one-off, or I can stay overnight and take a day off work for a one-off, but not all season long.

Also, Wembley cost a fortune to build, way over budget - which means its owners (the Football Association, that's the soccer lot) charge an absolute bomb to rent it out. The annual London games cost about the same in pounds as your games do in dollars, which means translated cost is about half as much again as you pay. That's more than all but the most extreme Premier League soccer, for example.

Finally, a trend - the first London game sold out on the first day the tickets were offered. The second, took a week or two. Last year, there were tickets at face value close to the day of the game. Interest fades as the game gets less special. Certainly it takes a hit because there isn't a home team atmosphere, and lack of atmosphere takes a lot away from the game. But don't rely even on a second London game filling Wembley, let alone a full season's worth.

(I don't think the distance and time difference is an issue. New York to London is only 800 miles further than Los Angeles to Hawaii, and college teams cope with that. You'd just have to make an allowance for west coast teams travelling to London - put the bye week in the right place, something like that.)

Tobias-Reiper · 06-29-2012, 09:17 PM

Originally Posted by Crusader

That attendance was high enough (and increasing) for a minor leauge, spending was the problem.
There is not a problem having american player but having some from europe helps. Compare it to european soccer where a English team might have 2 guys from england and then the rest from everywhere else. Its not the nationality that is important but what club you represent. An like i previously posted, it should only be a minor leauge, that is enough.

Name 1 English team with only 2 English guys in it

And maybe for you a minor league is enough, but that is not what the NFL wants. The NFL wants NFL-type gate (as in NFL-type revenue). They don't want a stadium with 20-30,000 people who bought a ticket the week before... they want PSL owners, and luxury suite owners, people sitting on the bleachers paying $5.00 for bottled water, $10.00 for beer in a plastic cup, $7.50 for nachos, $20.00 for parking... oh! and TV contracts.

If a minor league with 20-30,000 people a game was enough for the NFL, there would still be an NFL Europe, but obviously, since it no longer is, it wasn't enough.

06-29-2012, 08:51 AM	#1
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,046	Actually you guys are kinda wrong about the interest in europe. The NFL has a massive fanbase over here but the interest in the local teams are not that great. NFL Europe however was a different story, the quiality of the product was so high that interest was high too. It was not a mere attraction but had a big and devoted following. The last year of th leauges existance they set attendence records in all 5 German cities. Frankfurt had an average attendance of over 30,000 in 2007. Average attendance that year for the whole leauge was 20,020. The last World Bowl played in 2007 had 48,125 people in the stands. NFL Europa/Cessation of operations The league's final logoOn 11 September 2006, NFL Europe officially re-branded itself as NFL Europa to reflect the name used for Europe in most European languages. Informally, the name "NFL Europe" continued to be used in the United States, including for the league's English-language Web site, nfleurope.com. On 29 June 2007, NFL officials announced that the league would be disbanded effective immediately,[1] calling the decision a sound business move that will allow for a stronger international focus on regular-season games outside the United States. The announcement came less than a week after the Hamburg Sea Devils beat the Frankfurt Galaxy 37–28 in World Bowl XV in Frankfurt in front of a crowd of 48,125. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell thanked the fans for their support but said it was time to develop a new international strategy, terming the move to fold NFL Europa the "best business decision." The league reportedly was losing about $30 million a season. The biggest problem the leauge had was spending. It would have been wiser to cut costs and increase revenue instead of folding the leauge. I played the Europan championships in 2010. They were held in Frankfurt, Germany, and 3 years after the leauge folded the most common jersey in the stands were not one of the national teams there competing but Frankfurt Galaxys purple one. A lot of the German fans I talked to are still longing to get "their" team back. For the Galaxy to disappear for them was as bad as if the Saints would be relocated to LA for example. They are just as passionate. Like I said, the best thing NFL could do would be to start the leauge again and really focus on getting european players on the field, that would help to fuel the interest and there are many european players playing D1 ball right now so finding them players is not a problem.
	W.T. Sherman is my favorite General. After all he did order Atlanta to be burned to the ground.

06-29-2012, 10:15 AM	#2
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by Crusader Like I said, the best thing NFL could do would be to start the leauge again and really focus on getting european players on the field, that would help to fuel the interest and there are many european players playing D1 ball right now so finding them players is not a problem. One of the major problems with putting the NFL in europe is you would have to create a entire Conference because of the travel to and from the US, I think. So their would have to be the.. AFC NFC EFC (europe) with each each team in AFC,NFC, and EFC doing 1 plane trip a season for an away game. This is the only way I see this working, or becoming popular. Thats 4 Divisions and 16 teams threw out europe. Thats countess billions of dollars as startup. Years to plan and pull off. In what division do you put 1 or 2 UK teams ? And I don't see any american taking a UK division of 4 teams seriously , when all they do is play against themselves. They need to give the small market owners or new owners a shot 1st in canada, mexico, europe, etc.., before they start handing contracts to Jerry Jones, or Kraft. That has monopoly written all over it.
	Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009. Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before. Last edited by pherein; 06-29-2012 at 10:33 AM..

06-29-2012, 04:53 PM	#3
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,046	Originally Posted by pherein One of the major problems with putting the NFL in europe is you would have to create a entire Conference because of the travel to and from the US, I think. So their would have to be the.. AFC NFC EFC (europe) with each each team in AFC,NFC, and EFC doing 1 plane trip a season for an away game. This is the only way I see this working, or becoming popular. Thats 4 Divisions and 16 teams threw out europe. Thats countess billions of dollars as startup. Years to plan and pull off. In what division do you put 1 or 2 UK teams ? And I don't see any american taking a UK division of 4 teams seriously , when all they do is play against themselves. They need to give the small market owners or new owners a shot 1st in canada, mexico, europe, etc.., before they start handing contracts to Jerry Jones, or Kraft. That has monopoly written all over it. It was a minor leauge and should be a minor leauge. No need to mix it up with the big boys.

06-30-2012, 07:06 AM	#4
pherein failclownHunter Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: N.O. and V.A. Posts: 2,260 Blog Entries: 3	Originally Posted by Crusader It was a minor leauge and should be a minor leauge. No need to mix it up with the big boys. I just have to agree with Burn and Tobias on this. The NFL wants a large cash cow foot print and to eventually be the #1 or #2 sport where they decide to go. They want 60,000- 120,000 seat stadiums filled with fans , and merchandise flying off the shelves. For this to happen the culture of europe and canada has to buy into the traditions, legions, and history of the NFL. Passing teams down from father to son and daughter. I don't think football being 2nd to soccer is bad. Their is plenty of money to support football and a secondary sport, and soccer stadiums can be used as football stadiums, they are huge,lol. I just don't see this happening until Germans, french, Italians, and British are packed in a pub or Wirtshaus on draft day waiting for their favorite player from Oxford, Freie Universität Berlin, to come up for draft. Football is as much as cultural thing as a sport in america. Thanksgiving day traditions and so forth. It just can't be shrink wrapped , like so many american products, and shipped to other countries. ITs also one of the most complicated and technical sports created. You might be right on this , but I just think a minor league won't fly over there, with only american boys. I think Burn is right to this probably should be started on the high school level, have the NFL fund European colleges to start programs. Then is 10-20 years try to start some Pro teams. Until then only canada has the culture to support a money cash cow immediately. sharke likes this.
	Saints proved that pigs could fly in 2009. Now its time for another miracle SuperBowl and go where no pig has gone before. Last edited by pherein; 06-30-2012 at 07:10 AM..

06-29-2012, 11:57 AM	#5
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Averaging 30,000 fans might have sounded good to that league, but it isn't close to the average attendance here. I know you guys get way more fans in the stands for soccer than you did for NFL Europe. The point isn't that no one cares over there, but it's that not enough of them do. Also the majority of the players were NFL players sent over there, almost as a minor league type of deal. So the players weren't very high quality in general, and you weren't really seeing a true european league. That makes it harder for fans to identify with their team when they don't have a lot of their countrymen playing. So it didn't make any sense to keep throwing money down the drain for something that was basically just an NFL minor league. Now, if we include European teams in the real NFL you have to deal with the logistics of crossing the ocean and dealing with jet lag almost every week. Those teams would also have one less day of practice then everyone else because of the incredibly long flight. It would never work.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

06-29-2012, 01:05 PM	#6
Brandon428 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Lafayette Posts: 158	I used to hate the Patriots... and while I still do because they are cheaters,I don't mind them so much anymore since we pretty much rape them every time we play them. :P Regarding the games in London,I'm all for it. I've been wanting to go to London for years and what would be more awesome than going to a soccer game and a Saints game while I was there! It would be as if a little piece of L.A. came with me. Not to mention the games get great support there. Also if they go global maybe they'll have to have a global President/CEO and he'll get rid of Goodell. Hey I can dream!

06-29-2012, 04:59 PM	#7
Crusader Resident Swede Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Märsta, Sweden Posts: 8,046	Originally Posted by burningmetal Averaging 30,000 fans might have sounded good to that league, but it isn't close to the average attendance here. I know you guys get way more fans in the stands for soccer than you did for NFL Europe. The point isn't that no one cares over there, but it's that not enough of them do. Also the majority of the players were NFL players sent over there, almost as a minor league type of deal. So the players weren't very high quality in general, and you weren't really seeing a true european league. That makes it harder for fans to identify with their team when they don't have a lot of their countrymen playing. So it didn't make any sense to keep throwing money down the drain for something that was basically just an NFL minor league. Now, if we include European teams in the real NFL you have to deal with the logistics of crossing the ocean and dealing with jet lag almost every week. Those teams would also have one less day of practice then everyone else because of the incredibly long flight. It would never work. That attendance was high enough (and increasing) for a minor leauge, spending was the problem. There is not a problem having american player but having some from europe helps. Compare it to european soccer where a English team might have 2 guys from england and then the rest from everywhere else. Its not the nationality that is important but what club you represent. An like i previously posted, it should only be a minor leauge, that is enough.

06-29-2012, 05:56 PM	#8
dsrdsrdsr Registered Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 34	Speaking as an Englishman: I don't think nationality matters. We could live with that. What does matter, and would make the whole thing a flop IMO, is that everyone who is interested in American Football in England is already a fan of someone else. A UK New Orleans fan wouldn't become a London fan overnight. Remember that in NFL Europe, the London team dropped out because there wasn't enough support. The other problem is that we're much more parochial over here. I live 200 miles from London - that probably counts as local in the US, distances are so much greater. It's not local here. If I go to a 4pm kickoff at Wembley on Sunday, I won't be able to get home on the train on Sunday night. And driving, it takes a good two hours to get away from Wembley - the traffic arrangements are hopeless, London was not designed like American cities - and I'd be home well after midnight. Fair enough for a one-off, or I can stay overnight and take a day off work for a one-off, but not all season long. Also, Wembley cost a fortune to build, way over budget - which means its owners (the Football Association, that's the soccer lot) charge an absolute bomb to rent it out. The annual London games cost about the same in pounds as your games do in dollars, which means translated cost is about half as much again as you pay. That's more than all but the most extreme Premier League soccer, for example. Finally, a trend - the first London game sold out on the first day the tickets were offered. The second, took a week or two. Last year, there were tickets at face value close to the day of the game. Interest fades as the game gets less special. Certainly it takes a hit because there isn't a home team atmosphere, and lack of atmosphere takes a lot away from the game. But don't rely even on a second London game filling Wembley, let alone a full season's worth. (I don't think the distance and time difference is an issue. New York to London is only 800 miles further than Los Angeles to Hawaii, and college teams cope with that. You'd just have to make an allowance for west coast teams travelling to London - put the bye week in the right place, something like that.)
dsrdsrdsr Registered Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 34

06-29-2012, 09:17 PM	#9
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Originally Posted by Crusader That attendance was high enough (and increasing) for a minor leauge, spending was the problem. There is not a problem having american player but having some from europe helps. Compare it to european soccer where a English team might have 2 guys from england and then the rest from everywhere else. Its not the nationality that is important but what club you represent. An like i previously posted, it should only be a minor leauge, that is enough. Name 1 English team with only 2 English guys in it And maybe for you a minor league is enough, but that is not what the NFL wants. The NFL wants NFL-type gate (as in NFL-type revenue). They don't want a stadium with 20-30,000 people who bought a ticket the week before... they want PSL owners, and luxury suite owners, people sitting on the bleachers paying $5.00 for bottled water, $10.00 for beer in a plastic cup, $7.50 for nachos, $20.00 for parking... oh! and TV contracts. If a minor league with 20-30,000 people a game was enough for the NFL, there would still be an NFL Europe, but obviously, since it no longer is, it wasn't enough.
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill